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EvilEd209

NOVA Squadron Radio – Episode 20 “Wave 4 Rebels!”

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I think with all the IG-88 out there at PS6, it is still extremely daring to not put VI on Echo!

 

 

Hmm.  I would think Aggressors would be the least of my worries.  If I'm at 87 points, initiative's guaranteed and I'm cloaking before they fire back.  Assuming they don't dodge the my arc and leave me with no shot to trigger ACD off of, heh.

 

It's tempting... I'll have to think about it.   :)

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Sean has told us tales of this 87 point two Phantom build that is Basically Echo and Whisper and that it has been quite impressive in his local meta.  I for one would like to see this list fly, because in my mind a Fat Large Based ship with EU would murder it.  But I guess the trick is using Echo to block and Whisper to kill.  If anyone has a YouTube video on this list, I'd love to see it.

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Sean has told us tales of this 87 point two Phantom build that is Basically Echo and Whisper and that it has been quite impressive in his local meta.  I for one would like to see this list fly, because in my mind a Fat Large Based ship with EU would murder it.  But I guess the trick is using Echo to block and Whisper to kill.  If anyone has a YouTube video on this list, I'd love to see it.

I don't think there's any video of this.  I've seen KineticOperator fly that echo load out on Vassal, and its powerful.  Right now PS 8 echo still gets beat by too many counters, so there's less reason to bid for the PS and more reason to try and make him more durable.  Being able to turtle up and shed your stress is a good play.

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One vote for stopping with the partial points talk.  It's not going to happen, and there are other solutions.  I get the math argument, but there is more to this game than the jousting math.  Yes you must consider time limits when creating your list when going to a competition.  A large ship or two is easy to fly and requires less practice to become proficient with.  Because of their high hit points, they also recover from mistakes and rely less on green dice.  I think these elements factor more into why they are popular.

 

I respect the idea, but feel it is a waste of time to continue to talk about partial points.  Why not spend the time talking about new ways to handle high hit point lists in a timed game?  There is a ton of new upgrade cards and pilots out there thanks to S&V.  

 

As a clarification, the "jousting math" is completely independent of the "leaving points on the table math" with Fat Ships due to a lack of partial points. Jousting math isn't going anywhere, as it is fundamental to the game and evaluating ships.  :)

 

I don't know that there are any "solutions" to the "Fat Ship" trend that is being forced by the MoV system though. Even if zero games go to time, you still gain a strong statistical MoV advantage by bringing a Fat ship, and that was the point I was trying to make. The issue is much worse if games go to time, but even without going to time you still gain a 10-20 point MoV advantage per game. So non-defensive Fat Lists still get this bonus too.

 

It is what it is. The only way we would see significantly less Fat Ships is if some new cheap ship came along that was extremely overpowered, and could just wipe out everything. That would be far worse of a problem, but thankfully is also very unlikely.

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Finally getting a chance to listen. Wouldn't partial points ruin high priced arc Dodgers? A 35 point soontir only gets 3 damage cards before its done- lots of points lost per hit allowed. It makes sense for fat ships but the trickle effect would still only allow fat ships.

Or am I completely missing the partial points idea?

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Finally getting a chance to listen. Wouldn't partial points ruin high priced arc Dodgers? A 35 point soontir only gets 3 damage cards before its done- lots of points lost per hit allowed. It makes sense for fat ships but the trickle effect would still only allow fat ships.

Or am I completely missing the partial points idea?

 

Partial points would be a direct MoV buff to ships that don't cost much. Ships that do cost a lot, but aren't totally killed, give zero points to your opponent. Partial points would "fix" that and allow you to bring 5+ ship lists and give you more viable options for how to actually win that game if it is going to time. Right now the only option for the 5+ ship list vs a Fat List is to kill the "big ship" before time is called.

 

 

Edit: to answer your question, yes, it would hurt MoV for high priced arc dodgers, assuming they take damage.

Edited by MajorJuggler

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Hmm quote button doesn't work on my phone but hey @Welfstar, consider trying Lone Wolf on Echo instead of PTL if you want to keep the dial open and not be forced to use greens. Works well and Echo is pretty easy to keep at Range 2 from the rest of your list (though it might make your moves slightly easier to guess if you try and force the Lone Wolf to always be active.)

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Great Episode as usual.

 

MJ:  I don't think you should ever stop talking about points and MOV.       Everyone complains it's too hard to figure out or implement and I don't understand that.     FFG created this problem by putting out more big ships and not understanding what would happen to the meta game.

 

It's simple.  

