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Super Star Destroyer discussion thread

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There's some wisdom about judging a thing by it's size, especially in Star Wars. A bulwark may have a perfectly square base because of how stumpy it is... you think it's not powerful until you realize the dice coming out of one of the arcs might as well be a superlaser. And it would have an absurd number of hull points.

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The funny thing is I can repeat that an ISD is 1,600m long and an Excutor SSD is 19,000m long and no one even looks at those numbers and responds.

Again, ISD 1,600m. SSD 19,000m! If the ISD is 12" in Armada then the SSD would be over 10'!

Should I repeat? No one wants to address this point. You can't ignore it.

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The funny thing is I can repeat that an ISD is 1,600m long and an Excutor SSD is 19,000m long and no one even looks at those numbers and responds.

Again, ISD 1,600m. SSD 19,000m! If the ISD is 12" in Armada then the SSD would be over 10'!

Should I repeat? No one wants to address this point. You can't ignore it.

 

Well, there are a set of problems with your statement.

 

Firstly, the ISD will not be a foot long. It will be less than 20 cm long. So we're down more than a third of your stated length already.

Secondly: "Relative scale". Not a set scale. A relative one. Just like the Tantive and the ISD are not at the same scale, neither will an ISD and an SSD be at the same scale. The idea here is that FFG, since they are good at this, will take a look at the possibilities and choose a scale that is *both* reasonable *and* will allow an SSD to function as a playing piece. (And you can be certain that it will have more than four fire arcs / hull zones, too.) Or they will find out that there is no way to do this, and come up with another cool ship that functions as a centerpiece model.

"Will it sell?" "Yes. Like hot cakes." "Good. Do it."

Either way, your numbers are irrelevant to the outcome. Hence, you, and they, are being ignored.

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The funny thing is I can repeat that an ISD is 1,600m long and an Excutor SSD is 19,000m long and no one even looks at those numbers and responds.

Again, ISD 1,600m. SSD 19,000m! If the ISD is 12" in Armada then the SSD would be over 10'!

Should I repeat? No one wants to address this point. You can't ignore it.

Well, there are a set of problems with your statement.

Firstly, the ISD will not be a foot long. It will be less than 20 cm long. So we're down more than a third of your stated length already.

Secondly: "Relative scale". Not a set scale. A relative one. Just like the Tantive and the ISD are not at the same scale, neither will an ISD and an SSD be at the same scale. The idea here is that FFG, since they are good at this, will take a look at the possibilities and choose a scale that is *both* reasonable *and* will allow an SSD to function as a playing piece. (And you can be certain that it will have more than four fire arcs / hull zones, too.) Or they will find out that there is no way to do this, and come up with another cool ship that functions as a centerpiece model.

"Will it sell?" "Yes. Like hot cakes." "Good. Do it."

Either way, your numbers are irrelevant to the outcome. Hence, you, and they, are being ignored.

LOL. "We don't like facts and want to pretend that they don't exist." That is what you said you know. The numbers stand at 10 times the size! That is the truth.

You could scale it down to only 3 times its size which is round a third of its size but then you are still talking about being too large for the game.

It is huge!!!!!

Also if it is 20cm to start with then we are talking about the SSD being 200cm.

Edited by Beatty

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So I am going by the posters size estimate above. So a SSD unscaled is over 2 meters! Two meters!

Again, how do you scale that reasonably?

For Americans that is 6 1/2'. Even at a third of its scale size it would be over 2'.

Edited by Beatty

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They pretty much HAVE to make the Executor.  I mean... isn't that the POINT of Armada?  To have the huge stuff we couldn't fit in X-Wing?  If not, then what's next?  a 4th Star Wars miniatures game from FFG in a slightly different scale, that launches with a Starter that comes with a 5-inch long SSD, and the first wave's expansion include a basketball sized Death Star?

 

You have to make an SSD, and we ALREADY have a sliding scale, so you are already golden here - just make it big.  Probably the biggest box to date, but somewhere around the size of X-Wings Tantive 4 or Imperial Raider - just a few inches bigger.   Charge $119.99 for it and call it a day. 

