How to play TIE Defender?

[Guf79 16]

Hi.

 

I love the Phantom. I love the E-wing. I love the Z-95. Played a lot with the ships from that wave, except for the Defender. I´ve never even tried it once.

 

I just don´t know how to field it. Yes, it has great stats for a snub-fighter, and yes, it is nifty that it has a white Koigran turn, but:

 

1. I don´t really like the skills that comes with Rexler Brath and colonel Vessery for the points you have to dish out for them. (Although their skills ARE cool!)

 

2. Any kind of upgrades for them would over-price the ship even more, and I feel it´s too much like putting all your eggs into on basket.

 

I really want to use the Defender, but how?

 

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciatet.

 

Thanks.

[SpikeSpiegel 2,077]

Rexler Brath with Lone Wolf and an HLC is a pretty deadly setup.

Unfortunately, choosing to fly any Defender will be extremely costly to your list since they're all so expensive.

[boomboom517 5]

Rexler Brath with Lone Wolf and an HLC is a pretty deadly setup.

Unfortunately, choosing to fly any Defender will be extremely costly to your list since they're all so expensive.

the defender suffers space marine syndrome less powerful than it should be and costing a lot of points (personally i think the defender should be 4466 but i'm glad it's not just think of the point cost!!! thoe it still makes me sad that it's full gloy does no show on the tabletop what is annoying is the lack of torp and systems slot that this fighter should have) i agree with the hlc though the autoblaster might be better as it basically turns into uncountable crits still a 2 defender list with all the trimming is a good match for small builds but will die to swarm tactics apparently its better in epic for harrying coverts.

[ParaGoomba Slayer 3,180]

1.) 5 forward, target lock as action.

2.) Enemy ships bump into you.

3.) 4 k turn, focus as action.

That's pretty much it. In general try flying in such a way that a 3 turn/bank or 5 straight would be good. You really lack the ability to do any tight close in dogfighting at all.

[Guf79 16]

1.) 5 forward, target lock as action.

2.) Enemy ships bump into you.

3.) 4 k turn, focus as action.

That's pretty much it. In general try flying in such a way that a 3 turn/bank or 5 straight would be good. You really lack the ability to do any tight close in dogfighting at all.

 

What about upgrades?

 

I was thinking of fielding it without any, and just take the Delta sqn pilot. Will that be eaten alive?

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

I really want to use the Defender, but how?

 

As far as list-building goes, I've found three rules for using them effectively.

 

(1) Run one.

 

Even without boost their speed means they work well as flankers, and they're actually better in a joust than most people expect. You can feasibly substitute a single Delta for a pair of TIE fighters, if you have a few leftover points. But because they're not terribly efficient fighters, the more you run the more you're going to struggle to earn back your aggregate investment. 

 

(2) Keep it cheap.

 

Obviously "cheap" is relative, here, but I see a lot of people load them down and I think it's a mistake more often than not. Again, they have their strengths but raw statistical efficiency isn't one of them, and the more you spend on upgrades the harder it is for them to earn back what you spend.

 

(3) No, seriously: keep it cheap. 

 

If you're running 11 points of upgrades on a 30-point ship that started about 3 points in the hole, you're in trouble. The Mangler Cannon isn't much help on a ship that already has 3 Attack, and the Heavy Laser Cannon's range limitation doesn't get along very well with the Defender's dial. Missiles are almost certainly not a good idea. Engine Upgrade isn't a bad buy, but save it for Rexler Brath, who has enough pilot skill to use it effectively. Push the Limit is a bad idea because the Defender is so vulnerable to stress, and Predator is a bad idea on Vessery (although Brath likes it because it helps him save a focus token for his pilot ability).

 

Don't upgrade your Defenders unless you have a very good reason, and if you are looking at upgrades, look at cheap ones first: Adrenaline Rush, Veteran Instincts, and Flechette Cannon all work to your advantage without breaking the bank.