 

Take the cost of the ship  / (hull+shields+ upgrades which increase them) and Round down.   We'll call this Damage Value     These are points you earn for each point of damage enemy ships have on them at the end of the game.   This means if he heals a shield with R2 or some other method you won't get the points.      Warhammer Fantasy, 40k and many other games have been doing this for years now.     This is one the main ways to stop 2 ship meta and bring balance back to the game.

 

Examples:

Academy Tie Fighter 12 points, 3 hull, 0 shields.      This means at the end of the game    12/(3+0) = 4 Damage Value

Obsidian Tie Fighter 17 points ,  3 hull, 0 shields, +1 Shield Upgrade.      This means you earn 4 mov points for each damage caused     17/(3+1)=4.25    Rounded down to 4 Damage Value

Soontir Fel  33 points,  3 Hull, +1 Hull Upgrade, Push the Limit.       This means you earn 8 mov points for each damage caused.             33/(3+1)=8.25    Round down to 8 Damage Value

 

If people cannot do this type of simple math, I'm not sure they should be playing this game.     I don't understand why some of your co hosts think this is so difficult to implement or use.

 

Ton's of games use this for their tournaments and it makes sense.

 

Sure you will have cases where people run away so you don't get full points, but that happens now.    At least you get some type of rewards for 60 minutes of gaming, but you lost because his big ship had one hull left on it.   In some cases we have to drive 4 hours to play, and it's so frustrating when people run away, so you cannot have a chance to win.    I feel your pain.

 

Eagletsi111

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Great Episode as usual.

 

MJ:  I don't think you should ever stop talking about points and MOV.       Everyone complains it's too hard to figure out or implement and I don't understand that.     FFG created this problem by putting out more big ships and not understanding what would happen to the meta game.

 

It's simple.  

 

Take the cost of the ship  / (hull+shields+ upgrades which increase them) and Round down.   We'll call this Damage Value     These are points you earn for each point of damage enemy ships have on them at the end of the game.   This means if he heals a shield with R2 or some other method you won't get the points.      Warhammer Fantasy, 40k and many other games have been doing this for years now.     This is one the main ways to stop 2 ship meta and bring balance back to the game.

 

Examples:

Academy Tie Fighter 12 points, 3 hull, 0 shields.      This means at the end of the game    12/(3+0) = 4 Damage Value

Obsidian Tie Fighter 17 points ,  3 hull, 0 shields, +1 Shield Upgrade.      This means you earn 4 mov points for each damage caused     17/(3+1)=4.25    Rounded down to 4 Damage Value

Soontir Fel  33 points,  3 Hull, +1 Hull Upgrade, Push the Limit.       This means you earn 8 mov points for each damage caused.             33/(3+1)=8.25    Round down to 8 Damage Value

 

That is an elegant solution that is simpler than the full method that I had suggested, but with almost the same results. In my suggested method you have to first divide, then multiply, then remove the fractions.

 

In your example you first divide, then remove the fractions (which you can do once at the start of the tourney), and then multiply. that is a far easier approach.

 

The only downside is that you get some point values which can try and slightly game the system. For example, 13*5 = 65 points. So a 64 point Fat Han will only give the opponent 64/13 = 4.9 --> rounded down to 4 points per damage inflicted. However this is still far better than 0.

 

The extreme net difference would be a 64 point Falcon @ 1 hull:

No partial points: 0 points scored

full partial points: 59 points scored

Rounded partial points: 48 points scored.

 

So your method is much easier, but could still be off by up to 11 points, in the worst case scenario. That's still much easier to swallow than 59 points though, or in my case 57 points vs a 1HP 62 point Fat Han that was sure to die next round.

 

 

Good thoughts though.

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Thanks,

 

I have to say I developed this as for our gaming group for Heroclix (Using the number of clicks divided by 10 and rounding down as points for each click of damage done).   This helped in our massive games of multiple player, which we never finish, but count up points as we go to see who is winning at the time, so we know who public enemy number 1 during each round.      

 

I agree that yes you could be off by points, but I'm willing to accept that to earn some points instead of 0.   This method would have to be vetted and reviewed by FFG, but I definitely think it's easy and most fair with the current meta of ships.     Like you said, calculate the damage point value for each ship beforehand, and then at the end add it up.

 

Looking forward to more discussions on future pod casts.

