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Super Star Destroyer discussion thread

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If it was that powerful everyone would play it ... EVERYONE ... making sure they have a Gunnery Crew to fire out one Arc twice they would just sit there at speed one and slowly broadside the entire map (Unless they were blue / black dice) mean that at a distance it could get pummeled but it would destroy anything that got too close it would be stupidly broken ... with tarkin manning it giving it repair tokens every round ;P

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Yea maybe 1red,2blue and 3 black

And maybe drop it down to 6 shields on each array

Maybe a hull value of 12

At this point I think I'm going to home brew one once wave 1 is released so I can Field enough rebels to take it on

Edited by bageldrone

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I don't understand people saying that 3x6 is too small a play area for the ssd

If you put the ssd on a base slightly larger than the size of the xwing Cr90 maybe 30cm/12" with a model of about 40cm/16" long and restricted it to speed 1 I think it would work easily in the game

It would be a slow lumbering ship which in the course of 6 turns wouldn't move much, but you wouldn't want it to

I could see the ssd having 2 or more shield arrays on each side with each array having a high shield value (maybe as high as 8), this would mean that the enemy would have to concentrate firepower on one small section of the SSD to bring it down

I think it would need to also have multiple arcs on each side with 6+ dice on each this would mean you could easily fire a broadside of 12 dice at a single ship which would seriously damage or one shot most ships which I think is thematic

The only real stumbling block is points value in my opinion

I think it needs to be around 300 points to be played in a 500-600 point game which in my opinion is the upper limit for a timely game

 

But what we have been saying in the last few post is that the ships in X wing are far smaller then the ones in Armada.

 

The reason why Epic X wing is playable is because it has, for the most part small models.

 

Armada has relatively large models in comparison and the base size alone for these models are far bigger than most x wing ships.

 

Fact is, having a SSD on a 6x3 mat would make everything too cramped considering there will be ISDs and Mon Cal Cruisers.

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Ok, as the starter of this post I have a confession to make: I did not expect this post to be so popular. I made it so the SSD discussion could come and eventually fizzle out here. That has not been the case.

Up till now I have not believed that FFG would build a Super Star Destroyer, BUT they just released this little teaser advertisement. Please note what most of the dialog relates to...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja2bb9iKFjk

 

There you have it folks.   Confirmation of Wave 3 from FFG!  The Executor will be here!  

 

  But for reals, it very likely could be a little teaser for those of us who are speculating.  I mean, they didn't have to use voice clips at all. 

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Ok, as the starter of this post I have a confession to make: I did not expect this post to be so popular. I made it so the SSD discussion could come and eventually fizzle out here. That has not been the case.

Up till now I have not believed that FFG would build a Super Star Destroyer, BUT they just released this little teaser advertisement. Please note what most of the dialog relates to...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja2bb9iKFjk

 

There you have it folks.   Confirmation of Wave 3 from FFG!  The Executor will be here!  

 

  But for reals, it very likely could be a little teaser for those of us who are speculating.  I mean, they didn't have to use voice clips at all. 

 

 

And yet they also used a voice clip of General Veers for Empire Strikes back when he was in a AT-AT

 

As other people have said already, it was more likely they just didn't have much in the way of voice lines from the film relevant to space combat.

 

ROTJ had the primary space battle for the trilogy so of course it makes sense for FFG to use famous voice clips from it in there trailer.

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So most gaming tables at my local FLGS are 4'x6'. That would add a whole 12 inches onto the board, giving any super ship more room. And its completely playable. I play warhammer on 4x6 all the time, yeah there is walking around the table, but thats not a problem...

 

Just a thought...

Edited by Eyeless1

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Posting this again in the hope that someone can explain how a sliding scale would work in this case.

 

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f252/CanisD/Shipyard/Drawings/SW/EXECUTOR.png~original

Great question, thank you for asking!

The simple explanation is logarithmic scale. Logarithmic scales are used when you have a large disparity (i.e. orders of magnitude) in the values of the data set.

For example, the CR-90 is 150m long, while the ISD is 1600m long. The ISD is an order of magnitude larger than the CR-90. We want to have both of these ships in the game, but if we used the ISD scale, the CR-90 would be tiny - less than an inch. If we used the CR-90 scale, the ISD would be huge - almost two feet. So, obviously we cannot use the same scale for all of the ships in the game.

What can we do? What if we pick an arbitrary "feels good" size for both ships? Let us assume that we have chosen the actual sizes of the Armada models - 58mm for the CR-90 and ~190mm for the ISD (current estimates are betwen 7-8 inches, I split the difference). Now that we have these two points, we can draw a line between them, and use this line to scale all of the other ships. This is called linear interpolation.