 

***

 

So with that in mind, here's a list I seriously considered taking to a couple of Store Championships:

 

Colonel Vessery (35)

 

Bounty Hunter (33)

 

Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)

 

Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)

 

Total: 100

 

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

 

The only real "upgrade" here is the 5 points you spend to upgrade a Delta to Vessery. But for those 5 points you get a 5-point increase in pilot skill and an advantage in the action economy that's second only to pilots like Darth Vader and Soontir Fel. It struggles with arc-dodging opponents, which is why I'm not running it in store champs, but even then Vessery is flexible enough (and Defenders are unusual enough) that a careless Whisper or Fel player can be surprised.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Vorpal Sword

[blade_mercurial 2,091]

My fave list with deltas is:

 

2 Deltas w/ ion cannons

Fel w/ PtL, autothrusters + target comp (through royal guard title).

 

Its 100 points though, so no initiative bid, and with so many Fel's hitting tables these days, that's a nice thing to have when you got one of your own (could drop the target comp if you wanted)

 

Don't be afraid of creating a nice blob of asteroids on your side of the table.  Try to get your opponent to fly towards it/in it.  Then use the 3 bank/turn followed by 4k to go in and out of the asteroids with your deltas, or if you see a good blocking opportunity, take it with 1 delta (provided your other ships can get shots at the actionless target).  Don't feel like you have to use the ion cannons all the time - just when doing so would give you an advantage, although it can be really great against large base ships with low agility (even dash will be leery of them).

Edited March 10, 2015 by blade_mercurial

[ficklegreendice 34,362]

Basically as above. The most competitive I've been able to make defenders are Delta + Delta + Soontir

 

And, honestly, Wave 6 makes them better

 

Delta Defender (Flechette)

Delta Defender (Flechette)

Soontir Fell (Push the Limit, Royal Guard Tie, Stealth Device, Auto-thrusters)

 

The change from good ole ion to stress is significant, but it's not exactly a loss. Flechette cannons are brutal against large ships (especially aggressors, who basically won't be able to shoot you the turn after), they still render non-defender ships unable to joust, and being able to slap on both defensive upgrades on Soontir makes him worlds more survivable (until you roll four blanks, which no joke happened last night, but an evade and auto-thrusters made sure he lived with only one direct hit )

[Biophysical 15,761]

You need to think turns ahead to get the most out of any ship, and the Defender requires it even more than most.  You don't get a lot of re-positioning options compared to similarly expensive single-arc ships, but you do get to K-turn and have full dial access the next round.  Most ships do not.  That K-turn is a real equalizer in a knife-fight, where you can use it repeatedly to gain a substantial action advantage over time.  No matter what movement shenanigans your opponent can pull, you can always just turn around and keep fighting.

 

Whether it's because of me or my opponents, I can't say, but I've actually had some success with souped-up Defenders, most recently getting 2nd in a Store Championship.  Rexler Brath with VI and an HLC is a solid ship in my book.  It adds a counter to Phantoms, and also is pretty good against big turrets thanks to his ability.  Again, the key is to think a few turns ahead.  I try to get a target lock when I first get into range at Range 3 and Rex has an extra die for defense.  Typically I'll keep it for the next round of firing after the rest of my squad has had a chance to chew on the target for a turn.  Then, you can Focus with him, spend the target lock for Re-rolls, and spend a Focus to flip those hits to crits.   Rexler Brath aside, I think Cannons have a place on any Defender.  They don't like being outnumbered at short range.  At short range, they're about as tough as 2 TIE fighters.  At long range they can get the range bonus for defense, and maybe an asteroid.  This makes them far tougher, and the cannon maintains their firepower at range.

 

Another thing to think about compared to many similarly priced ships is that due to the high AGI (3), they resist 2-dice attacks better than a lot of ships in the same price range.  This gives them a certain amount of freedom to go after bigger targets because they're not being ground down by Academy Pilots and Bandits as fast as some other ships might be.  You certainly can't ignore those attacks indefinitely, but they're not the same threat to a Defender as they are to something like Keyan Farlander.

[JFunk 257]

I'm considering the following squad for named defenders:

 

Babysitting the Brass

 

Brath+VI

Vessery

OGP+Fleet Officer+Adv Sensors

 

100pts

 

Probably not seriously competitive, but it could be fun. 