 

Eagletsi111 

Edited by eagletsi111

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In your example system, taking my game for the previous podcast as an example:

 

Player #1:

60 point Han: 8/13 

40 point Corran: 0/5

 

Player #2:

62 point Han: 1/13

19 point Tala: 0/19

19 point Tala: 0/19

 

 

No partial points: Player #2 wins a modified victory, 40 - 38

 

Full partial points: Player #1 wins a full victory, 95 - 63

 

Rounded partial points: Player #1 wins a full victory, 86 - 60

 

 

Either of the last two methods would have been highly preferred to the first.  :D

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Thanks,

 

I have to say I developed this as for our gaming group for Heroclix (Using the number of clicks divided by 10 and rounding down as points for each click of damage done).   This helped in our massive games of multiple player, which we never finish, but count up points as we go to see who is winning at the time, so we know who public enemy number 1 during each round.      

 

I agree that yes you could be off by points, but I'm willing to accept that to earn some points instead of 0.   This method would have to be vetted and reviewed by FFG, but I definitely think it's easy and most fair with the current meta of ships.     Like you said, calculate the damage point value for each ship beforehand, and then at the end add it up.

 

Looking forward to more discussions on future pod casts.

 

Eagletsi111 

 

I really like this idea.  It's very simple and easy to implement.  Now how to persuade FFG to try this?

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Okay, so now that I have actually listened to the episode, I'd like to present my case for Etahn.

We'll start with the data MJ presented at the beginning of the episode that the majority of lists are two ship lists.

I don't have the data to back up this next assertion (let me know), but my experience and instinct tell me that the points distribution is usually a 60/40(ish) split between the two ships. Fat turret+high PS/high damage dealer generally. There are exceptions--notably dual IG or Chewbo which are usually 50/50.

The squad I took to the top table of my first SC was:

42: Etahn w/ PtL, Adv Sensors, R2-D2

22: Blue B

36: 3x Bandit

I'll say that I agree that Etahn is overcosted from a pure efficiency point of view, but there is a value to him that isn't accounted for in that. His value increases, and therefore his overcoat decreases the more attacks you have in a squad. With my above squad, I can cheat 5 crits a turn. If I took him with, say, 58 point Dash, his ability would have significantly less value.

On the flip side, his relative overcost, if preserved, can be used to protect MOV. If I kill 60 points of ships, my opponent CANNOT win the game unless he kills Etahn. Going back to the 60/40 split, this means if I can kill a fat decimator or fat han, then whatever is left (usually Whisper, Echo, Coran, or 3 Zs) MUST kill Etahn to have a chance at winning. In a 60 minute round, that is a difficult task.

3 agility dice, backed up by focus, evade, and R2-D2 means I'm negating at least 2 hits per turn, but statistically just under 4 per turn. This means for a phantom (best case scenario to reliably wear him down), it must be in range 1 and hit with 5 out of 5 shots to kill him. It'll take 4-5 turns of this.

But that's not taking into account the other ships that they have to ignore just to be able to have a chance to crawl back into the game. Ships that are blocking, fearlessly focus/TLing, etc.

I can tell you that that list can very reliably and very consistently kill a fat, 60-point whatever, in under 60 minutes. Then my opponent's MOV gambit is working against him and racing against the clock.

"But, Kevin, for 42 points, you could get Coran pilotVI, FCS, and R2-D2, why would I not do that instead?!"

You could certainly, and he's great, I admit. But he can't protect those 42 points anywhere close to as well as Etahn. He's efficient, but mostly as an offensive ship. Etahn can actually out fly him on the basis that a barrel roll before moving provides significantly better positioning than one after.

On top of that, Etahn's ability is a passive and constant ability, he simply has to be on the table and looking the right way, and Coran's is an active and not constant ability. He has to be on the table, looking the right way, and he can do it 50% of the time the first two conditions are met.

One of my favorite moves with Etahn is to use him as a blocker and have the rest of the swarm turning up crits against the ship he just blocked. Coran, if blocked, is...well, he's blocked. He's hoping green dice are kind enough to live for a turn so R2-D2 can heal him again. And that's not a position I want a 42 point ship to be in.

In conclusion, Etahn is a vastly underrated pilot, who can't simply be math quantified the same way most ships can.

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His ability is actually very conducive to modeling mathematically, in the same way that Howlrunner's ability is. Unfortunately I have not gotten around to it, nor will I for some time.

 

The point bracket discussion is interesting - I think this is where the meta is headed. Point brackets and counter point brackets. Of course, if you face off against a dual IG88 list at 50 points each, then it all goes out the window. He can leave your Etahn as long as one of his IG88's is still alive at the end, and still get a partial victory. Speaking of, I would love to fly Terminators against that list. Low PS ships, yum yum yum....  :lol:

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Well when I fly Etan,  I don't try to keep everyone in arc all the time, because you become too predictable.    I use his ability for himself and if it helps others than I use it there too.   But I never fly my squad to totally take advantage of his ability.     Just use it when I can.    Also, late game when the shields are down, and he is left with another ship of yours, you get some major criticals.   This is where he really shines, which can turn the tide for sure.     Plus I usually give him the stress bot for more fun, plus calculation is really fun on him.    I also like to use him as a flanker with lone wolf too

Edited by eagletsi111

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Don't get me wrong, I''ll always defer to your math analyses, but I just have a hard time imagining his ability to have a fixed worth. More of, it is worth Y, if you have X number of ships, etc. Anyway, when/if you ever do get around to mathing him out, I would be very interested to hear it.

