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Super Star Destroyer discussion thread

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I don't see SSDs going much beyond speed 2, if not restricted to 0-1. With such a huge base we can't expect them to go that fast and still stay on the board.

 

All huge ships have this problem. If you run it enough turns, a CR-90 will fly off an X-wing standard table. In fact I'm pretty sure that's why the turn limits were hard set in the first CR-90 scenario, so it can end before this eventuality.

 

That said if you're crawling at speed 1 for a base that big how likely is it, really, that it'll run off the table before the end of turn 6?

 

As for collisions and the like there is one simple problem to fix this: Blow up whatever you'd be colliding with. Or you could do the interesting tactic of intentionally using your huge ship as a battering ram. I've seen deliberate rams to kill capital ships as a legitimate tactic in Armada in some places, especially with ships shot up so badly they're down to 1-2 health.

 

A huge ship dealing two damage cards on collision wouldn't surprise me, to support this line of thinking. It also encourages opponents to keep their distance and prevent those collisions.

Well my thought is not only do you have to worry about the Epic ship but the larger bases of your other ships will also take up lots of space causing lots of movement issues. The Rebels on the other hand will be able to move around the SSD more easily as of now becuase of their superior movement.

Maybe if the Imperial player uses only the GSD and Raiders they will over come this but VSD on up are going to be blocked in.

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I dunno, I think you'd have to either do some formation flying (setting your escorts parallel to the SSD), or send your Star Destroyers in a different direction. The latter might be the better option after all to cover different flanks with all that firepower. Besides if the SSD obstructs fire you're going to have to do a little planning on how you want your ships to be placed anyway. Probably angle the SSD and deploy ships on the side facing the enemy, then the SSD fires between the gaps.

 

You're going to have mid-game problems with space collisions but that's already the case. If you have a couple of victories in the center of the board and you're getting charged by a pair of assault frigates there will be problems. The SSD is not bringing anything new to that particular issue.

 

As to setup zones we also already have a precedent with CR-90s: the back edge must touch the home edge. There may be a problem with fighter deployments but with practically it might not be that bad.

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Its looking more and more like Epic sized ships simply wouldn't work for this game in its standard form

 

I think the only way it may work is if its a part of a Scenario where it is immobile and must be protected as a objective.

 

It still isn't well balanced either. Especially when the Imperials get a SSD while the Rebels get a Bulwark if anything.

 

My Vote is still for no SSD unless its just a Allegiance Class & the Bulwark Mark III being the maximum sized ship.

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I've also found a ship that may replace the Allegiance as it looks more unique while being the same length.

 

Secutor class battlecruiser 2.2km

 

6xw6yc.png

 

It looks fantastic and has quite a interesting design

 

Here's a link to a top down view of it as well

 

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/05/92/e6/0592e6d60f08477db9115869300d910b.jpg

 

If you have the time Jonnyboy0121 could you see about adding this to the diagram next to the Bulwark Mark III to compare size?

Edited by Yak9UT

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First, thanks to jonnyboy0121 for providing such excellent diagrams and indulging some of our ideas!

Second, I would be totally fine if they ended up going for something in a more intermediate size. (If they go with any larger format at all!) However, obviously I and others are interested in continuing discussion about ideas for the Executor-class. Even if there is not an official FFG addition, I think there will be people trying to make some house-rule stuff. I will most likely start by proxying with an Imperial Raider :)

In regards to maneuvering space, I think if the CR-90 can fit in XWM, then something slightly larger can fit in Armada. One thing we've been basing things off of is an 8" ISD. However, if the ISD has the same proportion to the large base as the VSD to the medium, it will be closer to 7". Then the SSD would need be 17.5" to meet the width requirement. I totally agree that the 16x6 base is way too big, but I think we could get by with a base size of around 4.5"x10". At that point in terms of percentage area, the SSD is now smaller in its nominal play space than the CR-90. So for more model size discussion, I think we need to get some tangible measurements of the ISD since we are basing things on the concept of relative size.

If we continue to go with the XWM Huge ship paradigm, and assume that Huge Armada ships will also have two bases, should each base have one broadside hull zone or two? For the Executor-class I could definitely see four hull zones down each side, and possibly two front and two back as well.
 

