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Super Star Destroyer discussion thread

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Norse, totally sidestepping my question helps prove the dubiousness of aspects of the pro-SDDer argument.

I would suggest that old EU sources matter in the game for the following reasons:

Isane Isard, Garm Bel Iblis, Adar Tallon and a bunch of other EU characters are in the game.

Victory SDs were never in any movie and are complete EU creations, but they are in the game.

MC-30s are EU, but they are in the game.

Should I go on? Now that pre-Episode VII EU is clearly established as relevant in this game, can we please address the scaling of Executor class weapons and capabilities without further obfuscation?

And, based on WWII warships, which Star Wars ships are clearly based on leads to some conclusions. Ships of the size that correlates to Executor were always major fleet units with considerable capabilities. An Executor with low abilities beggars the imagination and brings us back to why even have such a pointless ship in the game.

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Son0fGun, the Executor is 19,000m not 8,000m. That's from the canon of Lucus Films.

And wait, the VSD is only 900m? I thought it was at 11,000-12,000m for some reason.

Eh. I'm getting sick of canon. George Lucas is a ****** and we're squabbling over poop. According to my book it's 8000m, but perhaps I should consult Wookiepedia cuz I'll believe anything the internet tells me.

Cheers and blech

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Norse, totally sidestepping my question helps prove the dubiousness of aspects of the pro-SDDer argument.

I would suggest that old EU sources matter in the game for the following reasons:

Isane Isard, Garm Bel Iblis, Adar Tallon and a bunch of other EU characters are in the game.

Victory SDs were never in any movie and are complete EU creations, but they are in the game.

MC-30s are EU, but they are in the game.

Should I go on? Now that pre-Episode VII EU is clearly established as relevant in this game, can we please address the scaling of Executor class weapons and capabilities without further obfuscation?

And, based on WWII warships, which Star Wars ships are clearly based on leads to some conclusions. Ships of the size that correlates to Executor were always major fleet units with considerable capabilities. An Executor with low abilities beggars the imagination and brings us back to why even have such a pointless ship in the game.

Now hold on here. You have great points but let's keep it civil too. I doubt he is purposely trying to insult you personally and maybe he doesn't have a direct position on this yet.

He stands by his postion and he is allowed to, even if you two disagree.

Also let's never never suggest the Executor SSD is pointless. Them fighting words. :P

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Beatty,

Im not trying to be rude or anything like that. Im just trying to get an answer to my question. That is one unfortunate thing about writing in forums. Without facial expressions and tone of voice, pressing a point can be misconstrued as hostility. Far from it. I just want an honest, reasoned and forthright answer to my question. And no one seems willing to give it. :-/

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Yeah. I guess 19km so 19000m. Not according to my book from 14 years ago. Also *5000 gun emplacements for the character who brought up weapons.

K. I don't care anymore. This poops so crapped and I'm actually starting to not like the game anymore cuz it's so all over the place. At least X-Wing players should rejoice. A more convoluted game arises.

Scale is an issue for me now, not to mention Tourneys are gonna be crap with squad placing, damage, shields, bump, woops. Feel more frustrated with this one.

I think I may just cut my losses, go back to X-Wing and Fly Casual. Even Battlestar Galactica isn't this stoopid.

Later y'all

Edited by Son0fGun

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Beatty,

Im not trying to be rude or anything like that. Im just trying to get an answer to my question. That is one unfortunate thing about writing in forums. Without facial expressions and tone of voice, pressing a point can be misconstrued as hostility. Far from it. I just want an honest, reasoned and forthright answer to my question. And no one seems willing to give it. :-/

Ok, sorry there was misunderstanding here. Just would like to see this topic on a freindly discussion since we are all Armada junkies and our fellow forum members are going to be those who understand us the most. Glad to know that the tone was not an upset one.;) Edited by Beatty

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Sonofgun i presume your using the West End Games rpg imperial Sourcebook for the SSD size yes?

i recently discovered they are responsible for a great deal of ship size misconception in star wars due to them pulling numbers out their ass. They give the SSD at 8000 or half its actual size and the Home One at around 1500 meters or just below half its size.