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I am starting to see some other reasons why Beatty is being ignored...

Ah, I just started to try to be annoying becuase this part is what is making me bang my head. I have been cool up till this point just to get a straight answer. When I get one I will back down again. (Troll switch s my last resort but I feel I am not insulting anyone personally.)

I will make a deal, tell me how long a SSD should be in game and still have it work and I will tell you how off scale that will be in % and then we can discuss from there level headed again. But no one has tried that approach yet.

Edited by Beatty

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You may hate me for saying this, but the Executor is pretty much certain, as I didn't see an Admiral Piett commander card in the spoiled ISD pics.

So, what is a reasonable length? About 2 feet. Anything much larger and it will bend / break under its own weight and be incredibly cumbersome to move. And yes, based on the normal game size that is half(?) the board. So we can expect a larger play area... Which I think will be bigger than a dining room table.

And yes, I know just how powerful the Executor is. Try playing the Star Wars mod to Sins of a Solar Empire (way better than empire at war btw). The Executor can single handedly take out entire fleets, without even losing shields. It is like a frickin Borg cube powerful. But it will be scale down to around 300 points (unless FFG learned a lesson wih the CR90, in which case I expect somewhere around 1000 points).

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Also, I suppose I should add that actually matches a logarithmic scale (base 10), as the SSD is roughly twice the size of the ISD.

I don't know if this matches the scale difference between the ISD and the CR90 (CR90 twice the size it should be), so who know if it is consistent.

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The funny thing is I can repeat that an ISD is 1,600m long and an Excutor SSD is 19,000m long and no one even looks at those numbers and responds.

Again, ISD 1,600m. SSD 19,000m! If the ISD is 12" in Armada then the SSD would be over 10'!

Should I repeat? No one wants to address this point. You can't ignore it.

But in armada an ISD is not x10 larger than a CR90 because the scale is relative, so yes ill keep ignoring any one who says an SSD model has to be gigantic. As long as its the biggest thing on the table, but still a manageable size, im fine with that.

And as for "epic" games taking several hours. X wing is the only miniature game i know that can be played within an hour. Most of the others usually go much longer. I wouldnt mind a 4 hour game of armada.

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The base game is already off scale. Slavishly cling to this concept that because an SSD is over 10 times as long as an ISD that a model of the former would be 10 times the size of the later, is silly. Infact it be foolish to assert the scale you continue to assert.

An ISD is over 10 times the length of a CR90. We know the ISD model is not that large. Therefore, again, why are you continually asserting a accurate scale when you know the game doesn't follow it?

Just because your "facts" are facts doesn't mean they are relevant facts, because you are repeatedly ignoring other information.

Edited by ScottieATF

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I still doudt there will be "epic armada" I mean epic x-wing really wasn't that much of a success and the game is all ready suppose to take between 1 & 2 hours so an epic armada even with only 5-600 points would still likely take twice that!

and a 4 hour game is not a realistic expectation for ffg to realease,

You have no basis to assert that. Epic X-wing is at least successful enough that they have released not one, not two, but now 3 products for it. Whether it gets played frequently is another matter, but the product sells enough to warrent introducing more to that line.

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I am starting to see some other reasons why Beatty is being ignored...

 

I'm not ignoring Beatty. Clearly you aren't either. Let's not have a tiff over the plastic spaceships, okay? We can disagree as friends.

 

In the rulebook, FFG explicitly says that it is applying a relative scale. So, a constant scale is out of the question - an SSD does not have to be 6'6", or however long it would be compared to other models at the scale they already seem to have.

 

I don't know if that means that they're just applying a rule of thumb and coming up with their model sizes arbitrarily ("that looks about right"), or if they have a continuous (curvi)linear function that has the scale getting smaller as the ship gets bigger. Because I'm an OCD Loremonger, I hope the latter.

 

But let's assume they're just going by an arbitrary rule of thumb that gauges by how it looks. Obviously, opinions are going to differ on that one. So, what are our opinions on:

  1. What would look right
  2. What would be playable

If either of those conditions cannot be met simultaneously, then the SSD is a no-go.

