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Major Rhymer Question

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In the squadron article Major Rhymer gets the ability:

 

“Friendly squadrons at distance 1 can attack

enemy ships at close-medium range using all

dice in their battery armament.”

 

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2015/2/23/lead-the-fighter-attack/

 

What constitutes battery armament? If they meant only anti-ship dice, why would they say: “using all dice in their battery armament”?

 

On the other hand, letting ships use their anti-squad dice in addition to their anti-ship dice seems over-powered.

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My guess is that this would allow black attack die to be used out to medium range. Still only (generally) rolling one battery dice, but squadrons without blue battery dice can still benefit.

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My bad. Yeah I see that now. He's still not bad though. 50% chance of doing 1 damage, 25% chance of doing 2 vs ships. Corrupter makes them nearly twice the speed of an X-wing.

 

If 2 Tie-Bombers got through on a Frigate or Corvette it would be very bad news of them.

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It does make me wonder if Rhymers ability would trump "engaged" and allow those ships to fire out to medium range regardless of enemy fighter cover. Cards trump rules after all, and it doesn't say anything about them needing to be otherwise eligible to attack.

I'll go with no. Rules state fighter that are engaged may not fire upon ships. So unless the card states you are allowed to so, rulebook stands.

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That's just it, the card does specifically say you may do so, without restrictions. I suspect no, but it sure appears that RAW it would allow you to attack.

 

No, it doesn't. It says you can attack at medium range instead of just close. I mean, it doesn't give any restrictions about WHEN you can attack.. so are we going to assume he lets you attack out of turn order, multiple times, even when already activated? I mean, the card doesn't put any restrictions on that, right?

 

The ability changes the rules for range, and nothing else.

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Inksplat -

I appreciate your position, and suspect that what you are saying is the intended use for the card.  However, you have no authority and we have no definitive answers, your opinion is just that.  Simply stating your opinion in a manner that implies finality does not advance the discussion from either side.  I am attempting to have a conversation here, to elicit a range of substantiated and hopefully different opinions especially since I also believe that Rhymer only changes range.  Fortunately or unfortunately I can see a logical argument against my own position and I am trying to work towards clarity for my own sake.

 

On the topic at hand, the wording is not clear.  Obviously, Rhymer's ability allows us to bypass the range restriction despite the fact that it does not specify "regardless of range restrictions".  Unfortunately, a special ability that would allow ships at Distance 1 to fire regardless of being engaged could read exactly the same way.  For example "Friendly Squadrons at Distance 1 may fire at enemy ships at close range" would be a perfectly legitimate way to word such an ability.

 

We are clearly breaking the "rules" for one restriction, and there is no clarifying wording to show us what other "rules" are or are not excepted.  If it said "Friendly squadrons at distance 1 can attack enemy ships at close-medium range using all dice in their battery armament rather than only at close range" it would be clear that the only exception is range.  If it said "Friendly squadrons at distance 1 can attack enemy ships at close-medium range using all dice in their battery armament regardless of other restrictions" it would be clear that they could fire whether or engaged or not.  Absent those remarks, however, we are doing nothing more than making assumptions about intent.  Unless someone here has some sort of inside information they are willing to share, we are just guessing.  I am sincerely hoping that someone can find an answer/specific rule somewhere that resolves the issue definitively.

Edited by KineticOperator

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Inksplat -

I appreciate your position, and suspect that what you are saying is the intended use for the card.  However, you have no authority and we have no definitive answers, your opinion is just that.  Simply stating your opinion in a manner that implies finality does not advance the discussion from either side.  I am attempting to have a conversation here, to elicit a range of substantiated and hopefully different opinions especially since I also believe that Rhymer only changes range.  Fortunately or unfortunately I can see a logical argument against my own position and I am trying to work towards clarity for my own sake.

 

On the topic at hand, the wording is not clear.  Obviously, Rhymer's ability allows us to bypass the range restriction despite the fact that it does not specify "regardless of range restrictions".  Unfortunately, a special ability that would allow ships at Distance 1 to fire regardless of being engaged could read exactly the same way.  For example "Friendly Squadrons at Distance 1 may fire at enemy ships at close range" would be a perfectly legitimate way to word such an ability.