The SSD argument was long ago settled, unfortunately for I the popular, though wrong, view is that the home one is 1200-1500 meters.

But yea the SSD is most Def 19Km and dont sweat it too much :) its just bigger ships that have these massive scale issues XD

Edited by Lurtz

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Hey Son0fGun, don't let the SSD discussion get to you. It has been around for a while and that is why we are trying to keep it down and not to let others Tarkin more threads. It's a no win topic.

Honestly Beatty. I feel like I'm playing micro-machines vs Matchbox vs Tonka vs Power Wheels at this point. I love Star Wars and X-Wing, but between the cost of another, the wild irregularities and the early frustration, I don't think I'm going to enjoy this one.

Carry on.

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Hey Son0fGun, don't let the SSD discussion get to you. It has been around for a while and that is why we are trying to keep it down and not to let others Tarkin more threads. It's a no win topic.

Honestly Beatty. I feel like I'm playing micro-machines vs Matchbox vs Tonka vs Power Wheels at this point. I love Star Wars and X-Wing, but between the cost of another, the wild irregularities and the early frustration, I don't think I'm going to enjoy this one.

Carry on.

Really? You must have played a different game then me...

Remember it is newly born and wave 1 hasn't even hit yet, (kinda of like saying x-wing sucks and feels underdeveloped because you only played with the core set)

Edited by clontroper5

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Norse, totally sidestepping my question helps prove the dubiousness of aspects of the pro-SDDer argument.

I would suggest that old EU sources matter in the game for the following reasons:

Isane Isard, Garm Bel Iblis, Adar Tallon and a bunch of other EU characters are in the game.

Victory SDs were never in any movie and are complete EU creations, but they are in the game.

MC-30s are EU, but they are in the game.

Should I go on? Now that pre-Episode VII EU is clearly established as relevant in this game, can we please address the scaling of Executor class weapons and capabilities without further obfuscation?

And, based on WWII warships, which Star Wars ships are clearly based on leads to some conclusions. Ships of the size that correlates to Executor were always major fleet units with considerable capabilities. An Executor with low abilities beggars the imagination and brings us back to why even have such a pointless ship in the game.

 

Now that I'm not staring a Midterm in the face maybe I can debate this point a bit better.

 

Thalor, I'm looking back to Post 170. You're saying the stats and capabilities of the Executor make it too powerful to be a playing piece, correct?

 

As with all things in this tabletop game I think balance as a play-piece is going to trump stat representation. There will be a base, it will be called an Executor, and these are the dice pools it is given. Now let's test it a few times to see if it utterly destroys a target, how quickly, and is that going to be okay moving forward in the game with? As long as it is suitably effective enough and cost enough points to call an Executor, so shall it be.

 

I can imagine opponents of the SSD in-game saying, "It isn't a proper executor if it is not one-shotting medium ships as it should". Whether it will or not depends on if FFG wants to allow something like that, and my guess is, not. The Executor is supposed to be a huge space battle barge with frightening weapons but the most I'd expect out of it is stripping shields in one blast, possibly two-shotting medium ships if it has decent arcs. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if it had a Star Destroyer front arc with some victory arcs split across two side arcs or something.

 

I'd imagine a proper Executor will be able to do things like activate two attacks out of each half of the ship (similar to X-Wing epics in a way) but with modest dice amounts instead of one overwhelming barrage of fire. While it limits the SSD's offensive capabilities and doesn't have the terrifying laser fist one would expect, it presents the image of a balanced SSD that potentially has the firepower EU sources describe. Two barrages from both bases out of the same side of the ship and at the same target can have some devastating potential and represent the Super Star Destroyer fairly, I think.

 

Apart from the dice pools... hangar space is not a thing with this game. You have a command rating on fighters but that's it, so it's really worth asking "How many fighters would we expect the flagship to activate on this order?" Points is another thing. Perhaps an Executor could allow you to exceed the 1/3rd point limit on fighters... but you still have to pay for them.

 

We're having Tractor beams coming in the Imperial Star Destroyer pack aren't we? Depending on how they work (and how many offensive structure upgrades are on the SSD) will determine if tractor beams are as dangerous of a thing as "they should be".

