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LukeZZ

Jyn Odan Trick Shot: Counting Spaces and Quick Draw

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Trick Shot

1 Strain: Use before you declare an attack with a Ranged weapon. You can draw line of sight from any space within 3 spaces.

 

Quick Draw

2 Strain: Use at the start of a hostile figure's activation. Interrupt to perform an attack with a Pistol targeting that figure. Limit once per activation.

 

Counting Spaces

If a figure’s ability specifies to choose something within a set number of spaces, players count spaces from the figure using the ability.

Likewise, if an ability specifies to choose an adjacent figure, the figure must be adjacent to the figure using the ability.

 

With Trick Shot active, do you count spaces from where you draw the line of sight or from the location of Jyn's figure?

If a Trooper "just around the corner" activates, can Jyn activate Quick Draw and Trick Shot to target him?

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Our groups interpretation is that Jyn has to have Line of Site to the target herself before she can use her interrupt. Now we haven't discussed say something is 8 spaces away, she interrupts, then used trick shot to make the range only 5...  Hmm, the possibilities. lol

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Trick Shot

1 Strain: Use before you declare an attack with a Ranged weapon. You can draw line of sight from any space within 3 spaces.

 

Quick Draw

2 Strain: Use at the start of a hostile figure's activation. Interrupt to perform an attack with a Pistol targeting that figure. Limit once per activation.

 

Counting Spaces

If a figure’s ability specifies to choose something within a set number of spaces, players count spaces from the figure using the ability.

Likewise, if an ability specifies to choose an adjacent figure, the figure must be adjacent to the figure using the ability.

 

With Trick Shot active, do you count spaces from where you draw the line of sight or from the location of Jyn's figure?

If a Trooper "just around the corner" activates, can Jyn activate Quick Draw and Trick Shot to target him?

 

No. You can't activate Trick shot when the trooper activates. You can activate quick draw, but do not have LOS. Therefore you can't start an attack, which would trigger trick shot. Basically the triggers are in the wrong order.

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Use before you declare an attack with a Ranged weapon.

 

Interrupt to perform an attack

 

My interpretation is that you don't declare it when you are told by the ability to perform it. Since the target of Quick Draw can't be chosen by you, Jyn just does the attack without you declaring it first.

 

Also, since Quick Draw is an interrupt the RRG states

 

When resolving an interrupt ability, players pause the current action of the game and resolve the interrupting ability.

 

Since there seem to not be any window for you to do anything else than the interrupting ability, this further tilts me into the favor of not allowing Trick Shot before Quick Draw.

Edited by jacenat

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Mmm... and with Pacemaker?

 

Pacemaker

1 Strain: Exhaust this card after a hostile figure resolves an attack targeting you (Step 1). Interrupt to perform an attack targeting that figure.

 

A Trooper has LOS against Jyn, but Jyn doesn't have LOS against the Trooper (unless she activates Trick Shot).

Can Jyn use Peacemaker to interrupt the Trooper when he declares an attack against her, then use Trick Shot to get the LOS?

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Mmm... and with Pacemaker?

 

Pacemaker

1 Strain: Exhaust this card after a hostile figure resolves an attack targeting you (Step 1). Interrupt to perform an attack targeting that figure.

 

A Trooper has LOS against Jyn, but Jyn doesn't have LOS against the Trooper (unless she activates Trick Shot).

Can Jyn use Peacemaker to interrupt the Trooper when he declares an attack against her, then use Trick Shot to get the LOS?

No, according to "Steps of an Attack", RRG, Page 5" you would not be able to perform Step 1: Declare Target, because you don't have LOS to the target.

Declare Target: Based upon its attack type (P or O), the figure performing the attack (referred to as the attacker) declares one eligible target for the attack (referred to as the target).

 

-- For a melee attack (P), an eligible target is any hostile figure adjacent to the attacker. For a ranged attack (O), an eligible target is any hostile figure within line of sight of the attacker.

Edited by Fizz

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Trick Shot

1 Strain: Use before you declare an attack with a Ranged weapon. You can draw line of sight from any space within 3 spaces.