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Follow up thought:

We know the small base covers ships from 150m-500m, and the medium base 700m-900m. The ranges could be greater. At 1.6km for an ISD on a large, it doesn't seem totally unreasonable to fit a ~2km ship on the same base.

So what I'm saying is the Secutor, Bulwark, and Allegiance are too small :)

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So - with these proposals - we are going to buy a $100 painted model (based on a resin models of the SSD), so the first move will be to ram the other Super Ship with our own Super Ship, and just let them sit there and roll die attacks against each other?  No maneuvering of the ships, not real way for other ships to maneuver among them, every ship - including the other Super Ship (my name for whatever these ships will be) will b in range, firing arcs that include every ship on round one, at medium range at most.  They will just cancel each other out.  Why do this?

 

If one really, really has to play with a SSD, buy the resin models of 2 inch SSD's and ISD's, create a map, and play 20 vs 20 on them.

Edited by wjgo

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Well, the MSRP of the CR-90 is $90. We are basing a lot of our assumptions off the precedents set by Epic XWM. A lot of people have been clamoring for an Imperial Huge ship for XWM, specifically so that they could have two "super ships" duke it out with each other - and they are now close to getting one.

So it seems to me pretty reasonable to imagine that people will want something similar, in a game that is roughly similar.

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H'okay.. last of the fun for me tonight :)

 

EU_ships_on_mat_2.png

 

So mostly everything is 1:1 scale to the ISD aside from the Executor, of course. I added in the Victory and scaled it according to the size of the model found in this thread: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/139165-ship-dimensions/. Compared to the ISD it looks big. So I'm not sure, the ISD may be even larger than what I have in my diagrams. So keep that in mind - if the ISD is an inch or two bigger all the other ships would scale up accordingly too.

 

I also added in a 17.5 inch SSD and put it on top of a 4.5 x 10 inch base. It looks good. As far as a base, I think it makes sense if they split into sections like the X Wing epics do. Not only does it save a lot of plastic but that may be a good way to balance it. Rather than one super powerful ship you have essentially two (or maybe 3?) ships combined with cripple-able sections.

 

After finding the sizes for the current Wave I ships I decided to add in them in to a little battle mock up with all the other ships. This is still with a 20 inch Executor.

 

ships_on_mat_rebel_fleet.png

 

Pretty neat! Doesn't look as bad with the ships a lot more spread out. Who knows how that would play though!

Edited by jonnyboy0121

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I'm still not convinced that the SSD fits in the game.

 

Playability it is simply is too long for the game. And scale wise its doesn't give the SSD justice.

 

People who are comparing the SSD with the X wing Tantive IV need to realise that in X wing, majority of the ships are small.

 

Compared that with Armada and you find the size of the ships and bases are far greater then x wing.

 

I don't think it will work properly in this game.

 

Also I still don't think it would ever look that good on the mat

 

Going from this

 

gathering19.jpg

 

To this

 

imp-fleet.jpg

 

Is just not acceptable in my eyes.

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Give FFG  a chance, they love money and will love to sell these. It is coming down the pipe, just a ways away. I can already see a few changes needed to be made based on rules, and when my sets get here this week and I play a few games I can confirm my thoughts. Basically we need to expand the board size (already done in x-wing epic), accept epic ships will be too large to deploy legally (already done in x-wing epic), triple standard points to ensure epic ships can be accurately cost-ed and give both sides a fair chance (one side is in swarm mode to have a chance, already done in x-wing epic). Basically it should run like x-wing epic mixed with apocalypse rules for 40k.

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Edit: If you saw crazy stuff here, I tried to paste a table from Word. It did not work. 

XWM

                            Dimensions     Area         % of 836127.36

Small base             41 x 41         1681          0.201045926

Large base             82 x 82         6724          0.804183707

Huge                     82 x 227        18614         2.226215872

 

Armada
                              Dimensions             Area         % of 1672254.72

Small                        41 x 71                 2911            0.1740763512

Medium                    61 x 102               6222            0.3720725034

Large                        76 x 129               9804            0.5862743206

Epic                         114 x 254              28956          1.7315543890

 

Description: The size of each of the bases in XWM and SW:A converted to millimeters, the area of each base (square millimeters), and the percentage that base takes up of the standard play size for that game (listed in square millimeters at the top).