On this page you can see how it would work. Put in the end points; 150 for x1, 1600 for x2, 58 for y1, 190 for y2. Now if you put in the length of the ship in meters into x2 and press calculate, y2 will be that ship's model length in mm. This formula gives us a length of 126mm for the VSD and 71mm for the Nebulon-B. These are not the correct values so obviously, this method is not being used in Armada. One of the problems with this method is that it will only produce reasonably scaled models for a fairly narrow range of inputs.

What we want is something that can take a large range of inputs, but give us a "flattened" output, so that all of the models are still of a practical size. Luckily, the logarithmic function is well suited for this, and in fact is the number one go to solution when talking about modelling data that covers several orders of magnitude. Here is a graph with the known ships sizes (and ISD estimate) - it conforms quite well to the logarithmic curve. Notice how the curve is flattening out? That means as you travel along the x-axis (bigger ships) the y-value (scaled model size) increases only gradually - exactly what we want.

There are some things that further complicate the situation - models will need to fit on one of the base sizes and artistic license to make an attractive game piece will both effect the actual scale used and bump individual values off of the curve, but hopefully this illustrates the concept.

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 You're always setting the maneuvers when you activate a ship, so you're not locked into maneuvers that you'll regret later. And since you control activation order on your ships you can simply orchistrate movements to get out of the way of your other ships.

 

There are plenty of times when playing X-Wing that there are simply no possible moves because the entire map turns into a gridlock, and this is exactly what will likely happen trying to bring SSD sized ships into Armada.

Saying that players have to then choose the ships that can move first is just putting a band-aid on the problem. What happens when a player goes "actually no, I dont care that I am blocking half the ships on the board, I want to shoot with this ship first".

 

I think Armada is a great game, but really, why try ruin it by ramrodding something into it which just breaks it? We see it with X-Wing when you try and add too many points, or spread the game out on too large a mat, the game just starts breaking. FFG clearly made it with a particular size and range in mind from the get go and the size that they made the ISD makes me think it is extremely unlikely we will see anything larger.

 

Another argument towards this is the range ruler. When FFG released Epic X-Wing they had to create an even longer range ruler for the capital ships to represent their increased firepower and the larger game size because the standard ruler was insufficient given the ships were so big. Yet they have given us a very similar sized ruler in the core Armada game to the original one in X-Wing. An ISD or SSD wouldnt make sense to shoot rediculously longer than a Victory class destroyer so it wouldnt make sense to issue a longer one again, and using a standard ruler with a model that is almost longer than it is just silly. So I don't think FFG ever intends to go larger, or they would have made a longer ruler like in the Epic ships from day one!

 

 

Re: Activation order and colliding

Frankly that problem is already here, and I think we'll see it when more ships are available and fleets get bigger. Especially with Victories aiming their noses at enemy ships, collisions are going to happen. The way I see it the SSD actually relieves this problem by being only one ship. If it takes up the space of two or three that means only one ship is activating in that cluster-F to try clearing it. And if the SSD works like the CR-90 does, Emperor help whatever it rams.

 

So an SSD driver will have to choose between activating his ships to clear movement space, or getting the shot off with the Executor at the "Right" moment. I honestly don't see why you would want to activate the SSD first before the surrounding escorts unless the escorts were better spaced out.

 

I think one could justify the longer range ruler by saying it allows the SSD to shoot beyond its escorts as a simple gameplay necessity. Or to make it a credible threat at longer ranges. Fluffwise, you can say turbolasers are more powerful on the SSD than on standard ships. That is, if you're using something longer than a standard ruler anyway... it's not like the long ruler is representing more powerful turbolasers that the Raider and CR-90 have.

 

If we do see an Executor I firmly believe it will be the ceiling of Armada scale (No Eclipses, or Death Stars, or Torpedo Spheres). The ship might come out to 200 points and require some more dedicated counters to take it on, but I don't expect Armada to go larger than that. The only exception may be fixed space installations, but they have thier own problems.

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We already have ships activating before squadrons. Maybe Epic format could have a new phase just for Star Dreadnought size ships.

 

What if the Star Dreadnoughts had flat bases, and other ships could move over them? Since the huge ships are so lumbering, other ships can usually fly over/under them, and collisions would only occur with the support stands.

I also agree that the Executor is the limit. We messed with the scaling in the diagrams, and I think it can just barely be squeezed in to something slightly bigger than an XWM CR-90, but the Assertor class at 15000m would be much easier to fit. I also like the Bellator-class, and at "only" 7200m it should be a cinch :) 

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Had some more free time this weekend.. added the Bellator and Assertor in comparison to the other ships on a 6x3 playmat.