 

Quick Draw

2 Strain: Use at the start of a hostile figure's activation. Interrupt to perform an attack with a Pistol targeting that figure. Limit once per activation.

 

Counting Spaces

If a figure’s ability specifies to choose something within a set number of spaces, players count spaces from the figure using the ability.

Likewise, if an ability specifies to choose an adjacent figure, the figure must be adjacent to the figure using the ability.

 

With Trick Shot active, do you count spaces from where you draw the line of sight or from the location of Jyn's figure?

If a Trooper "just around the corner" activates, can Jyn activate Quick Draw and Trick Shot to target him?

 

No. You can't activate Trick shot when the trooper activates. You can activate quick draw, but do not have LOS. Therefore you can't start an attack, which would trigger trick shot. Basically the triggers are in the wrong order.

 

 

You can't start an attack without LOS even if it's your turn and you are using an action to attack.

But in this situation you CAN use Trick Shot to get the LOS and make the attack.

 

Why an attack initiated by an action can use Trick Shot and an attack initiated by an interrupt condition cannot?

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Why an attack initiated by an action can use Trick Shot and an attack initiated by an interrupt condition cannot?

 

 

I think the argument is that because before you take the action on your activation you have the ability to trigger the "use before you declare a Ranged attack," while during the interrupt you don't have a timing window to trigger this. If the trigger was "while attacking" versus "use before you declare a Ranged attack" then you could use it when you trigger the interrupt, but since you have to use it before attacking and you don't have any ability to trigger it before the attack, you cannot use it. 

 

Your activation is more than just your two actions. It is also the timing window in between when you, or possibly other players, can use abilities and interrupts.  

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Why an attack initiated by an action can use Trick Shot and an attack initiated by an interrupt condition cannot?

 

 

I think the argument is that because before you take the action on your activation you have the ability to trigger the "use before you declare a Ranged attack," while during the interrupt you don't have a timing window to trigger this. If the trigger was "while attacking" versus "use before you declare a Ranged attack" then you could use it when you trigger the interrupt, but since you have to use it before attacking and you don't have any ability to trigger it before the attack, you cannot use it. 

 

Your activation is more than just your two actions. It is also the timing window in between when you, or possibly other players, can use abilities and interrupts.  

 

 

Exactly. Also jacenat's explanation of 'declare' an attack and 'perform' and attack has a lot of bearing as well.

The way I read trick shot is you'd have to be eligible to perform an attack normally for there to be a 'before' If it were meant to be used every time an attack happened its an awkward wording. 

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I asked the FFG Customer Service this question:

 

"Can Jyn's Trick Shot be used when interrupting to perform an attack?"

 

The answer is:

 

"Yes."
 
Justin Kemppainen

Assistant Board Game Manager

Fantasy Flight Games

jkemppainen@fantasyflightgames.com

 

 

all good getting a solid yes from the guy, but can you please elaborate in how the steps work. 

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I would say something like this:

- The condition to interrupt and perform an attack is met (Quick Draw: an opponent figure activates / Peacemaker: an opponent figure declares an attack against you).
- Just before declaring the attack you activate Trick Shot and draw the LOS from 3 spaces away (still counting spaces from your figure). As normal you can only declare an attack against a target (not empty space) in your LOS.
- You resolve the attack.

Edited by LukeZZ

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I think a more accurate question would be:

 

Can Trick Shot be used to declare an attack against a hostile figure that you do not have LOS to?

 

This situation involves that lack of LOS in addition to an interrupt.

this is what i would like answered. can you bounce a blaster bolt off the wall around a corner to a stormtrooper you cannot see that has just activated?

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Well, the first sentence of the ability is "Use at the start of an hostile figure activation". Then it goes about saying to interrupt to perform an attack. From my point of view, the condition to play this ability is the start of an hostile figure activation so yes, Jyn does not need line of sight to use her ablity.