 

For my part, if the ISD is going to be the length that MaverickNZ predicts (25cm ~ 10in - which is badass, IMO, even if it isn't swallowing up the CR-90 into its bay), then for my sense of looking right, the SSD would have to be at least 3' (91.4cm) long. I can't imagine that being playable.

 

But maybe MaverickNZ's calculations are wrong. I can see a 2' (61cm) model being playable. Sure, maneuvering isn't going to be a big part of your strategy, but it would be playable on a 3x6 playing space.

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You may hate me for saying this, but the Executor is pretty much certain, as I didn't see an Admiral Piett commander card in the spoiled ISD pics.

So, what is a reasonable length? About 2 feet. Anything much larger and it will bend / break under its own weight and be incredibly cumbersome to move. And yes, based on the normal game size that is half(?) the board. So we can expect a larger play area... Which I think will be bigger than a dining room table.

And yes, I know just how powerful the Executor is. Try playing the Star Wars mod to Sins of a Solar Empire (way better than empire at war btw). The Executor can single handedly take out entire fleets, without even losing shields. It is like a frickin Borg cube powerful. But it will be scale down to around 300 points (unless FFG learned a lesson wih the CR90, in which case I expect somewhere around 1000 points).

Ok, this is something I can work with.

So two feet is a reasonable length for a model in this game, but remember that will mean it will be less than a third of its size to scale with the ISD. That is a pretty huge difference in scale. That is kind of too much off scale for me and my taste. If this is good for you and others than the issue is not logic but an aesthetic issue. I just don't think must people know how much off the scale is though being less than a third of the size it should be, becuase it would be very noticeable.

Mind you I do do do love the SSD and would love one on my self but scale is still a concern

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It'd be neat if it happened but it's tough for me to say it's a shoe-in.

 

A scaled down, 2 foot Executor for Armada seems about as likely as a 2 foot Star Destroyer in X Wing - and most people on the X Wing boards will say that we'll never see an ISD because the scale will be so far off compared to the other ships it would look silly. But it also doesn't look bad at like 2x-3x the size of a ISD.. you can see here below if compare the one in the foreground to the SSD.

 

Executor_and_escorts.jpg

 

 

If we start talking bigger than 2 feet for the Executor you start running into other problems concerning shipping and production costs for FFG and then problems for having a game piece that's more cumbersome to move for players. More importantly, it threatens to take up too much space on a game table and messes with gameplay. Ultimately, it depends if the relative size of a ship that big compared to the other ships is something that looks and play tests right to FFG. 

 

Although, what is interesting to me is that the ISD is something like 8 inches, and has only a $40-60 price tag (I forget exactly). This to me, more than anything, says they have plans for making larger pieces. We know they can considering the X Wing huge ships. Will that be an SSD? Hard to say for me, but I'm fairly certain there are other Star Destroyer types that are larger than the ISD but not as big as the SSD.. but that's another topic of discussion. 

 

 

Edit: Added a bit about speculation.. I'm willing to bet we'll see a new Imperial super weapon ship or a new kind of improved Star Destroyer in The Force Awakens. I'm sure FFG is already working on something cool for Armada.

Edited by jonnyboy0121

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It'd be neat if it happened but it's tough for me to say it's a shoe-in.

 

A scaled down, 2 foot Executor for Armada seems about as likely as a 2 foot Star Destroyer in X Wing - and most people on the X Wing boards will say that we'll never see an ISD because the scale will be so far off compared to the other ships it would look silly. But it also doesn't look bad at like 2x-3x the size of a ISD.. you can see here below if compare the one in the foreground to the SSD.

 

Executor_and_escorts.jpg

 

 

If we start talking bigger than 2 feet for the Executor you start running into other problems concerning shipping and production costs for FFG and then problems for having a game piece that's more cumbersome to move for players. More importantly, it threatens to take up too much space on a game table and messes with gameplay. Ultimately, it depends if the relative size of a ship that big compared to the other ships is something that looks and play tests right to FFG. 