Method: The XWM numbers are taken from some bases I had that I measured, and may not be the official numbers due to manufacturing tolerances, or bad measurements by me.
The Armada pieces were taken from the official list.
The Epic entry is the most recent size proposed, about 4.5"x10".

Conclusion:
Armada ships are smaller on the Armada board than XWM ships are on the XWM board.

Edited by NewTroski

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One just does not easily expand the Armada play area.  36 inches deep is already bigger than standard card table sizes.  Armada starts at the size of XWing's epic rules.  Any more than 2 extra feet - and 2 tables will be needed - it already takes up more than a 30"x6' table!  Just 2 extra feet and a 30"x8' table is consumed just by the play area.  I think a  30"x8' table is needed just for the standard game to hold all the support pieces and cards.  In fact, Armada really wants you to have a 2 table deep total player area to display cards and what not.  Xwing Epic rules sets a play area of 1:2 ratio.  Armada starts at 1:2.  Putting Armada on an 8 foot tables makes it 1:2.6, and then it just gets oblong.  Deploying ships much larger than the ISD will require more depth.  So, it would probably have to take up two 30"x8' tables for a 1:1.6 ratio.  That is some serious real estate, no matter what the venue is, and - a lot of walking around that table to maneuver your ships.

Edited by wjgo

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There's a ton of room to move out after setup, and how often are you really taking up all that space on the board after you move?

 

Now that the game is out, someone should do a mockup and push it around. We've got the maneuver tool, and we can fudge the ship using the CR-90 and some guesstimate stats with super ships. Restrict it to speed 1-2 and give it a try!

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Edit: If you saw crazy stuff here, I tried to paste a table from Word. It did not work. 

XWM

                            Dimensions     Area         % of 836127.36

Small base             41 x 41         1681          0.201045926

Large base             82 x 82         6724          0.804183707

Huge                     82 x 227        18614         2.226215872

 

Armada

                              Dimensions             Area         % of 1672254.72

Small                        41 x 71                 2911            0.1740763512

Medium                    61 x 102               6222            0.3720725034

Large                        76 x 129               9804            0.5862743206

Epic                         114 x 254              28956          1.7315543890

 

Description: The size of each of the bases in XWM and SW:A converted to millimeters, the area of each base (square millimeters), and the percentage that base takes up of the standard play size for that game (listed in square millimeters at the top).

Method: The XWM numbers are taken from some bases I had that I measured, and may not be the official numbers due to manufacturing tolerances, or bad measurements by me.

The Armada pieces were taken from the official list.

The Epic entry is the most recent size proposed, about 4.5"x10".

Conclusion:

Armada ships are smaller on the Armada board than XWM ships are on the XWM board.

 

But that's going to be the case when X wing is on a 3x3 sized mat while armada is on a 6x3 sized mat.

 

If the comparison was with both on a 6x3 then X wing would be smaller on the board.

 

X wing epic is played on a 6x3, so we have to take that into account when debating if we could have a epic sized ship in Armada.

 

The whole reason X wing epic works is that the ships are considerable smaller compared to the Tantive IV, and that its done on a larger mat compared to standard.

 

In order for Armada to do the same, it would need to Increase mat size by double for it to be at the same level of playability as X wing epic.

 

So that leaves us with some questions.

 

Would making the Mat for Armada twice as big work for Epic Armada? or would it simply to big to be really playable?

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From the diagrams basing the ISD as 8 inches, we can tell from the pictures that it is probably going to be more 8 1/2 - 9 inches, which for every 1/2 an inch, would make the SSD have to be an inch longer to keep looking bigger.

 

Still noone has addressed the fact that at double the length of the ISD, the SSD model would at its widest, only be about as wide as the ISD model, due to its design being so long and skinny - or does that not bother anyone? (or do you want it fattened out so it is more wedge shaped?

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From the diagrams basing the ISD as 8 inches, we can tell from the pictures that it is probably going to be more 8 1/2 - 9 inches, which for every 1/2 an inch, would make the SSD have to be an inch longer to keep looking bigger.