 

With that state of mind, the timing would be as follow :

 

1. Hostile figure activate

2. Jyn declare ability, take 2 strains.

3. It continues as LukeZZ described.

 

 

Edit : Thinking about it, its a bit silly to have Jyn shoot at something she doesn't even see or know is coming but I think the rules, the way they are worded, permit it.

Edited by Mad Malade

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Can Trick Shot be used to declare an attack against a hostile figure that you do not have LOS to?

 

If not, what could be used for?

Even with it, you have to count spaces from Jyn's figure (so it doesn't extend the range of the weapon).

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You're right, my question doesn't really address the point at hand.

 

Trick Shot being used for shooting around corners makes sense, but in this case, we're wondering about the timing of when Quick Draw allows you to draw LOS. 

 

Couldn't Jyn just spend the strain to activate Trick Shot at the beginning of the round, (since that would technically be "before she declares an attack") and then it applies to her next ranged attack? (this opens a whole new can of worms)

Edited by Fizz

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You're right, my question doesn't really address the point at hand.

 

Trick Shot being used for shooting around corners makes sense, but in this case, we're wondering about the timing of when Quick Draw allows you to draw LOS. 

 

Couldn't Jyn just spend the strain to activate Trick Shot at the beginning of the round, (since that would technically be "before she declares an attack") and then it applies to her next ranged attack? (this opens a whole new can of worms)

 

Particularly against things like Mac's ability where he's out of sight. You theoretically could have the extra LOS for all sorts of other abilities that play with LOS. Timing window should be FAQ'd to "When you declare and attack" Would avoid all sorts of nonsense.

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Agree with you on that. I really dont like how the timing window works on this. I can see the argument both ways for Trick Shot + Quick Draw, and that's what I don't like.

 

My gut says that Trick Shot cannot be used to get LOS to perform a Quick Draw.

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Yes, the wording is open to interpretations.

If the text was:
[Trick Shot] 1 Strain: Use when declare an attack with a Ranged weapon. You can draw line of sight from any space within 3 spaces.

Then Trick Shot couldn't be used with Quick Draw or Peacemaker. Both requires to "Interrupt to perform an attack (with a Pistol) targeting that figure."
Trick Shot would "kick in" too late.
I think this text is here to specify that you must use the interrupt attack against the triggering target, and no one else.

Maybe adding this:
[Trick Shot] 1 Strain: Use just before you declare an attack with a Ranged weapon. You can draw line of sight from any space within 3 spaces.

Would be less open to misuse.

 
Edited by LukeZZ

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Yes, the wording is open to interpretations.

If the text was:

[Trick Shot] 1 Strain: Use when declare an attack with a Ranged weapon. You can draw line of sight from any space within 3 spaces.

Then Trick Shot couldn't be used with Quick Draw or Peacemaker. Both requires to "Interrupt to perform an attack (with a Pistol) targeting that figure."

Trick Shot would "kick in" too late.

I think this text is here to specify that you must use the interrupt attack against the triggering target, and no one else.

Maybe adding this:

[Trick Shot] 1 Strain: Use just before you declare an attack with a Ranged weapon. You can draw line of sight from any space within 3 spaces.

Would be less open to misuse.

 

I think what we need in part is a better break down of "declare target" It needs to be expanded to Pick a figure, then check LOS. Right now its all combined. However under current wording changing quickshot to "while attacking" should work. Its window is anytime during an attack, including the 'declare target' step.

 

Timing window is something like

Declare Attack

Declare Target

Roll Dice

Rerolls

Apply Modifiers

Spend Surges

Check accuracy

Calculate damage

Resolve attack

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(Anyway, here it is the answer from FFG Justin Kemppainen)

 

Question:

If a Trooper "just around the corner" (out of LOS) activates, can Jyn activate Quick Draw and Trick Shot (to gain LOS) to attack him?

 

Answer:
Yep! That combination of abilities is legit, and they remain legit even if the target is not currently in line of sight.

Justin Kemppainen
Assistant Board Game Manager
Fantasy Flight Games
jkemppainen@fantasyflightgames.com
 

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