Edited by Norsehound

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Norse, totally sidestepping my question helps prove the dubiousness of aspects of the pro-SDDer argument.

I would suggest that old EU sources matter in the game for the following reasons:

Isane Isard, Garm Bel Iblis, Adar Tallon and a bunch of other EU characters are in the game.

Victory SDs were never in any movie and are complete EU creations, but they are in the game.

MC-30s are EU, but they are in the game.

Should I go on? Now that pre-Episode VII EU is clearly established as relevant in this game, can we please address the scaling of Executor class weapons and capabilities without further obfuscation?

And, based on WWII warships, which Star Wars ships are clearly based on leads to some conclusions. Ships of the size that correlates to Executor were always major fleet units with considerable capabilities. An Executor with low abilities beggars the imagination and brings us back to why even have such a pointless ship in the game.

 

Now that I'm not staring a Midterm in the face maybe I can debate this point a bit better.

 

Thalor, I'm looking back to Post 170. You're saying the stats and capabilities of the Executor make it too powerful to be a playing piece, correct?

 

As with all things in this tabletop game I think balance as a play-piece is going to trump stat representation. There will be a base, it will be called an Executor, and these are the dice pools it is given. Now let's test it a few times to see if it utterly destroys a target, how quickly, and is that going to be okay moving forward in the game with? As long as it is suitably effective enough and cost enough points to call an Executor, so shall it be.

 

I can imagine opponents of the SSD in-game saying, "It isn't a proper executor if it is not one-shotting medium ships as it should". Whether it will or not depends on if FFG wants to allow something like that, and my guess is, not. The Executor is supposed to be a huge space battle barge with frightening weapons but the most I'd expect out of it is stripping shields in one blast, possibly two-shotting medium ships if it has decent arcs. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if it had a Star Destroyer front arc with some victory arcs split across two side arcs or something.

 

I'd imagine a proper Executor will be able to do things like activate two attacks out of each half of the ship (similar to X-Wing epics in a way) but with modest dice amounts instead of one overwhelming barrage of fire. While it limits the SSD's offensive capabilities and doesn't have the terrifying laser fist one would expect, it presents the image of a balanced SSD that potentially has the firepower EU sources describe. Two barrages from both bases out of the same side of the ship and at the same target can have some devastating potential and represent the Super Star Destroyer fairly, I think.

 

Apart from the dice pools... hangar space is not a thing with this game. You have a command rating on fighters but that's it, so it's really worth asking "How many fighters would we expect the flagship to activate on this order?" Points is another thing. Perhaps an Executor could allow you to exceed the 1/3rd point limit on fighters... but you still have to pay for them.

 

We're having Tractor beams coming in the Imperial Star Destroyer pack aren't we? Depending on how they work (and how many offensive structure upgrades are on the SSD) will determine if tractor beams are as dangerous of a thing as "they should be".

Now this is what I was looking for. Funny you mention midterms. Im about to start grading some. Your not taking a history class in San Diego are you?

First off, yes, I do think the stats make the Executor SSD too powerful for the game. Now, if we take it down to an Alliegance SSD, the stats seem less brdensome to make playable, but still. My thought is that if you look at the difference between the VSD and the ISD, the capabilities are pretty dramatic. The same should be true of the SSD.

But, lets take your premise for a second: we have a model on a base described as "Executor" with the capabilities you outlined. Here are the problems I still have with it:

1) How do the Rebels compete with it? If the piece is going to be in the game, you need opponents willing to play against it. Do we break out the chedder block and carve up something for the Rebels? Does the game simply become too silly at this point? I'm serious about this. At a certain point, with too many FFG invention ships in the game, it ceases to be Star Wars and becomes something else.