Everything is 1:1 scale relative to the ISD except the Victory - which I'm using the real size values for - and the SSDs that are x2 and x3 the size of the ISD. I have the ISD as 8 inches here, but like a few others have said, it's pretty likely it will actually be larger. If that's the case, everything would be scaled up accordingly (or the playmat and VSD scaled down a certain percentage).

All_SSD_v2.png

Edit: Updated image and descriptive text.

Edited by jonnyboy0121

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Thanks again for the diagrams!

The Praetor is too close to an equilateral triangle for me. The Bellator is long and thin and may have similar problems as the Executor. The Secutor looks bland to me from above, but I found an image from the side that looks pretty cool - maybe it could be a "small Epic" ship (like the GR-75)

The Assertor is the most visually appealing to me in that diagram. It looks more "Star Destroyer-y" than the Executor. It isn't as spindly as the Executor so it will fit on a rectangular base better, and it is wider relative to the length, so with the shorter actual length it should fit in as a 16-20" model much better. When I scale the Assertor down to the same size as the 16" Executor it looks better / more proportional. Also, it appears there is a lot less detailed information available on the Assertor, so FFG would have more freedom do what they like with it.

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I'm not sure, but I imagine there being some kind of scenario where FFG is hesitant to use Ansel Hsiao designs. I personally don't think we'll be seeing them. That's completely speculation, but I say that because there were a couple of really cool contenders for a corvette sized Imperial ship for X-Wing on his site but they opted to come up with their own design instead.

 

Even though his models are fanart, he would have to probably give his blessing for them to take his work and make lots of money off of it.  As an artist myself, I can see how that might be a ethical/legal gray area for all sides involved. It's probably just easier for them to pay artists to come up with something new.

 

So after all the mock ups I've made, my favorite plus size star destroyer is the Allegiance. I could see something that size fitting into an "XL" class of ships in the game, rather than trying to cram in a Super Star Destroyer or Dreadnought type. It'd be the biggest ship on the board but not be so large that it would dwarf the other game pieces and cause movement problems. It'd still be a huge target, but not a "I win" ship like I feel a SSD should be thematically. I'm just starting to feel like anything over a foot or so is getting to be too big in the space, and yeah, designing game rules so that they have to be played in areas bigger than 6x3 doesn't seem like particularly good design either. 

 

So I don't think we'll see the Allegiance, per say, but more like something similar to it tied to Episode VII. I think there's a good chance we'll see a new, upgraded ISD mk-II or something like that.  Just like the stormtroopers and x-wings we saw in the trailer are sporting a new, sleeker look I think star destroyers will be updated too. Or we may even see a new class of SSD altogether. I bet they already are working on movie ships for X-Wing and Armada, and we'll see those in a few months. If you think about it, they've already made or are currently developing (and we know about it) the majority of the ships we see in the OT.

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If you are that big, you would know that you cannot use all of it, or you end up having to massage your girl to help ease the pain.

 

For Example, when Something that big crashed into the Death star they both blew up

 

IYKWIM

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So now that we have the stats for the ISD-1 (albeit without point cost), one of you SSD pushers, give me reasonable stats for an SSD. Just so that it would work in the game and not feel like just an upgraded ISD. Which is basically what the ISD is to the VSD.

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What would be funny is if they built a Collectors version to scale! 5 1/2' long, 3' wide and about 95lbs. Price? If you have to ask! Just remember to bring a friend to help you lift it.

But it would be cool if they came up with a SSD like ship similar to how they came up with the Raider for X-Wing for epic games. Same with the Rebels.

To scale would still be the size of a car. The ISD model is going to be a bit bigger than the Rebel transport model from x-wing, so about a foot long. SSD is just under 12 ISDs long, lol.

 

I think they will make it at some point. It's just too good to pass up as their crowning achievement. It could be 3 feet long ha.

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So now that we have the stats for the ISD-1 (albeit without point cost), one of you SSD pushers, give me reasonable stats for an SSD. Just so that it would work in the game and not feel like just an upgraded ISD. Which is basically what the ISD is to the VSD.

 

 

I would to say that I totally called the ISD throwing 8 dice out its front arc, somewhere near the beginning of this thread.

 

Now, the SSD doesnt need to throw 300 dice. that would be absurd, and yeah, its got alot of guns, but the ISD only throws 8 dice but have many more guns than the corvette with throws 3. So all the SSD has to do is throw the most dice. 