 

OGP uses sensors to FO and give the Defenders focus then reveals green and sheds stress. Brath can lock to give Vess a free lock on the same target, or in later rounds with a lock in place; can double focus to turtle or for a chance to flip his damage. Once the shuttle is out of position it can provide the lock for Vess' new targets or keep providing focus for the defenders. 

 

It violates Vorpal's "rule of one", which I think is a pretty good guideline, but it is pretty thematic and has decent synergy. 

Edited March 10, 2015 by JFunk

[blade_mercurial 2,091]

Whether it's because of me or my opponents, I can't say, but I've actually had some success with souped-up Defenders, most recently getting 2nd in a Store Championship.  Rexler Brath with VI and an HLC is a solid ship in my book.  It adds a counter to Phantoms, and also is pretty good against big turrets thanks to his ability.  Again, the key is to think a few turns ahead.  I try to get a target lock when I first get into range at Range 3 and Rex has an extra die for defense.  Typically I'll keep it for the next round of firing after the rest of my squad has had a chance to chew on the target for a turn.  Then, you can Focus with him, spend the target lock for Re-rolls, and spend a Focus to flip those hits to crits.   Rexler Brath aside, I think Cannons have a place on any Defender.  They don't like being outnumbered at short range.  At short range, they're about as tough as 2 TIE fighters.  At long range they can get the range bonus for defense, and maybe an asteroid.  This makes them far tougher, and the cannon maintains their firepower at range.

I read your report in the battle report forum and I am interested in trying the same or similar build w/ Rexler & Vessery.  OP should check it out too!

[ParaGoomba Slayer 3,180]

I'm hesitant to play a build where 1/3rd of it is a shuttle. After the second round of firing it's a two ship build since the space cow definitely isn't turning around anytime soon, lol.

[blade_mercurial 2,091]

Basically as above. The most competitive I've been able to make defenders are Delta + Delta + Soontir

 

And, honestly, Wave 6 makes them better

 

Delta Defender (Flechette)

Delta Defender (Flechette)

Soontir Fell (Push the Limit, Royal Guard Tie, Stealth Device, Auto-thrusters)

 

The change from good ole ion to stress is significant, but it's not exactly a loss. Flechette cannons are brutal against large ships (especially aggressors, who basically won't be able to shoot you the turn after), they still render non-defender ships unable to joust, and being able to slap on both defensive upgrades on Soontir makes him worlds more survivable (until you roll four blanks, which no joke happened last night, but an evade and auto-thrusters made sure he lived with only one direct hit )

Only concern I have with flechette cannon is its useless vs. Push the Limit.  Something which is gonna be very common in the 'new' meta by the looks of it.  Conversely, ion cannon is scary as hell for PtL users...

[JFunk 257]

I'm hesitant to play a build where 1/3rd of it is a shuttle. After the second round of firing it's a two ship build since the space cow definitely isn't turning around anytime soon, lol.

 

If you're referring to the build I posted, it's a two ship build from the start honestly as the shuttle is only going to have unmodified attacks when it's doling out focus.

 

I guess when I start to think about the shuttle being a 27 point upgrade across two defenders the squad makes even less sense competitively.   

[polmoneys 205]

I like to pair a Delta with Whisper + Intel Agent to get some dial info and use it as a blocker. The white k-turn is the best maneuver 99% of the time which simplifies the thinking,a nice bonus 4 long hour tournaments dealing wih decloacks.

When running named pilots, imo Chiri + Rexler can do nice things together and Vesseri needs bomber support.

These days Ioad deffensive upgrades first, HU on named pilots and SD on Delta.

I'll be taking a delta to the store championship

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

It violates Vorpal's "rule of one", which I think is a pretty good guideline, but it is pretty thematic and has decent synergy.

...the code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

More fundamentally, I'm trying to say that you shouldn't just splash any number of Defenders into a list. You have to think carefully about why they're there and what they're going to accomplish, and that's a far easier determination to make with one Defender than with two.

Same with EPTs, cannons, etc.: if there's a particular reason you want or need a particular upgrade, you should use that upgrade no matter how expensive it is. But do it with forethought, not just because you have an empty upgrade slot and some leftover points.