2) Size of the model. Im not talking about the scale, but the size. If the model is 15 inches to 2 feet (which seems to be the size parameters most people are talking) does the piece then become more trouble than it's worth. People already talk about how fiddly the fighters are, but what about this monster model that takes up a large percentage of the board. So much so, that other models would frequently end thier moves on the SSD's base, even when precautions were taken otherwise. This is not like X-wing. Ramming exists in this game. I think with something like this, the game will be reduced to Bumper Cars. Besides this, the affordability of the model. How much will the dern thing cost? Will anyone even be able to afford it? For that matter, can FFG manufacture it and make it avaialble in a way that retailers will be willing to dedicate the shelf space for it? I see marketing problems here out the Wazoo. I really do think the ISD may be the near, if not the, upper limit of what retailers may be willing to deal with. Think of the shelf space in your favorite FLGS. Can you picture the shelf space dedicated to the game, expansions, plus copies of an Executor? Other product would have to go. And from a retailers POV, why carry 3 or 4 executor models that take the space of a dozen or two expansions that sale much better? I think size alone kills this thing, but maybe you might have a reasonable counter point.

3) I like your idea about the percentage of points being adjusted to allow the extra fighters an SSD would carry. The down side of it is though, again, how to make the Rebels competitive?

Again, Im saying all this as someone who will kitbash an Alliegence Class SSD eventually. I do want an SSD. I just don't see how its possible. Honestly, I would have made the base scale much smaller so an SSD of 1 foot would have been a very reasonable model.

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"As long as it is suitably effective enough and cost enough points to call an Executor, so shall it be."

 

I am not sure how one can go from 100 some laser batteries on an ISD, to 4000 batteries and not have a side arc attack die pool of at least 120 die, and still call the ship an Executor.  12 die in the attack pool is only a 90% reduction in its firepower relative to an ISD.   Scaling the ship in size is one thing.  Then neutering in an ever more ludicrous manner just so this ship can fit in a game without killing the game?  Then, so one player can have his pretty model, the opposing player would need a 600-1800 point fleet just to match that pretty model?

Edited by wjgo

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But im saying that a scaled down SSD would look nice.

If all you want is a scaled down model of the Executor, I can direct you to the website of a guy who makes garage kits that are a little more than a foot long. They are highly detailed and look fantastic. PM me for the info.

What those of us on the other side are saying is, no, it wont look nice. It will look utterly silly. Think about this for a second: When we first see the Executor in ESB, its shadow overwhelms some ISDs. As the camera pans back, we see a massive ship. One so huge it is clear that several ISDs can fit in its cavernous hanger bay. The size ratio between an SSD and an ISD is even greater than an ISD and a CR90. Along with that is at least a proportional, if not exponential, increase in offenive and defensive weaponry, fighter carrying ability and other things.

How can that possibly be represented in any kind of serious way in this game? Especially with no known Rebel counterpart. To make it playable it won't, correction: it CAN NOT BE the Executor we saw in ESB. It will have to be a ship easily taken out by gimmicky plot devices like an out of control A-wing... Still upset about that by the way. That could only have been worse if Jar-Jar had been piloting the A-wing....

 

I was so pissed when the destruction of 1 of 4 redundant bridges took out the Executor. ugh. 

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But im saying that a scaled down SSD would look nice.

If all you want is a scaled down model of the Executor, I can direct you to the website of a guy who makes garage kits that are a little more than a foot long. They are highly detailed and look fantastic. PM me for the info.

What those of us on the other side are saying is, no, it wont look nice. It will look utterly silly. Think about this for a second: When we first see the Executor in ESB, its shadow overwhelms some ISDs. As the camera pans back, we see a massive ship. One so huge it is clear that several ISDs can fit in its cavernous hanger bay. The size ratio between an SSD and an ISD is even greater than an ISD and a CR90. Along with that is at least a proportional, if not exponential, increase in offenive and defensive weaponry, fighter carrying ability and other things.

How can that possibly be represented in any kind of serious way in this game? Especially with no known Rebel counterpart. To make it playable it won't, correction: it CAN NOT BE the Executor we saw in ESB. It will have to be a ship easily taken out by gimmicky plot devices like an out of control A-wing... Still upset about that by the way. That could only have been worse if Jar-Jar had been piloting the A-wing....

I was so pissed when the destruction of 1 of 4 redundant bridges took out the Executor. ugh.

Story telling man, the Underdog wins in stories.

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Maybe we are jumping ahead here.  In 2018, FFG might release:

 

Star Wars:  Ships of Biblical Proportions

 

The Core Set will include a Yavin Death Star and a Praetor class ship.  The Rebel side will come with an A-Wing, X-Wing and 2 MC80's.  Tsunami 1 would include the Executor and the Viscount.  This time, FFG will include playmats for the required 24 x 72 play area.  FFG will move its gaming center to a basketball court so they have host 4 matches a day over a weekend for tournaments.

