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Holzy

Force Move Clarification

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2 part question for Force Move: Hurl

 

For the 'Force Move: Hurl' upgrade, it says that it requires a combined Discipline check with a difficulty equal to the silhouette of the object being thrown. Then it goes on to say that it follows all rules for ranged attacks for damage, ranged defense, and aiming. 

 

(All of the following assume the PC rolls enough Force pips to activate the power appropriately). How does this apply to attacks at different ranges? If a PC is throwing a silhouette 1 object at a target from long range, does the 1 difficulty of the silhouette size increase the Hard difficulty to hit at long range? Does it upgrade the Hard check? Is it simply the silhouette size that determines the difficulty and, barring any ranged defense abilities, it's all that's required to hit from any distance?

 

The second part: How would an Opposed check be handled against Nemesis A when the PC decides to throw Nemesis A into Nemesis B. Hitting Nemesis B seems pretty straight forward once the first part of the question is answered, but what would you require of the PC to pick up and throw Nemesis A in the first place? 2 separate rolls (Discipline vs Discipline/Athletics/Coordination etc, then the combined Force roll and Discipline vs ranged difficulty)?

 

I appreciate any input provided, thank you.

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(All of the following assume the PC rolls enough Force pips to activate the power appropriately). How does this apply to attacks at different ranges? If a PC is throwing a silhouette 1 object at a target from long range, does the 1 difficulty of the silhouette size increase the Hard difficulty to hit at long range? Does it upgrade the Hard check? Is it simply the silhouette size that determines the difficulty and, barring any ranged defense abilities, it's all that's required to hit from any distance?

Yeah, just Sil unless there's a modifier like defenses or aiming. The risk is that you don't roll enough pips to get to long range or you spend the XP for it to not be an issue.

 

 

The second part: How would an Opposed check be handled against Nemesis A when the PC decides to throw Nemesis A into Nemesis B. Hitting Nemesis B seems pretty straight forward once the first part of the question is answered, but what would you require of the PC to pick up and throw Nemesis A in the first place? 2 separate rolls (Discipline vs Discipline/Athletics/Coordination etc, then the combined Force roll and Discipline vs ranged difficulty)?

Up to the GM, but yes, if you have a Nemesis F&D did say that with something like a Jedi trying to toss a Nem across the battlefield he could use his Resilience as an opposed difficulty on the throwers check.

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Regarding Move and the "hurl objects" Control Upgrade, it's only considered a ranged attack for purposes of things that affect the difficulty dice pool of ranged attacks, such as Ranged Defense and talents that upgrade the difficulty of ranged attacks such as Adversary, Dodge, and Side Step.  The Move power as a default range of short range, and you'd need to activate any purchased Range Upgrades in order to attack targets beyond short range.  But the difficulty would still be based upon the silhouette of the hurled object.

 

So as an example, if you want to hurl a large storage crate (Silhouette 1) into a group of battle droids at medium range who are benefiting from cover (ranged defense 1), you'd need three Force points (1 for the base power, 1 for the Strength Upgrade, 1 for the Range Upgrade) to get the full effect, then make a Discipline check against a difficultly of 1 purple (for the Silhouette 1 object) and 1 setback (for the point of ranged defense).  If you only managed to generate 2 Force points, you could opt to hurl a smaller crate (Silhouette 0) which would set the difficultly at 0 purple and 1 setback die (from the droids' ranged defense of 1).

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On the Nemesis part, that's much less clear-cut.

 

Quite frankly, the Beta put the decision of which skill to use to resist a Force power into the hands of the GM, with the note that Discipline is a good fallback to resist a Force power if nothing else seems appropriate to the scene.

 

So for the example given, Nemesis A could use any of those skills to resist the power.  Of course, since there's only the one Discipline check that the attacking Force user is making, it'd be up to the GM as to how to handle the difficulty of attacking Nemesis B.

 

Some possible options include:

- Increase the difficulty of the opposed check by the Silhouette of Nemesis B.

- Apply any ranged defense or difficulty upgrading talents that Nemesis B has to the difficulty of the opposed check.

- Make two sets of Discipline checks, though this does increase the time required to resolve the action (plus the system favors a "one check per action" approach).

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Thank you for the replies, I'm surprised that it's only the silhouette that determines the difficulty, with a high Discipline and or Willpower that can lead to a lot of easy uncancelled successes to increase the damage long and extreme ranges that is harder to come by for blaster wielders.