But if you have a clear idea of why you have two Defenders in your list, then go for it! I've played Jonus/2x Delta + Mangler quite successfully, which violates all of my own rules.

[nigeltastic 3,808]

Defenders are honestly one of the best gun boats in the game in my opinion, and some of the best jousters. The reason I say this is simple, they win every time that moment comes after the first pass of a joust where both ships kturn by being able to kturn immediately again and get behind someone. The key to flying defenders is be careful and use your cannon to get great range shots. My favorite is brath with hlc and predator, which is a whopping 47 points, but if you fly carefully you should be able to toast most anything that fights you.

Like someone said above, be careful and think turns ahead, knife fighting with defenders is a great way to have them die. You really want to out joust your opponent with the power of the 4k.

[draco193 491]

I've recently been running

Vessery with hlc and vi

Carnor Jax with PtL tc and Autothrusters

Shuttle with the title

It's enjoyed quite a bit of success with it. Letting the defender take a 4 dice attack at all range levels is a great counter to those high agility and evade ships that I seem to run into a lot. I've thought about switching out the shuttle with a souped up bomber but it needs testing.

[WWHSD 9,273]

I'm considering the following squad for named defenders:

 

Babysitting the Brass

 

Brath+VI

Vessery

OGP+Fleet Officer+Adv Sensors

 

100pts

 

Probably not seriously competitive, but it could be fun. 

 

OGP uses sensors to FO and give the Defenders focus then reveals green and sheds stress. Brath can lock to give Vess a free lock on the same target, or in later rounds with a lock in place; can double focus to turtle or for a chance to flip his damage. Once the shuttle is out of position it can provide the lock for Vess' new targets or keep providing focus for the defenders. 

 

It violates Vorpal's "rule of one", which I think is a pretty good guideline, but it is pretty thematic and has decent synergy. 

 

I think I'd swap VI onto to Vessery. That would allow Vessery to shoot first which does two things; it strips shields for Rexlar's shot and lets Rexlar spend the target lock to modify his own attack. 

 

It has always seemed to me that FFG got the PS for Vessery and Rexlar reversed.

[Guf79 16]

Thank you all for the advice.

 

It would seem that the majority leans towards a vanilla fighter, and I might just go for that in my next game. Then at least I get try it out, and maybe find out what´s missing on it.

[ficklegreendice 34,362]

 

Basically as above. The most competitive I've been able to make defenders are Delta + Delta + Soontir

 

And, honestly, Wave 6 makes them better

 

Delta Defender (Flechette)

Delta Defender (Flechette)

Soontir Fell (Push the Limit, Royal Guard Tie, Stealth Device, Auto-thrusters)

 

The change from good ole ion to stress is significant, but it's not exactly a loss. Flechette cannons are brutal against large ships (especially aggressors, who basically won't be able to shoot you the turn after), they still render non-defender ships unable to joust, and being able to slap on both defensive upgrades on Soontir makes him worlds more survivable (until you roll four blanks, which no joke happened last night, but an evade and auto-thrusters made sure he lived with only one direct hit )

Only concern I have with flechette cannon is its useless vs. Push the Limit.  Something which is gonna be very common in the 'new' meta by the looks of it.  Conversely, ion cannon is scary as hell for PtL users...

 

 

it's only scary for Soontir Fell if (big if) you hit him

 

big ships need both your ions to hit them

 

the limitations on Flechette are definitely worth noting (it's why they're 2 points) but I've found them to be more useful in my local group where there are tons upon tons of big ships and the small ships are mainly jousters

[JFunk 257]

 

I'm considering the following squad for named defenders:

 

Babysitting the Brass

 

Brath+VI

Vessery

OGP+Fleet Officer+Adv Sensors

 

100pts

 

Probably not seriously competitive, but it could be fun. 

 

OGP uses sensors to FO and give the Defenders focus then reveals green and sheds stress. Brath can lock to give Vess a free lock on the same target, or in later rounds with a lock in place; can double focus to turtle or for a chance to flip his damage. Once the shuttle is out of position it can provide the lock for Vess' new targets or keep providing focus for the defenders. 