Im thinking 10 or so, of various colors like the ISD. There are few ships in this game that could survive 10 dice getting thrown at them, which is how any ship would be if the SSD went up against it. Like I said, it doesnt have to do hundreds of things in order to match the fluff. All it has to do is do more than any other ship.

 

SO off the top of my head, 

 

Attack

Front-10 dice of various colors

Sides-6 or so. Make its broadside as bad as a MC80 broadside. But its still the front that deals the most damage.

Rear-2

 

Shields

Front - 6

Sides - 4

Rear - 2

Bridge deflector shields-1

 

15 Hull, maybe less?

 

2 Redirect tokens

1 Brace token

1 Contain token

 

Command-5 (because its huge and the commander of such a large ship would have alot to do, plus it would react much slower than other ships)

Squadron-5 (to go along with the whole "its a giant carrier" thing)

Engineering-5 (not 6, cuz being able to repair 2 damage a turn would be absurd)

 

Cost it around 200-250 points, depending on how much the ISD costs. This would need balancing of course.

Edited by Eyeless1

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So what you propose is a slightly more powerful ISD. Would it even be fun to play with 5 command? I mean seriously?

 

You'd set 5 command dials at the beginning of the match, then get another one after the first turn, and that's it. You just got to hope you did alright. I honestly thought the ISD would have command 4, but my guess that in play testing 4 command was just too unwieldy.

 

That SSD would be eaten alive by only two MC80s. All the Rebel player would have to do is get on one side of the SSD with both his ships, and pound a broadside. They would be throwing +12 dice at it a turn while it would be only throwing back half that much. It wouldn't last after the 2nd turn.

 

So if you want an SSD that 2 Mon Cal Cruisers can own, there you have it.

Edited by Jo Jo

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What is an ISD but a slightly more powerful Vic?

 

I was just throwing out numbers to have somehting to work with. This is why we need to discuss it.

 

I honestly didnt give much thought to the command value, but yeah, 5 dials over 6 turns would suck. But I hardly ever play turn limited games, so I didnt give that much thought. 4 would be better I guess.

 

As for 2 mon cals taking it out by turn 2. Umm, first they would have get into position to broadside it, which would take more than 2 turns. And if both ships are on the same side, then somebody's attacks would be obstructed, limiting their firepower. But lets not get ahead of ourselves. If this SSD I have in mind can even get one in its front arc. 10 dice, even 5, would start to deal to much damage for a mon cal to handle. By the time they get to broadside position, the SSD could have hypotheically destroyed one, or destroy it with its own broadside. Then its gets down to raw hitpoints and defense tokens. A mon cal only has 8 hitpoints, 6 dice will quickly take care of that, while 6 dice wont destroy 15 hitpoints really quick. Especially when repair actions and defense tokens start happening.

 

But if it should be made bigger, beef the side shields up to 5, and the rear up to 4

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 This is why we need to discuss it.

Yes please!

The anti-SSD people seem so confrontational to me. It also seems like they completely ignore the many reasonable ideas presented for how an SSD could work and just vent their spleen. Is it just me? Am I taking crazy pills?

Back on point:

Thank you, Eyeless, for putting something out there. It seems like you're stat-ing it out as a normal base ship. I think the SSD would have to be on something like an Epic XWM base, with two sections.

 

My current idea is that it will have a special flat base, so that other ships can move over it. The only collision points would be the vertical stands that hold the model up. These would be special hit locations - the forward stand would be the hangar bay and the rear stand the bridge.

 

The front section would have at least four hull zones and firing arcs to split the shields up more, the rear section could maybe get away with just three. I could see going as high as six on the front and five on the back though. More hull zones also means that the armament can be represented better without have a 20 dice arc.

The two sections would have different command values to represent how unwieldy and difficult it is to command such a huge ship (maybe two front and four back). Maybe the front command dial can only be used for tokens.

I have also been thinking about modified movement rules - like you have to feed the rear section at least a nav token just to maintain your speed, otherwise it will drop back to zero and you'll lose your defense tokens.

The front section is where all the firepower will be, but also the high squadron value, so you'll have to choose what to focus on more. The rear section is more vulnerable, but it can't just sit there and spam engineering commands because it takes constant effort just to keep the thing moving.

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Is it just me? Am I taking crazy pills?

Yes you are.

If someone doesn't want something, then why would you expect them to be involved in a discussion on how to make that thing work?

If someone asks me to decide which side of my face they're going to slap me on, that is hardly a discussion I'm going to want to have, because the obvious answer 'neither' isn't an option. Not that I consider a SSD in Armada to be akin to being slapped in the face.

But if you wish to discuss how to make it work, then you have to accept that "I don't want it to work at all" is a completely valid answer, and is not in fact venting spleen as you put it.

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