 

Because of internet grumbling, FFG will create a TIE Defender Super Class 5 inch model for Tsunami 1, and likewise the Rebels get the Millennium Falcon in a 4 inch model with the ESB paint job. 

Edited by wjgo

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Ok so the rebels had to win, I get it. Root for the freedom fighting underdogs, hence I play rebels because they *should* win.

 

However, my imperialist heart is cheering for the SSD. To comment on the power scale from earlier posts, when the rebel fleet focuses on the SSD (Ackbar croaking "It's at trap" and "Focus all firepower on the SSD" were just blatant statements of the the obvious preluding to the ludicrousness coming with JarJar) the next scene showing the Executor's bridge shows Piett standing unimpressed by the focused attention. Then cue the haphazard plot construct of an out of control A-Wing. (Sidepoint: Did anyone else notice that the SSD which started at the edge of the system ended up crashing into the Death Star after 10 min of "orders not to engage"....)

 

Now Relevant to the topic, rather than jumping straight to the SSD class, FFG could release ships in the Mandator size, large, OP, and 'neutral' as both sides had them. Personally, my group wants to make a scenario map where the ships are fighting above a SSD, like a DS map for X-Wing, just a formative idea.

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Now this is what I was looking for. Funny you mention midterms. Im about to start grading some. Your not taking a history class in San Diego are you?

First off, yes, I do think the stats make the Executor SSD too powerful for the game. Now, if we take it down to an Alliegance SSD, the stats seem less brdensome to make playable, but still. My thought is that if you look at the difference between the VSD and the ISD, the capabilities are pretty dramatic. The same should be true of the SSD.

But, lets take your premise for a second: we have a model on a base described as "Executor" with the capabilities you outlined. Here are the problems I still have with it:

1) How do the Rebels compete with it? If the piece is going to be in the game, you need opponents willing to play against it. Do we break out the chedder block and carve up something for the Rebels? Does the game simply become too silly at this point? I'm serious about this. At a certain point, with too many FFG invention ships in the game, it ceases to be Star Wars and becomes something else.

2) Size of the model. Im not talking about the scale, but the size. If the model is 15 inches to 2 feet (which seems to be the size parameters most people are talking) does the piece then become more trouble than it's worth. People already talk about how fiddly the fighters are, but what about this monster model that takes up a large percentage of the board. So much so, that other models would frequently end thier moves on the SSD's base, even when precautions were taken otherwise. This is not like X-wing. Ramming exists in this game. I think with something like this, the game will be reduced to Bumper Cars. Besides this, the affordability of the model. How much will the dern thing cost? Will anyone even be able to afford it? For that matter, can FFG manufacture it and make it avaialble in a way that retailers will be willing to dedicate the shelf space for it? I see marketing problems here out the Wazoo. I really do think the ISD may be the near, if not the, upper limit of what retailers may be willing to deal with. Think of the shelf space in your favorite FLGS. Can you picture the shelf space dedicated to the game, expansions, plus copies of an Executor? Other product would have to go. And from a retailers POV, why carry 3 or 4 executor models that take the space of a dozen or two expansions that sale much better? I think size alone kills this thing, but maybe you might have a reasonable counter point.

3) I like your idea about the percentage of points being adjusted to allow the extra fighters an SSD would carry. The down side of it is though, again, how to make the Rebels competitive?

Again, Im saying all this as someone who will kitbash an Alliegence Class SSD eventually. I do want an SSD. I just don't see how its possible. Honestly, I would have made the base scale much smaller so an SSD of 1 foot would have been a very reasonable model.

 

 

Nah, I'm taking programming in the SF Bay area.

 

1. Rebel counterparts:

Given that the Empire is going to inevitably favor the bigger ships, I would expect to see a mechanical counter that is very effective against medium ships and larger. Such a counter could be the thing you bring with you to games that you know you're facing a SSD with, but might be useful enough in normal situations. I feel it would be like taking a nebulon Escort cruiser when you're not sure if you're engaging fighters or not.