 

It violates Vorpal's "rule of one", which I think is a pretty good guideline, but it is pretty thematic and has decent synergy. 

 

I think I'd swap VI onto to Vessery. That would allow Vessery to shoot first which does two things; it strips shields for Rexlar's shot and lets Rexlar spend the target lock to modify his own attack. 

 

It has always seemed to me that FFG got the PS for Vessery and Rexlar reversed.

 

 

That's good advice. It didn't even occur to me that the lock would be gone when big V took the shot.

[WWHSD 9,273]

 

 

I'm considering the following squad for named defenders:

 

Babysitting the Brass

 

Brath+VI

Vessery

OGP+Fleet Officer+Adv Sensors

 

100pts

 

Probably not seriously competitive, but it could be fun. 

 

OGP uses sensors to FO and give the Defenders focus then reveals green and sheds stress. Brath can lock to give Vess a free lock on the same target, or in later rounds with a lock in place; can double focus to turtle or for a chance to flip his damage. Once the shuttle is out of position it can provide the lock for Vess' new targets or keep providing focus for the defenders. 

 

It violates Vorpal's "rule of one", which I think is a pretty good guideline, but it is pretty thematic and has decent synergy. 

 

I think I'd swap VI onto to Vessery. That would allow Vessery to shoot first which does two things; it strips shields for Rexlar's shot and lets Rexlar spend the target lock to modify his own attack. 

 

It has always seemed to me that FFG got the PS for Vessery and Rexlar reversed.

 

 

That's good advice. It didn't even occur to me that the lock would be gone when big V took the shot.

 

 

It also lets Vessery shoot first at targets with Rebel Captive. As long as someone else has a TL on his target and he's getting Focus tokens from Fleet Officer he isn't that affected by stress.

[ParaGoomba Slayer 3,180]

1.) 5 forward, target lock as action.

2.) Enemy ships bump into you.

3.) 4 k turn, focus as action.

That's pretty much it. In general try flying in such a way that a 3 turn/bank or 5 straight would be good. You really lack the ability to do any tight close in dogfighting at all.

 

What about upgrades?

 

I was thinking of fielding it without any, and just take the Delta sqn pilot. Will that be eaten alive?

That's probably the best way of doing it. 3 PS is meaningless now that the Phantom has completely eliminated sub ps 9 bidding. Vessery naked with an adrenaline rush tacked on seems like a decent 36 points, but if you face a phantom you've pretty much autolost by sinking so many points into such a predictable ship with a meaningless 6 PS.

A friend of mine who loves to play super phantom got tired of me complaining and told me to fly less predictably with 3 deltas and 3 stealth devices LOL.

By the time you put 35 points into a Defender you could just have a Super Phantom. Rexler's PS is actually relevant with VI, but his ability is trash and he costs too many points. Tack and HLC on and you're just flying a sub par super whisper.

Best way is just a barebones 30 points. Flechette cannons seem nice, so that's a possibility too. Anything else is too much of a points sink.

[blade_mercurial 2,091]

 

By the time you put 35 points into a Defender you could just have a Super Phantom. Rexler's PS is actually relevant with VI, but his ability is trash and he costs too many points. Tack and HLC on and you're just flying a sub par super whisper.

Best way is just a barebones 30 points. Flechette cannons seem nice, so that's a possibility too. Anything else is too much of a points sink.

 

But the named pilots don't actually 'pay' for their abilities, really.  Assuming 1 pt per Pilot Skill increase, then Vessery @ PS6 is +5 PS & +5 squad points over a delta.  Brath @ PS 8 is +7 PS & +7 squad points.  So their abilities are basically free.  The reasons you might not run them has more to do with how many points you have available and what you want your defenders for and all that rather than their lack of 'point efficiency'.

 

Also, 'super' phantoms don't really work @ less than 40 points, whereas defenders work just fine under that mark.  So there isn't really overlap, although phantoms do tend to be more potent overall.  It can depend though - for example, with just a hull upgrade, any of the defenders becomes slightly more durable than a bounty hunter, and phantoms cannot boast that kind of tankiness.  So again, it all depends on what you're looking to get out of a particular ship...