Edited by Holzy

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Thank you for the replies, I'm surprised that it's only the silhouette that determines the difficulty, with a high Discipline and or Willpower that can lead to a lot of easy uncancelled successes to increase the damage long and extreme ranges that is harder to come by for blaster wielders.

Not really. Run the numbers. Long and extreme range blasters arent that hard to come by really. Compared to what a force user needs to invest, the blaster guys may actually be better off depending on your view.

As dono points out you need a minimum FR2, and the upgrades to make this work. The XP cost for that is going to total out a lot higher then the Bounty Hunter Assassin with Sniper Shot, a few ranks in ranged heavy and a blaster rifle, all for a likely result only a few points lower in damage...

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Separate question, obviously Move would be the force power used, but how would a Saber Throw work? Use the Move power on the lightsaber to turn it into a ranged attack?

 

There's a lot of different ways you could conceivably do it. Keep it close to Saber Throw and make it follow all Ranged Attack rules (basing initial difficulty off of distance to you). You could base the difficulty off the silhouette, and then apply Ranged Attack rule stuff (Adversary, defense, etc.) like with normal Move. Characteristic/Skill used can be Willpower/Discipline like Move or based on whatever the player would normally use for a Lightsaber check. You could possibly make the "fine manipulation" Control upgrade mandatory.

 

I won't advise any specific way in deciding difficulty/skill, because I can see the merits and arguments in all cases. I would say that it'd be just 1 Force Point total for both activating the power to throw and bringing it back in Short Range though (plus any extra if the player wants to bump up the Range or whatever).

 

 

Saber throw received its own Force talents on the specialization trees

 

Some Force Talents are meant to be alternative forms of force powers, typically geared towards specific use, but cheaper than buying an equivalent force power and upgrades. Overwhelm Emotions (FS-Exile) and Influence, Force Protection (Protector) and Protect, Intuitive Shot (Hunter) and Enhance, and so on.

Edited by Lathrop

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One of my players is talking about using fine manipulation to fight a saber battle at range with as many sabers as he can lift. Have not told him it will be as many as he can find :)

If he finds enough that will be an epic scene though...

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One of my players is talking about using fine manipulation to fight a saber battle at range with as many sabers as he can lift. Have not told him it will be as many as he can find :)

If he finds enough that will be an epic scene though...

Yeah I might set up a scene specifically for it when he is ready. But make sure the nemesis in question is a sunder weapon god.

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One of my players is talking about using fine manipulation to fight a saber battle at range with as many sabers as he can lift. Have not told him it will be as many as he can find :)

If he finds enough that will be an epic scene though...

Yeah I might set up a scene specifically for it when he is ready. But make sure the nemesis in question is a sunder weapon god.

 

 

Watch the movie Push to see how that would play out. It has an epic battle of two "move" type characters near the end which is pretty intense and honestly the nearly only reason to watch that movie.

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Watch the movie Push to see how that would play out. It has an epic battle of two "move" type characters near the end which is pretty intense and honestly the nearly only reason to watch that movie.

 

Hey, that's one of my fave low-budget B-type movies :)  I thought it was pretty good all the way through.  Can't say the Move battle is very "Star Wars" though...

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Watch the movie Push to see how that would play out. It has an epic battle of two "move" type characters near the end which is pretty intense and honestly the nearly only reason to watch that movie.

 

Hey, that's one of my fave low-budget B-type movies :)  I thought it was pretty good all the way through.  Can't say the Move battle is very "Star Wars" though...

 

 

Neither is using move to fight with multiple lightsabers from a distance, but for anyone contemplating that sort of "un star wars" craziness, Push is a great place to see similar in action.

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The way the Power is worded, you can move something of appropriate size from Short Range anywhere up to your Max Range Upgrade. This would include into engaged range.

So you can pull someone into Engaged range if they are already in Short.

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The way the Power is worded, you can move something of appropriate size from Short Range anywhere up to your Max Range Upgrade. This would include into engaged range.

So you can pull someone into Engaged range if they are already in Short.

The wording of Move is bad, and has been clarified that activating Range upgrades increases the rand at which the object can start as well as ends, I'll find the clarification and post it here for you.