 

We are clearly breaking the "rules" for one restriction, and there is no clarifying wording to show us what other "rules" are or are not excepted.  If it said "Friendly squadrons at distance 1 can attack enemy ships at close-medium range using all dice in their battery armament rather than only at close range" it would be clear that the only exception is range.  If it said "Friendly squadrons at distance 1 can attack enemy ships at close-medium range using all dice in their battery armament regardless of other restrictions" it would be clear that they could fire whether or engaged or not.  Absent those remarks, however, we are doing nothing more than making assumptions about intent.  Unless someone here has some sort of inside information they are willing to share, we are just guessing.  I am sincerely hoping that someone can find an answer/specific rule somewhere that resolves the issue definitively.

 

By your definition, any restriction not listed on the card doesn't apply. That means, since there is no restriction on when and how often I can attack, all of my squadrons could attack infinite times. Do you see the problem with having to put every restriction on a card? You can't do it. If another rule is not mentioned, it is not broken by the card. Since there is no mention of anything else, it can't override any other rule.

 

We are not guessing. This is how rules work. If the rulebook says "You can't do A, B, or C" and a card says "You can now do A!" it does not means you can also do B and C just because it didn't say you couldn't. That would be dumb, and cards don't have enough space.

 

There is no logical argument to the other side. There is no mention of engagement rules, so it makes no changes to the engagement rules. That is how all games like this are structured.

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Inksplat -

I appreciate your position, and suspect that what you are saying is the intended use for the card.  However, you have no authority and we have no definitive answers, your opinion is just that.  Simply stating your opinion in a manner that implies finality does not advance the discussion from either side.  I am attempting to have a conversation here, to elicit a range of substantiated and hopefully different opinions especially since I also believe that Rhymer only changes range.  Fortunately or unfortunately I can see a logical argument against my own position and I am trying to work towards clarity for my own sake.

 

On the topic at hand, the wording is not clear.  Obviously, Rhymer's ability allows us to bypass the range restriction despite the fact that it does not specify "regardless of range restrictions".  Unfortunately, a special ability that would allow ships at Distance 1 to fire regardless of being engaged could read exactly the same way.  For example "Friendly Squadrons at Distance 1 may fire at enemy ships at close range" would be a perfectly legitimate way to word such an ability.

 

We are clearly breaking the "rules" for one restriction, and there is no clarifying wording to show us what other "rules" are or are not excepted.  If it said "Friendly squadrons at distance 1 can attack enemy ships at close-medium range using all dice in their battery armament rather than only at close range" it would be clear that the only exception is range.  If it said "Friendly squadrons at distance 1 can attack enemy ships at close-medium range using all dice in their battery armament regardless of other restrictions" it would be clear that they could fire whether or engaged or not.  Absent those remarks, however, we are doing nothing more than making assumptions about intent.  Unless someone here has some sort of inside information they are willing to share, we are just guessing.  I am sincerely hoping that someone can find an answer/specific rule somewhere that resolves the issue definitively.

By your definition, any restriction not listed on the card doesn't apply. That means, since there is no restriction on when and how often I can attack, all of my squadrons could attack infinite times. Do you see the problem with having to put every restriction on a card? You can't do it. If another rule is not mentioned, it is not broken by the card. Since there is no mention of anything else, it can't override any other rule.

 

We are not guessing. This is how rules work. If the rulebook says "You can't do A, B, or C" and a card says "You can now do A!" it does not means you can also do B and C just because it didn't say you couldn't. That would be dumb, and cards don't have enough space.

 

There is no logical argument to the other side. There is no mention of engagement rules, so it makes no changes to the engagement rules. That is how all games like this are structured.

 

Good arguments gentlemen,

   Just my opinion, but to weigh in based on my reading of the rules I'm going to say this card makes no change to the engagement rules. I also feel as though it would be unlikely that FFG would release a card intended to make major changes to two separate rules without being much more clear about the intent to do so, and that the card would cost significantly more than it does for that to be the case. Breaking engagement rules in particular would disturb one of the most important balancing rules between ships and squadrons, placing your opponent at a severe disadvantage. Unless I receive further clarification I at least will play that this only effects a fighters range when he is otherwise able to choose a ship as a legal target.

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I would like to point out just how powerful the majors ability is, normal rules say thT squadrens attack at DISTANCE 1 not short range, and I suspect that MEDIUM range is about 3x as far as a normal squadren can shoot, so it is quite significant

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I would like to point out just how powerful the majors ability is, normal rules say thT squadrens attack at DISTANCE 1 not short range, and I suspect that MEDIUM range is about 3x as far as a normal squadren can shoot, so it is quite significant

It is actually about double.

