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Luthor Harkon

Accurate rule broken?

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Two nitpicks (Honest i'm not trolling)

1, I said single hit

2, The Multi-laser being without the Accurate quaility and requiring a full action to use (Thus no aiming, in the same time frame as the Snipers Shot) will achieve the same number of degrees of success as the sniper. thus will get 3 hits with the Mutli-laser on the same roll, (which granted is still more damage just not the 5 times damage your saying.)

 

In regards to the Dodging of the attack, you have to be aware of the attack, you will not be aware of any Sniper worthy of the name.

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No, it's one extra hit per one DoS for full auto attacks and one extra d10 per two DoS for an accurate weapon, it's all in the errata.

There wont be a single hit unless you calculate that he achieves just a standard success, in which case the accurate weapon does nothing extra.

 

In regards to dodge, if the sniper's allowed to be unseen so is the heavy weapons guy, a multi las has a longer range so he can be longer away. Ceteris paribus, multi laser always beats a sniper rifle by miles

 

The calculations are trivial to do:

Standard success Long las 1d10+3 pen 1 Multi las 3d10+3 pen 4

1 DoS Long las 1d10+3 pen 1 Multi las 2*3d10+3 pen 4

2 Dos Long las 2d10+3 pen 1 Multi las 3*3d10+3 pen 4

3 DoS Long las 2d10+3 pen 1 Multi las 4*3d10+3 pen 4

4 DoS Long las 3d10+3 pen 1 Multi las 5*3d10+3 pen 4 This is where long las stops doing anything more.

5 DoS Multi las 6*3d10+3 pen 4

6 DoS Multi las 7*3d10+3 pen 4

And so on, all the way up to nine DoS where the multi laser stops adding extra hits. Add to that the longer range of Multi laser and the more difficult to dodge full auto fire (plus the fact that you can hit more than one target).

 

Now, the multi laser is a death machine built for killing by hitting many times, a full auto weapon that will do the same damage as an extremly well placed sniper shot with a single hit. If you want to compare to heavy weapons, do it with one that shoots single shots. Like the MP las cannon (5d10+10 pen 10) or the assault cannon (4d10+5 pen 4 and it's still full auto capable).

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Graspar said:

No, it's one extra hit per one DoS for full auto attacks and one extra d10 per two DoS for an accurate weapon, it's all in the errata.

There wont be a single hit unless you calculate that he achieves just a standard success, in which case the accurate weapon does nothing extra.

My bad on the errata, i actually checked it thinking it would be in page order.

I wasn't comparing it to the Multi-laser as a whole, i was comparing power of a single Multi-laser bolt. I know it is not as powerful as a Multi-laser. I dislike the fact that due to a well placed shot, the damage gets catapulted up in to the realms of Light anti-tank gun, and well beyond what the weapon should be able to do.

 

I wasn't bring dodge up for the purpose of this scenario, it was a general comment.

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To check if a rule is balanced, you have to apply it to all appropriate accounts, not just best case scenario with worst case scenario. The balancing factor of a sniper weapon is if you miss, you miss big and it does not do as much damage as a fully automatic weapon hitting with the same ballistic skill test on most targets.  Accurate makes the sniper weapon good, even worth taking, but not broken.

And as for needing to be aware to dodge, you're right, except the example given, the guy with the hunting rifle was at short range, unless Theo was blinded, it's pretty obvious the guy is going to be shooting at him with it so he would have a chance to dodge. 

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Yeah, I don't think you need to see the shooter, I think you just need to know you are being shot at to be able to dive for cover (i.e. to dodge).  Not 100% on that, and as GM I'd make it a case-by-case thing (though in a close range fight, I'd not make blindness an issue for dodging).

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My bad on the errata, i actually checked it thinking it would be in page order.

I wasn't comparing it to the Multi-laser as a whole, i was comparing power of a single Multi-laser bolt. I know it is not as powerful as a Multi-laser. I dislike the fact that due to a well placed shot, the damage gets catapulted up in to the realms of Light anti-tank gun, and well beyond what the weapon should be able to do.

 

I wasn't bring dodge up for the purpose of this scenario, it was a general comment.

 

 The multi laser is not an anti tank weapon, and it's only ever for full auto. Anything can be compared in the same way. Did you for example know that a ratling can lift a heavier weapon than an ogryn? All you need to do is cut arms and legs off the ogryn. Clearly overpowered.

Compare against other heavy weapons if you want to compare power levels of single shots.

 

Do you dislike the fact that a well placed shot can kill in one hit? With the wounds system you need something with the power of accurate to pull that off with any acceptable frequency.

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Graspar said:

Do you dislike the fact that a well placed shot can kill in one hit? With the wounds system you need something with the power of accurate to pull that off with any acceptable frequency.

Nope, its not that. It's that it doubles to triples the damage output.

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Shockwave said:

Two nitpicks (Honest i'm not trolling)

1, I said single hit

2, The Multi-laser being without the Accurate quaility and requiring a full action to use (Thus no aiming, in the same time frame as the Snipers Shot) will achieve the same number of degrees of success as the sniper. thus will get 3 hits with the Mutli-laser on the same roll, (which granted is still more damage just not the 5 times damage your saying.)

 

In regards to the Dodging of the attack, you have to be aware of the attack, you will not be aware of any Sniper worthy of the name.

 

If the sniper has spent time and effort sneaking into a position, I see no problem with him getting a decently high damage to one-shot most characters. The problem for most of is being able to one shot in regular combat (often at short or point blank range) while non-accurate weapons hardly damage at all. Automatic weapons can do alot of damage as well but each bullet is resisted by armor+toughness, while a sniper shot is resisted once.

