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KineticOperator

Rogue One

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I'm too lazy to research it right now, but I thought I had heard at one point that the original script for Alien had every character written as gender neutral so that they could cast whoever they wanted, and for the attributes each of the actors would bring to their role. I think that'd be a pretty cool way to write a story.

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I'm not sure if it's still the same way, but department store toy sections used to be really illustrative of the problems our current culture has with gender roles. 80-90% of the floor space dedicated to cool looking toys, games, build systems, etc, all explicitly targeting adorable young boys. And then some pink little tragedy targeting young girls, mostly with fashion-related 'toys', plush infants and kitchenware. :|

 

 

And then we wonder why recent generations of young girls aren't all that interested in toys or games. 

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I would hope for a female lead so we might eventually reach a place where any given casting call for a given film has roughly even odds for male or female leads (and, eventually, *** leads, visible minority leads, transgender leads, etc). We'll never reach that place if culture just assumes that the male lead ought to be the default.

 

 

EDIT: ...Why is the 'G' of LGBT a banned word???

 

 

Again, I hope for a good story (and having seen Monsters, I'm not too worried there). If a story with a female lead is what is needed in Star Wars, then yes, by all means yes. 

 

I would like to see Rogue One about the daughter of Han and Leia as she leads the fight against the Imperial Remnant. That would be a great setting with a great setup for a character with a nod towards the Legends. I'd like it even better if the lead of Rogue One won't develop any force powers.

 

Oh, maybe no fighter pilots other than Starbuck, but Janeway captained and Starship Troopers (in the movie, the book was more equal I believe) had only female pilots.

 

I do fully agree with this article for instance: http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-25494967

But I feel this must flow naturally from the story and not be imposed for external purposes.

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Isn't it more likely that Rogue One takes place in the TFA time frame by the way?

 

And as long as they write a role and find the right actor or actress to fit, who cares if it is a man or a woman?

 

I don't know, maybe because other than Starbuck from the new Battlestar Galactica, there have been no female fighter pilot leads in any movies ever?  Or how about because Star Wars hasn't had a single female combat pilot in any of the movies?  How about because girls like me grew up having to watch boys do all the things we wanted to do on TV and in movies, with the knowledge that we weren't legally allowed to do it in real life either (women couldn't be fighter pilots legally in the USA till I was 13)?  There is a freak load of horrible damage that needs to be undone pronto.

 

And if none of those reasons is good enough, how about variety being the spice of life?

 

 

And because I'm on a little bit of a hysterical feminist rant now, I have to add that to this day, I can't join the US military and serve in the infantry, in tanks, in submarines, in the special forces - the list goes on and on.  Women are so clearly second-class citizens in this country it is frankly shocking considering how open-minded we all think we are.

 

Oh how the women of the world would love to be slighted so.....A real hysterical feminist rant should be reserved for the plight of our sisters worldwide, not for the real or imagined deficiencies in the West.

 

As to a female lead, I think the SW brand could actually pull that off maturely. Movies targeted at young males tend to over do the sexual appeal of a female lead to the point of being absurd, but I think that would be less likely in Star Wars, I'm game.

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Oh how the women of the world would love to be slighted so.....A real hysterical feminist rant should be reserved for the plight of our sisters worldwide, not for the real or imagined deficiencies in the West.

 

 

 

Don't worry, I issue those on an almost-daily basis as well.  It's just that nobody on the forums gets me worked up over Boko Haram or the Taliban.

 

But do keep in mind that women's rights being worse in many other places on the planet doesn't make them being unequal here any better.

Edited by Nightshrike

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Oh, and speaking of strong female characters, apparently the lead in Scandal is touted as a strong woman, but after a season or so of seeing her whimper whenever the president walked up I was done with that. 

 

She couldn't hold a candle to (most of) the women of The Good Wife, Gina Torres in Suits, and a whole host of others I could name. But there, too, it is the story that dictates the character.

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Oh, and speaking of strong female characters, apparently the lead in Scandal is touted as a strong woman, but after a season or so of seeing her whimper whenever the president walked up I was done with that. 

 

She couldn't hold a candle to (most of) the women of The Good Wife, Gina Torres in Suits, and a whole host of others I could name. But there, too, it is the story that dictates the character.

 

I think that we have to specify "strong" female character is wholly indicative of the problem.

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There are a lot of problems in Hollywood, few if any of which will be corrected with this movie.  How about ageism?  I would appreciate a show with adult characters cast into the adult roles.  The latest Star Trek tried to convince me that the Federation would not only put a starship in the hands of children, but the flagship of its fleet.  How about an actress over 40 cast as ANYTHING without digital editing and makeup trying to make her look 20 years younger than she actually is, or an actor over 40 who is allowed a love interest with a woman even remotely his age.

 

It's the world we live in, and Hollywood responds to appearances.  Unfortunately, that is exactly as shallow as it sounds.  I am just thankful that George Lucas has moved on, so I can be spared the blatantly ugly racist stereotypes he insisted on hammering into the prequels.  In the meantime, Jek Porkins.