Range 1 is the largest bracket, range 2 is the smallest, range 3-5 are equal.

 

So Range 1 is a little under a 1/3 of the entire length, Range 3 (or Medium Range I believe) is a bit more than half the length.

 

It is still a huge boost though and I will be taking him everywhere :)

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Um, isn't alot of this arguement moot as TIE bombers are HEAVY and can move and/or attack ships when engaged anyway

Re-read heavy, what it means is the tie bomber cannot engage other fighters

I.e. an x-wing at DISTANCE 1 of a bomber is not considered engaged bit the bomber still is, so while the x-wing can do whatever it wants the bomber can only attack the x-wing

If you put a tie advanced squadron (which has escort) with it you could fly past any fighters no problem

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Um, isn't alot of this arguement moot as TIE bombers are HEAVY and can move and/or attack ships when engaged anyway

Re-read heavy, what it means is the tie bomber cannot engage other fighters

I.e. an x-wing at DISTANCE 1 of a bomber is not considered engaged bit the bomber still is, so while the x-wing can do whatever it wants the bomber can only attack the x-wing

If you put a tie advanced squadron (which has escort) with it you could fly past any fighters no problem

 

 

Yep, Heavy is a disadvantage to the bomber, not to other ships. It means that your heavy bombers which pack a punch against capital ships are actually useless at trying to do any sort of fighter screening to protect your own ships. Thats why you also need TIE fighters or TIE interceptors in a list alongside TIE Bombers.

 

Getting back on topic, I also agree that the Major Rhymer card only changes the attack range for friendly squadrons at range one - nowhere does it mention that they should be treated differently under the "rules of engagement".

 

Basically when performing squadron moves and attacks (regardless of via squadron command or in squadron phase) it goes:

Step 1 - check the squadron isnt engaged, if it is then it cannot move and must attack a squadron that is engaging it if possible.

Step 2 - if its not engaged, it can move and/or attack another target within its firing range (depending on when it activated).

 

So Major Rhymer only affects Step 2 here - the squadron must already be unengaged and free to shoot at a capital ship before range even comes into the question.

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If you put a tie advanced squadron (which has escort) with it you could fly past any fighters no problem

 

 

Actually I have to disagree with this part.

 

Escort does not stop fighters from engaging other squadrons, only that they must shoot the escort first.

 

So if you had a squad of X-Wings (Escort, Bomber) a squad of B-Wings (Bomber), a squad of TIE Bombers (Heavy, Bomber), and a squad of TIE Advanced (Escort) say all coming together into range 1 at the same time here is how it would work out. Because they are within range 1 all are engaged and must shoot each other.

 

If the rebels activate first - the X-Wings must shoot the TIE Advanced, because they are escorts.

The B-Wings must also shoot the TIE Advanced because of Escort.

Then the Imperials activate, the TIE Advanced must shoot the X-Wings because of Escort, and the Bombers must shoot the X-Wings because of Escort.

 

Next turn, we assume the TIE Advanceds got blown up by capital ship fire

 

This time we have the X-Wings, B-Wings and TIE Bombers - all are within range 1 so all are still engaged as classed by the rules

The X-Wings and B-Wings again go first, however because the TIE Bombers have the trait (Heavy) they can choose to move or shoot another target instead of the Bombers dispite being engaged by them. If they stay within range 1 of the bombers though, the TIE Bombers must shoot the X-Wings because they are still classed as engaged and have to shoot the escort.

Even if the X-Wings get destroyed, because the B-Wings do not have the heavy trait, they can still trap the TIE Bombers into engagement whilst remaining free to fly off themselves if they so wanted to.

 

If you want to "fly past" like you said then you would need to send your escort seperately ahead of your bombers and engage the fighers to pin them down, then "leapfrog" over the dogfight with your bombers avoiding it entirely. Once they enter the range 1 engagement the bombers cannot leave until it is resolved (or only heavy squadrons remain).

 

Hope that makes it a bit clearer. :)

Edited by MaverickNZ

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If you put a tie advanced squadron (which has escort) with it you could fly past any fighters no problem

 

 

Actually I have to disagree with this part.

 

Escort does not stop fighters from engaging other squadrons, only that they must shoot the escort first.

 

 

 

 

ahh yes you are right, i rememberd the text wrong but you are correct sir

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