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Ok it's in this thread:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/108101-ffg-developer-answered-questions/?p=1111204

But here is the specific part, it's the second question asked:

The book states that "if the player wants to use Move to throw multiple objects at multiple targets, he may do so using all the rules for hitting targets with the Auto-fire quality"

First question:

It's unclear to me if the autofire rules are used when throwing multiple objects due to activating Magnitude upgrades, or when trying to throw multiple objects without using the magnitude upgrades.

For example, if I am a force user wanting throwing a silhouette 0 sized stone at a 2 stormtroopers at short range. Would I...

1.) Use autofire rules and not bother activating the magnitude upgrade.

Or...

2.) Use autofire rules and still have to activate the magnitude upgrade.

Does this mean the PC can use the control upgrade to move two objects (assuming the necessary pips to activate any other upgrades for range and strength) as long as the difficulty is adjusted using the autofire rules? Or must the character also activate the necessary Magnitude upgrades as well

Second Question:

The Range upgrade says I can spend force points to increase maximum range at which he Force user can move an object. There is some disagreement between me and my players with what this means.

By default a Force user can move an object at short range. If I activate all three range upgrades, would my character be able to move an object that is starting at Extreme range from my character, or just move an object from short range all the way to extreme range if I want?

Answered by Sam Stewart:

To your first question, you would still have to activate Magnitude to throw multiple objects. So you’d have to spend all the Force points, and increase the difficulty, and target the most difficult target.

To your second question, range upgrades increase the range that you can start effecting objects.

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To your second question Richard,

 

Does that mean you can bring an object from extreme range all the way to close range or vice versa? or does the move power affect up to 1 range band (moving an item from close to medium or from extreme to long) ?

 

 

Another Question i thought of regarding all powers in general, When your enemies as grouped as a squad or minion group, making a force power check on one of them means you affect them all (because they share their skills and Wounds)?  

This could explain a force move power that maybe kills one, but drops prone all the rest...

Such explanation can also be attributed to an Influence or Misdirect check where the PC/NPC beguiles the whole group.

Or is this too much?

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The Range upgrade says I can spend force points to increase maximum range at which he Force user can move an object. There is some disagreement between me and my players with what this means.

 

By default a Force user can move an object at short range. If I activate all three range upgrades, would my character be able to move an object that is starting at Extreme range from my character, or just move an object from short range all the way to extreme range if I want?

 

Answered by Sam Stewart:

[...] range upgrades increase the range that you can start effecting objects.

 

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To your second question Richard,

 

Does that mean you can bring an object from extreme range all the way to close range or vice versa? or does the move power affect up to 1 range band (moving an item from close to medium or from extreme to long) ?

 

The clarified RAW means that the object/s may start anywhere within the range of the power and be moved to anywhere else within the range of the power, this includes Extreme to Engaged and vice versa.

 

 

Another Question i thought of regarding all powers in general, When your enemies as grouped as a squad or minion group, making a force power check on one of them means you affect them all (because they share their skills and Wounds)?  

This could explain a force move power that maybe kills one, but drops prone all the rest...

Such explanation can also be attributed to an Influence or Misdirect check where the PC/NPC beguiles the whole group.

Or is this too much?

When targeting a Minion group they are always considered a single target. Activating Knockdown (or using 3 Threat rolled on their own check) will knock the entire group prone, not just a single individual.

 

In the case of Move I will often increase the Silhouette of the whole group by 1 over the normal Silhouette of a single minion, this isn't called out anywhere in the rules, but is a common interpretation.

 

The only time Minion Groups are treated less as an individual target is when they are hit by a Blast. The initial hit from a grenade will do the normal damage in the normal minion way, but if a Blast is activated on them then each Individual in the group is hit separately. Treat them all as individuals for the calculation of damage:

 

A hypothetical example

A 8 Damage, Blast 6 weapon, hits a group of 8 minions, with 2 success and 2 Advantage. Each has 5 Wounds and 4 Soak, so group total wounds are 40.

First the basic attack is calculated, 8+2-4=6 Wounds suffered, group is at: 5/1/0/0/0/0/0/0, 1 Minion is eliminated.

Blast is activated next, each individual will suffer 6+2-4=4 Wounds, therefore 7x4= 28 more wounds are suffered by the entire group, now they are at 5/5/5/5/5/5/4/0.

 

With a single grenade 6 of the 8 Minions are taken out, and another is close to down.

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