Edited by KineticOperator

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But I feel this must flow naturally from the story and not be imposed for external purposes.

 

I honestly don't understand what you mean. Everything in a story or film is imposed upon it by it's creator, and the majority of premises for stories aren't really gender-preferential. 

 

 

For example, suppose that Carrie had been cast as the roguish, blaster-twirling smuggler in ANH, while Harrison was cast as the war hardened, fear-for-nothing noble. How would that fundamentally alter the story? If it wouldn't, why not swap the roles - even intentionally at the outset, just to also provide that power fantasy experience for young women who are interested in it? There's a clear positive gain, and I don't see any downside at all. 

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Isn't it more likely that Rogue One takes place in the TFA time frame by the way?

 

And as long as they write a role and find the right actor or actress to fit, who cares if it is a man or a woman?

 

I don't know, maybe because other than Starbuck from the new Battlestar Galactica, there have been no female fighter pilot leads in any movies ever?  Or how about because Star Wars hasn't had a single female combat pilot in any of the movies?  How about because girls like me grew up having to watch boys do all the things we wanted to do on TV and in movies, with the knowledge that we weren't legally allowed to do it in real life either (women couldn't be fighter pilots legally in the USA till I was 13)?  There is a freak load of horrible damage that needs to be undone pronto.

 

And if none of those reasons is good enough, how about variety being the spice of life?

 

And because I'm on a little bit of a hysterical feminist rant now, I have to add that to this day, I can't join the US military and serve in the infantry, in tanks, in submarines, in the special forces - the list goes on and on.  Women are so clearly second-class citizens in this country it is frankly shocking considering how open-minded we all think we are.

Take the "social justice warrior" pseudo intellectual crap else where night strike. Wow, you really have it soooo bad in America. Have you ever travelled anywhere? This is an x-wing forum. Not a casting call for next semesters production of the bijingo monologues. Save it for your "Gender studies" 72 hour workshop next week entitled " Genocide and Man-spreading: is there a difference?"

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Take the "social justice warrior" pseudo intellectual crap else where night strike. Wow, you really have it soooo bad in America. Have you ever travelled anywhere? This is an x-wing forum. Not a casting call for next semesters production of the bijingo monologues. Save it for your "Gender studies" 72 hour workshop next week entitled " Genocide and Man-spreading: is there a difference?"

 

 

Chip on your shoulder much? Did your sisters steal your last cookie?

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Isn't it more likely that Rogue One takes place in the TFA time frame by the way?

 

And as long as they write a role and find the right actor or actress to fit, who cares if it is a man or a woman?

 

I don't know, maybe because other than Starbuck from the new Battlestar Galactica, there have been no female fighter pilot leads in any movies ever?  Or how about because Star Wars hasn't had a single female combat pilot in any of the movies?  How about because girls like me grew up having to watch boys do all the things we wanted to do on TV and in movies, with the knowledge that we weren't legally allowed to do it in real life either (women couldn't be fighter pilots legally in the USA till I was 13)?  There is a freak load of horrible damage that needs to be undone pronto.

 

And if none of those reasons is good enough, how about variety being the spice of life?

 

And because I'm on a little bit of a hysterical feminist rant now, I have to add that to this day, I can't join the US military and serve in the infantry, in tanks, in submarines, in the special forces - the list goes on and on.  Women are so clearly second-class citizens in this country it is frankly shocking considering how open-minded we all think we are.

Take the "social justice warrior" pseudo intellectual crap else where night strike. Wow, you really have it soooo bad in America. Have you ever travelled anywhere? This is an x-wing forum. Not a casting call for next semesters production of the bijingo monologues. Save it for your "Gender studies" 72 hour workshop next week entitled " Genocide and Man-spreading: is there a difference?"

 

 

I have traveled from up through South Africa doing volunteer work with MSF. Does this meet whatever your arbitrary requirements are for commenting on imbalanced gender representation in western media? 

 

Commenting on a real problem is not 'pseudo intellectual', even if that real problem is not as severe as a pogrom. Whatever you want to posit as a contender for the world's worst current problem, it probably isn't best to use that problem as a lance against any opinion you do not like. 

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Take the "social justice warrior" pseudo intellectual crap else where night strike. Wow, you really have it soooo bad in America. Have you ever travelled anywhere? This is an x-wing forum. Not a casting call for next semesters production of the bijingo monologues. Save it for your "Gender studies" 72 hour workshop next week entitled " Genocide and Man-spreading: is there a difference?"

 

 

Chip on your shoulder much? Did your sisters steal your last cookie?

 

I want to believe he's a troll doing this to get a rise out of people.  I have a hard time believing anybody is really that stupid and backwards.

 

Edited by Nightshrike

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Oh and since I'm on a common sense rant there are a multitude of reasons women are not doing those jobs in the military. Some obvious, some not. Some understandable, some a little suspect.

For example do you know what "hot bunking" is? If you find out you may understand why it's difficult to get women on subs. Women do serve on subs but only at the officer level.