 

Still noone has addressed the fact that at double the length of the ISD, the SSD model would at its widest, only be about as wide as the ISD model, due to its design being so long and skinny - or does that not bother anyone? (or do you want it fattened out so it is more wedge shaped?

Some people mentioned it briefly but yeah thats one of my biggest complaints on a SSD.

 

It just looks to silly in the scale it would need to be.

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Conclusion:

Armada ships are smaller on the Armada board than XWM ships are on the XWM board.

 

XWing Epic Games that use the Huge bases are played on 3'x6' play areas.  All of your XWing results should be halved.

Edited by wjgo

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The other thing that people who are talking about compairing to X-Wing are missing, is that in Epic X-Wing, you have usually a single Epic ship, or two maximum, and mostly tiny fighters - only a bit larger the same as the fighters in Armada, to negotiate around the board.

 

In Armada, the ships for the most part are significantly larger and more cumbersom than X-Wing, trying to negotiate the same size that we allow for Epic X-Wing in just a regular sized game. If you chuck the equivilent of an "epic" ship into Armada then it would be like trying to play Epic X-Wing on a 3x3 with CR-90's and falcons, firesprays, decimators and YT-2400's trying to get around them.

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Well, you also need to add that the large ships would be doing speed 1 moves, or speed 2 if they get really excited. You're always setting the maneuvers when you activate a ship, so you're not locked into maneuvers that you'll regret later. And since you control activation order on your ships you can simply orchistrate movements to get out of the way of your other ships.

 

I can picture an SSD and Star Destroyer escort getting into a ramming match with Rebel MC80s and Assault Frigates but I don't think the stalemate will last for long. If you're that close to a super star destroyer that you're constantly colliding with it every turn, you're not going to last long under the (presumably) torrential turbolaser fire it will be spewing, to say nothing about that star destroyer escort.

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 You're always setting the maneuvers when you activate a ship, so you're not locked into maneuvers that you'll regret later. And since you control activation order on your ships you can simply orchistrate movements to get out of the way of your other ships.

 

There are plenty of times when playing X-Wing that there are simply no possible moves because the entire map turns into a gridlock, and this is exactly what will likely happen trying to bring SSD sized ships into Armada.

Saying that players have to then choose the ships that can move first is just putting a band-aid on the problem. What happens when a player goes "actually no, I dont care that I am blocking half the ships on the board, I want to shoot with this ship first".

 

I think Armada is a great game, but really, why try ruin it by ramrodding something into it which just breaks it? We see it with X-Wing when you try and add too many points, or spread the game out on too large a mat, the game just starts breaking. FFG clearly made it with a particular size and range in mind from the get go and the size that they made the ISD makes me think it is extremely unlikely we will see anything larger.

 

Another argument towards this is the range ruler. When FFG released Epic X-Wing they had to create an even longer range ruler for the capital ships to represent their increased firepower and the larger game size because the standard ruler was insufficient given the ships were so big. Yet they have given us a very similar sized ruler in the core Armada game to the original one in X-Wing. An ISD or SSD wouldnt make sense to shoot rediculously longer than a Victory class destroyer so it wouldnt make sense to issue a longer one again, and using a standard ruler with a model that is almost longer than it is just silly. So I don't think FFG ever intends to go larger, or they would have made a longer ruler like in the Epic ships from day one!

Edited by MaverickNZ

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I don't understand people saying that 3x6 is too small a play area for the ssd

If you put the ssd on a base slightly larger than the size of the xwing Cr90 maybe 30cm/12" with a model of about 40cm/16" long and restricted it to speed 1 I think it would work easily in the game

It would be a slow lumbering ship which in the course of 6 turns wouldn't move much, but you wouldn't want it to

I could see the ssd having 2 or more shield arrays on each side with each array having a high shield value (maybe as high as 8), this would mean that the enemy would have to concentrate firepower on one small section of the SSD to bring it down

I think it would need to also have multiple arcs on each side with 6+ dice on each this would mean you could easily fire a broadside of 12 dice at a single ship which would seriously damage or one shot most ships which I think is thematic

The only real stumbling block is points value in my opinion

I think it needs to be around 300 points to be played in a 500-600 point game which in my opinion is the upper limit for a timely game

Edited by bageldrone

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