Dual IG's are certainly scary due to their unpredictability, but don't have a distinct MoV advantage in that matchup. If I can kill one, then you must kill Etahn abd something else, or kill everything except Etahn. Tall order in 60. Especially killing Etahn. Between evade, focus, and R2, he can manipulate the dice into taking exactly one hit better than almost anything else in the game. This'll cancel B's ability, then negate the one damage.

Your terminators DO get a distinct advantage against those 60/40 splits though. If you kill fat whomever (what they're best at), then they have to table you to win. So kill the fatty, then split up and play keep away!

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Don't get me wrong, I''ll always defer to your math analyses, but I just have a hard time imagining his ability to have a fixed worth. More of, it is worth Y, if you have X number of ships, etc. Anyway, when/if you ever do get around to mathing him out, I would be very interested to hear it.

Dual IG's are certainly scary due to their unpredictability, but don't have a distinct MoV advantage in that matchup. If I can kill one, then you must kill Etahn abd something else, or kill everything except Etahn. Tall order in 60. Especially killing Etahn. Between evade, focus, and R2, he can manipulate the dice into taking exactly one hit better than almost anything else in the game. This'll cancel B's ability, then negate the one damage.

Your terminators DO get a distinct advantage against those 60/40 splits though. If you kill fat whomever (what they're best at), then they have to table you to win. So kill the fatty, then split up and play keep away!

There is a similarity in this with Cracken.  He gets more valuable the longer he's in the game.  On an individual level he's not that great, but when paired with the right squad mates, he can shine.  I think Etahn is a similar ship, and I think this fits with a number of "support" ships.  Some abilities are hard to quantify because they aren't jousting, they are there to help the squad as a hole.  Yorr's ability is hard to predict how useful it will be.  You could just spend the points on a OGP and save 3 points, but when he does help the team, it could be invaluable.  MJ's jousting values are a great tool to use for ship analysis, but squads are more then the sum of their parts.

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Don't get me wrong, I''ll always defer to your math analyses, but I just have a hard time imagining his ability to have a fixed worth. More of, it is worth Y, if you have X number of ships, etc. Anyway, when/if you ever do get around to mathing him out, I would be very interested to hear it.

 

Yes, that's exactly it, his ability scales with the number of ships. It essentially increases the damage done per ship, and that value will of course depend of the target has shields or not. In Howlrunner's case it increases the damage output of the surrounding ships by about a third.

 

Your terminators DO get a distinct advantage against those 60/40 splits though. If you kill fat whomever (what they're best at), then they have to table you to win. So kill the fatty, then split up and play keep away!

 

But I have this habitual problem of using the "Conan the Barbarian" strategy, and I'm not content until I wipe every ship off the board...  :D

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Don't get me wrong, I''ll always defer to your math analyses, but I just have a hard time imagining his ability to have a fixed worth. More of, it is worth Y, if you have X number of ships, etc. Anyway, when/if you ever do get around to mathing him out, I would be very interested to hear it.

 

Yes, that's exactly it, his ability scales with the number of ships. It essentially increases the damage done per ship, and that value will of course depend of the target has shields or not. In Howlrunner's case it increases the damage output of the surrounding ships by about a third.

 

Your terminators DO get a distinct advantage against those 60/40 splits though. If you kill fat whomever (what they're best at), then they have to table you to win. So kill the fatty, then split up and play keep away!

 

But I have this habitual problem of using the "Conan the Barbarian" strategy, and I'm not content until I wipe every ship off the board...  :D

That's what makes them the TERMINATORS

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I just want to listen to the part about the IG-88.  Where in the podcast can I find that?

It's a wonderful podcast, you really should listen to the whole thing.

 

Don't have time to.  But MajorJuggler mentioned that there will be a part about IG-88s in this one, so I want to listen to just that part.

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Just start listening. ;-)

I talk about my IG88BD squad briefly in the first few minutes. Its B and D disregard my calling it B and C initially.

Edit: I also talk about Opportunist in the context of IG88s near the end of the podcast, don't have the timestamp handy.

Edited by MajorJuggler

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