Have you ever served? Did you REALLY even consider serving or are you just ruffling your feathers in between your "Destroying the Patriarchy" and "How Communism really can work this time" survey courses.

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Oh and since I'm on a common sense rant there are a multitude of reasons women are not doing those jobs in the military. Some obvious, some not. Some understandable, some a little suspect.

For example do you know what "hot bunking" is? If you find out you may understand why it's difficult to get women on subs. Women do serve on subs but only at the officer level.

Have you ever served? Did you REALLY even consider serving or are you just ruffling your feathers in between your "Destroying the Patriarchy" and "How Communism really can work this time" survey courses.

 

You know, I get the feeling your name refers to the type of person enumerated in the works of Colonel Dave Grossman, whom I wholeheartedly respect.  What Grossman preached, and what the term Sheepdog represents, is a watchful citizen who stands ready to be a guardian for the safety and liberty of him or herself and others.  Consider, for a moment, that liberty can't always be defended with a gun.  Sometimes it needs changes in worldview too.

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 I have a hard time believing anybody is really that stupid and backwards.

 

 

*slowly sidling away

I'm not.

*picking up the pace

After all...

*starts running

He's an American 

*prepare to make the jump to lightspeed!

 

:D

 

Sorry, couldn't resist, all too easy.

 

Look, I know that in the US things have taken a turn for the much worse since the nineties and early 2000's and that civil rights are regressing because of extremely rich people buying the imposition of their morality. It wouldn't surprise me if civil unrest would rise to the height of the sixties and higher soon.

 

But things aren't that bad the world over :P

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Oh and since I'm on a common sense rant there are a multitude of reasons women are not doing those jobs in the military. Some obvious, some not. Some understandable, some a little suspect.

For example do you know what "hot bunking" is? If you find out you may understand why it's difficult to get women on subs. Women do serve on subs but only at the officer level.

Have you ever served? Did you REALLY even consider serving or are you just ruffling your feathers in between your "Destroying the Patriarchy" and "How Communism really can work this time" survey courses.

 

You know, I get the feeling your name refers to the type of person enumerated in the works of Colonel Dave Grossman, whom I wholeheartedly respect.  What Grossman preached, and what the term Sheepdog represents, is a watchful citizen who stands ready to be a guardian for the safety and liberty of him or herself and others.  Consider, for a moment, that liberty can't always be defended with a gun.  Sometimes it needs changes in worldview too.

Completely agree. If you care about women and helping them in the world I would (honestly, truly) suggest that there are a ton of bigger issues affecting and hurting women than "under representation" in science fiction.

I apologize if I seem course. Traveling as you have in Africa I think you have probably seen more REALLY bad stuff in regards to how women are treated. I have seen some as well and find the typical woe is me American undergrad speech terribly lacking.

Nice pick up on the name reference.

Sorry about my tone. Fly casual

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Oh and since I'm on a common sense rant there are a multitude of reasons women are not doing those jobs in the military. Some obvious, some not. Some understandable, some a little suspect.

For example do you know what "hot bunking" is? If you find out you may understand why it's difficult to get women on subs. Women do serve on subs but only at the officer level.

Have you ever served? Did you REALLY even consider serving or are you just ruffling your feathers in between your "Destroying the Patriarchy" and "How Communism really can work this time" survey courses.

 

You know, I get the feeling your name refers to the type of person enumerated in the works of Colonel Dave Grossman, whom I wholeheartedly respect.  What Grossman preached, and what the term Sheepdog represents, is a watchful citizen who stands ready to be a guardian for the safety and liberty of him or herself and others.  Consider, for a moment, that liberty can't always be defended with a gun.  Sometimes it needs changes in worldview too.

Completely agree. If you care about women and helping them in the world I would (honestly, truly) suggest that there are a ton of bigger issues affecting and hurting women than "under representation" in science fiction.

I apologize if I seem course. Traveling as you have in Africa I think you have probably seen more REALLY bad stuff in regards to how women are treated. I have seen some as well and find the typical woe is me American undergrad speech terribly lacking.

Nice pick up on the name reference.

Sorry about my tone. Fly casual

 

 

No worries.  Apologize if I was a bit over the top as well.  I get that way sometimes.

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I want Rogue One to be about Princess Leia's adventures as a Slave Girl. A minor retcon can have us following her trials over several days until Luke finally arrives to initiate the rescue. :)

Now that's funny. Nice one

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But I feel this must flow naturally from the story and not be imposed for external purposes.

 

I honestly don't understand what you mean. Everything in a story or film is imposed upon it by it's creator, and the majority of premises for stories aren't really gender-preferential. 

 

 

For example, suppose that Carrie had been cast as the roguish, blaster-twirling smuggler in ANH, while Harrison was cast as the war hardened, fear-for-nothing noble. How would that fundamentally alter the story? If it wouldn't, why not swap the roles - even intentionally at the outset, just to also provide that power fantasy experience for young women who are interested in it? There's a clear positive gain, and I don't see any downside at all. 

 

 

 

Yes..  maybe... uhm ... no

 

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