 

Could be just as simple as, say, a Marauder Corvette with extra long missile batteries. Two evades maybe, a brace for impact, and a redirect. A missile slot and upgrade card for red criticals.

 

Another thought is to how many points an SSD is worth and how many rebel ships can be fielded in that gap. Even if the SSD firing two times from two different bases as I guess it may, the Rebels can still field multiple ships in that space with their own defense tokens and good dice pools, all attacking the same hull area. So a natural rebel counter might as well be more ships, which is how balance pretty much is in the core set now.

 

2. Space and price

When CR-90s were announced we had many people buying them for X-Wing, and we already are in a game with a $100 starter. Depending on how long they scale the SUper Star Destroyer it may very well be another $100 set to add to the game. But you know with that addition there will be a lot of goodies... after all, the CR-90 gave us a campaign system and the rules to epic. It stands to reason the SSD will add more things to the game too, beyond its model.

 

As for collisions and unpleasantness with base size, I honestly still feel that this isn't a new problem. If you've packed your list with three VSDs you're going to face the same issue as if you brought a longer-base SSD. Only difference is you're activating two different halves of that super ship, and you're giving the opponent the chance to get in between it. With ramming I don't see it as an Imperial concern most of the time because their hull values are much, much higher than the typical run-of-the-mill rebels. So if the Rebels do want to kamikazie the Super Star Destroyer, I say let them. Just bank some engineering commands and fix whatever damage they try to do against the enormous hull value I'd expect the SSD to have.

 

3. Imperial fighters

The rebels would have to be allowed more points to counter it. The Frigates are 5 points cheaper than Gladiators and every  Rebels starfighter is more resilient. Drop a Nebulon-B with some A-Wings in and if you're activating first, jump the fighters.

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The problem with this argument on both sides, is the same that I saw in the ISD in X-Wing...

It doesn't matter what idea someone comes up with to make it work, it doesn't matter how much or little the scale is broken.

What matters is some people simply do not want to see something like the SSD in Armada for the same reasons they didn't want to see a ISD in X-Wing. But at the same time there are some people who want it to happen for the same reasons they wanted to see a ISD in X-Wing

The arguments pro and con are pretty much identical. The pro side can't even really claim that scale doesn't matter, because they use a sliding scale in X-Wing Epic anyway. So there's really no difference.

So what you have are two groups of people debating opinion and personal preferance.

Edited by VanorDM

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Wjgo, a corelian corvette has 6 guns and throws 3 dice. An ISD has hundreds of guns yet only throws 8 dice. I dont hear people complaining that the ISD is underpowered.

A SSD diesnt need to throw a hundred dice in order to stick to the relative scale. It just needs to throw more dice than any other ship. How much more is debateable, but im the only one giving any reasonable figures...

Thalomen:

Why do the rebels need a counterpart extremely huge ship? They dont need something like it because it doesnt fit the lore.

As for how they fight it. All that takes it good play testing and balance. It would certainly cost a big chunck of points, and would be a "all your eggs in one basket" ship. For its cost the rebels could get X ships and outnumber it. Also, its anti fighter armament should be to good. Maybe just 2 dice. Then any fighter, especially bombers, would be quite effective.

The size of the modelcan still be worked around. Different movement rules could help solve the problem of it ramming to many ships, it would be up to the other player to keep his ships from ramming into it.

As for shelf space...i dont know about your FLGS but the ones around here seem to have space where you could put a 2ft model. It would be big, but it could work and wouldnt have to displace other product. Plus i know in the places nearby there are 10 year old metal GW models on the wall that nobody has bought, or will ever buy. They could go.

For your third point, i think, again, this is where balanced point costs come in to play. If you took the SSD and more fighters, you wouldnt have room for much else, so the rebels would outnumber you

Edit: id like the jury to know that i have always been against the ISD in x wing. This is hardly the same argument

Edited by Eyeless1

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Edit: id like the jury to know that i have always been against the ISD in x wing. This is hardly the same argument

Yes it is. You could change SSD to ISD, 19km to 1600m and post it in the X-Wing forms and no one would notice a difference in the core arguments being made.

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