 

Although, what is interesting to me is that the ISD is something like 8 inches, and has only a $40-60 price tag (I forget exactly). This to me, more than anything, says they have plans for making larger pieces. We know they can considering the X Wing huge ships. Will that be an SSD? Hard to say for me, but I'm fairly certain there are other Star Destroyer types that are larger than the ISD but not as big as the SSD.. but that's another topic of discussion. 

 

 

I think its more likely that we see a SSD in armada than a ISD in x wing. 

 

 

i also like this picture here too!

 

10 inches is about the size of the x wing rebel transport right, so the ISD would be about the same size? I think?

(I personally) wouldnt mind if the SSD was as big the x wing CR90. About what? 14'' long? Though I hope it would be a little bigger. 2ft however, I think that is getting to big to be manageable. Maybe something more between 18"-20". So it wouldnt quite be x2 the ISD, but you gotta remember its going to be wider too, which will help give the feeling of "massive" even though its quite small relatively.

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But let's assume they're just going by an arbitrary rule of thumb that gauges by how it looks. Obviously, opinions are going to differ on that one. So, what are our opinions on:

  1. What would look right
  2. What would be playable

If either of those conditions cannot be met simultaneously, then the SSD is a no-go.

I think the most likely reason would be number two, given the scale of damage output an SSD would generate*.  I don't think that FFG would have a problem creating a scale model of an SSD that would appeal to some majority of the player population.

 

* This assumes the lack of an 'epic'-style system, although I think it would have to be a different mechanic relative to X-Wing's.

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Well this has certainly been a lively discussion :)

 

So In trying to make an average sliding scale formula, I need the actual lengths (in mm preferred) of whatever ships we know the length of. Anyone have a good reference?

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I think some people are putting the Executor on a pedestal. There's a lot of EU material that talk about how tough the SSDs are and how many ships they are equivalent to. But all that is questionable - writers take various liberties with base material in order to craft their own take on Star Wars and make an interesting story.

I see two major objections to the SSD: power-scale and size-scale.

So lets look at what we know is canon, and the only scene in which an SSD fights: From RotJ, we know that it fights in the fleet action, and that it is important enough to single out as a target, and that when a small Rebel fleet focused their firepower on it, it went down. Based on that, I would say that power-wise it would fit well in a larger scale "Epic Armada" format. The Rebel fleet wasn't huge, but it was still able to focus fire down an SSD, while still being engaged with a much larger fleet and having the DSII taking out some of their most powerful vessels. So it seems to me that it is powerful, but not so powerful that it can't be represented in Armada.

Next is the size scale. We already know that Armada is on a sliding scale. Most people seem to think of it as a linear relation, but as someone earlier pointed out, the data points we have conform quite nicely to a logarithmic scale, and it also makes more sense when you're talking many orders of magnitude difference in the size of the things being modeled.

Here is my slightly different take on the size of an actual SSD model in Armada - by starting with the CR90 in X-wing. If we take the CR90 to be roughly 4"x12", giving an area of 48 sq.in. The play area of X-Wing is 36" x 36", for an area of 1296. The CR90 takes up ~3.7% of the total play space. If we reverse that for Armada play space of 36" x 72" = 2592 sq. in., 3.7% of which is 96 sq. in. of area. Now, pick some reasonable lengths, say 15 or 16 inches and we get 15" x 6.4" or 16" x 6". These seem like reasonable numbers to me - yes, this will be a large, expensive piece, but it won't be setting any records for the miniature games market.

Since we have cleared up the "large base typo", we know that the ISD model is probably between 5 and 6 inches long (129mm ~= 5 inches, plus some overhang), that makes the model of the SSD between two and three times larger than an ISD model. This is pretty much what one would expect when dealing with a logarithmic scale.

For some people, this is not enough of a size difference. However, I have another idea to alleviate this problem as well - it will require a slightly more beefy structure on the base, but we simply elevate the SSD model more than other models. This creates a forced perspective for someone looking down at the table, and causes the SSD to appear larger in relation to the other ships.

Hadn't intended for this to be a treatise when I started, but it's out there now, let me know what you think. I can go into more details on what I think the rules for it should be :) 



 

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