Dodge is the only thing that balances this out somewhat. I still prefer the full action aim to get full benefit, as sniping should not be done in regular stand-up combat.

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Nope, its not that. It's that it doubles to triples the damage output. 

 

Yes, that is what one shotting someone usually takes in this game. Say a character has 4 points of armour, three in tougheness bonus and fifteen wounds. Quite ordinary. He's going to soak 22 damage before you even start counting criticals and then you need about seven or eight more to kill. 

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Graspar said:

Nope, its not that. It's that it doubles to triples the damage output. 

 

Yes, that is what one shotting someone usually takes in this game. Say a character has 4 points of armour, three in tougheness bonus and fifteen wounds. Quite ordinary. He's going to soak 22 damage before you even start counting criticals and then you need about seven or eight more to kill. 

Then you missed the point of the statement. My argument has nothing to do with "one-shot" ing a character. It is the fact that it changes a 1d10 damage weapon in to a 2 or 3d10 damage weapon. I would still have issues if the best damage was 1 point or 2d10.

 

So i would appreciate it if you stopped presuming to know my meaning.

 

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My point was not to presume to know what you meant (or rather, it was not to lecture you on what you meant), merely to point out that one shotting someone reliably (like a sniper should be able to) takes damage in the range of 3d10. No offence meant.

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Shockwave said:

Graspar said:

 

It is the fact that it changes a 1d10 damage weapon in to a 2 or 3d10 damage weapon. I would still have issues if the best damage was 1 point or 2d10.

 

 

Try not to look at it as the weapons damage output is being increased. Instead the shot is placed into a less protected much more vulnerable area. The damage increase is just a way to mechanically represent putting the round fired into an unprotected area of the target. If they are wearing a helmet the target is shot in the face or neck, maybe the round is placed at just the right angle as the target is turning to go between the chest and shoulder protection of the target. The damage increase from Accurate is ultimately just a game mechanics work around. The game designers just as easily could have given a PEN bonus for accurate instead of the damage, the way the Eldar Long Rifle works, instead they did damage.

If you don't like the Damage work around try giving a +2 PEN for every 2 DoS or to make accurate really nasty, +2 PEN per DoS.

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It's not just a matter of Pen, though, it also reflects the fact that a sniper shot is less likely to be a glancing hit or a flesh wound. I suppose another mechanic might have been to give them the Tearing Quality, or something similar. Less damage than actual additional dice, but more than usual.

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I agree with ItsUncertainWho, but ,in my opinion, a higher PEN would not represent a 'weaker' spot. (Modern) Snipers aim for the 'life triangle', in order to place a bullet in the targets heart/lungs to instantly kill. Snipers in 40k should do the same. Headshots work good in movies and games, but not in warfare.

Oh, a little bit of story about headshots: Several soldier in WW1 and 2 died because a sniper hit his helmet with such force, that the punch threw his head back/sideways and broke the soldiers neck.

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segara82 said:

I agree with ItsUncertainWho, but ,in my opinion, a higher PEN would not represent a 'weaker' spot. (Modern) Snipers aim for the 'life triangle', in order to place a bullet in the targets heart/lungs to instantly kill. Snipers in 40k should do the same. Headshots work good in movies and games, but not in warfare.

This is mostly, but not entirely, true.  Battlefield snipers are trained to aim for the "life triangle" as you describe.  SWAT snipers are trained for more specific shots (head being quite standard) because 1) they have more control over their environment, and thus the shot they will take, and 2) because the situations they do their work in sometime require that the target not be able to react properly, not for even a few milliseconds, after being shot.  A head-shot will do that to you, a lung-shot will allow a focused individual time to oh... say, kill the hostage.

Additionally, some combat snipers don't behave... I know because a friend of mine was bad about this while serving in Vietnam.  Of his 49 confirmed wartime kills as a sniper, I know at least 4 of them (and certainly more, I would guess) were targetted head-shots, made against his training, taken simply because he thought it would "be more interesting".  Snipers are crazy... my friend is probably extra crazy... but they have a weird (read: scary to most of us civvies) relationship with death.  None of these were during combat, however, as even he wasn't so crazy as to try for a headshot when everything was moving around and/or trying to find/kill him.  I suppose this goes back to point #1 above.

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Oh my, i'm starting to sound like my old biology professor, starting with one sentence and ending my monolog with the third ^^

What i ment to write was: The Accurate rule represents them trying to hit more important body parts (not necessarily the head). And such a thing can, in game terms, only be represented by a higher damage. The PEN-bonus from the Eldar Rifle is to represent the better laser-focussing technology they have.

Aureus: I do not have any real combat experience, and can only read about it. Since my father is a police officer with nearly 40 years of service who collects books about military tactics (and since they come recommended by other veterans of police/military service) i got to read a few rather interesting books. Still, i hope i never have to do something that they wrote so freely about. there's a big difference between reading and doing something.

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segara82 said:

Aureus: I do not have any real combat experience, and can only read about it. Since my father is a police officer with nearly 40 years of service who collects books about military tactics (and since they come recommended by other veterans of police/military service) i got to read a few rather interesting books. Still, i hope i never have to do something that they wrote so freely about. there's a big difference between reading and doing something.

I agree completely, I'm a civvy myself, and have never had real combat experience outside of unarmed confrontations when I was much younger (though I can say from personal experience that it really IS as hard as the rules imply to deal with three attackers at once in melee).  I just have some good first hand accounts of how these subjects get handled in the field, which has taught me that there is a world of difference between taking a placed shot in combat and doing so when your target is unaware.

Personally, as interesting as it is to talk to my ex-military friends (or not ex, in some cases), I would never want to have done the things they have done in the line of duty.

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