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Trebonius

Yet another x wing fix....

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OK - Like so many others I am trying to find something that favours generic x wings without ruining Tie interceptors or making x wings too good.

 

The idea I have is not perfect - but it can be tweaked to get game balance right.

 

I am proposing that x wings get a new action (probably via a ship card) as follows:-

 

Snapshot

Action: you make a shooting attack, you may not shoot in your shooting phase. Increase the range by one category.

 

 

If you think about the sequencing, this favours low initiative ships. It is not totally without point for a veteran instincts wedge but it is pretty marginal.

 

This capability can be balanced by assigning an appropriate cost - or making you add 2 range categories rather than 1- or by reducing the strength of the attack - or by giving high agility ships extra green dice or by other adjustments that are appropriate.

 

Why I like this idea

 

1. Favours generics

2. Makes high initiative arc dodgers sweat a bit

3. Tie advanced and A wings benefit from auto thrusters

4. It will be a bit tricky (but not impossible) for a generic to modify the die roll.

5. Makes x wings better jousters - and it makes x wings different - sort of special.

 

Why I don't like this idea

1. It breaks the basic game design of an activation phase followed by a combat phase. I know proximity mines do the same - but somehow they are different. It is another bit of fiddling with the rules, reducing the simplicity of the basic game design.

2. Not sure that x wing's star wars background really supports this idea.

 

Anyhow - I suspect the designers have got it all in hand and something better than the idea above will come our way.

 

I do want to start using my x wings again!  :)

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I like the thought.  But it seems more like a pilot ability...like coran horn shooting outside the normal sequence.  I also dig that it would be a great way to mess with phantoms.  I think it is actually pretty likely that we see something like this in the future.

 

For me though...I would rather see the x-wings get a title that helps them out only when they are flying in formation.  Mostly because they look so cool when they are in a pack.  Something like--formation flying:title 2pts.  If you are in range 1 of another x-wing, you may re-roll one dice when defending.  Not too strong, but it gives them a little more durability, and encourages them to fly together...witch is what they want to do anyway as many of the pilot abilities are synergistic.  Not so strong that you would never consider flying a solo X. 

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I had an idea about a action relating to their S-foils. It would involve sacrificing your attack to make another maneuver or something like that. The idea is to imitate the act of closing your S-Foils in the Rogue Squadron games. It could also be given to B-Wings. Altering your wings doesn't make sense as an EPT or a Mod, though, and Pilot ability would limit its distribution to one pilot, naturally.

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   I think that the X-wing is a good example of versatility, and it don't need an upgrade yet, with the transport ship, this ship obtein too good pilots and astromech, that gives it a long live, and the TIE Fighters is still a good cheap fighter that could gives you a good swarm, maybe don't have a good varity of pilots, but the cost compesate this, greettings.

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I had an idea about a action relating to their S-foils. It would involve sacrificing your attack to make another maneuver or something like that. The idea is to imitate the act of closing your S-Foils in the Rogue Squadron games. It could also be given to B-Wings. Altering your wings doesn't make sense as an EPT or a Mod, though, and Pilot ability would limit its distribution to one pilot, naturally.

 

Actually, you could word it like this:

S-foils (X-wing only)

Cost: 1

Effect: During the combat phase, you may choose not to attack. You may immediately perform a (Boost) as a free action.

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I think a fix would be easy via some new well-thought astromechs. The ships which could agree a fix are X-wing, Y-wing and E-wing (maybe except Corran Horn). That are exactly the ships which can take an astromech. So just make some more good astromechs and people will potentially bring the fighters back to the meta.

Edited by IG88E

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I think it would be interesting to give the X-Wing some Upgrade cards that make it a bit of a beast if you are really good at piloting it.

 

A lot of sought-after Actions at the competitive level right now offer ways to mitigate flying errors or otherwise displace your ship after you've locked-in a dial. What about something that gives you extra Action economy of some sort if you make the right dial calls to begin with? That seems like it would be both thematic and healthy for the game. 

Edited by President Jyrgunkarrd

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To be honest I am sure the "FIX" is already been decided and done.  So any speculating or complaining on either side is really useless banter.

 

That assumes that were it not the forums would influence it anyway, which is unlikely.

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To be honest I am sure the "FIX" is already been decided and done.  So any speculating or complaining on either side is really useless banter.

 

That assumes that were it not the forums would influence it anyway, which is unlikely.

The useful part of this conversation is to think about how to make X-Wings work better. A recognition of those shortcomings, and how they can be fixed helps us recognize the strengths and weaknesses of other ships, with the ability to maybe cobble something together out of the parts we already have.

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I think it would be interesting to give the X-Wing some Upgrade cards that make it a bit of a beast if you are really good at piloting it.

 

A lot of sought-after Actions at the competitive level right now offer ways to mitigate flying errors or otherwise displace your ship after you've locked-in a dial. What about something that gives you extra Action economy of some sort if you make the right dial calls to begin with? That seems like it would be both thematic and healthy for the game. 

 

 

This.

 

The X-wing is one of only two small ships right now with no inherent post-dial manouvring options - and the other is the Y-wing which (a) has a turret and (b) is narratively supposed to fly like a concussed yak anyway, so anything which benefits planning rather than manouvre-based actions should work well with it - because you're not wasting points on boost or barrel roll options you aren't using.

 

A talent or modification which supports 'guessing right' would be brilliant....but I'm not sure how that would work...

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I would really like to see the X-wing get a boost or barrel roll action.  

 

How about this though:

 

Rear Deflector Shield - Modification (X-wing only)

1 point

When defending, if the attacking ship is not in your firing arc, you may increase your agility by 1.

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I'm in the b-roll/boost camp. I don't X-wings to be arc-dodgers or w.e, but having a post-manuever action isn't about that unless you're playing interceptors/phantoms etc. Having the option for b-roll/boost just greatly increases the flexibility of your squadron as it allows you scramble your initial deployment and set-up far more easily for future turns. It's also a hell of an effective blocking tool and, on high PS ships, a great way to screw arc-dodgers over :D

 

 

 

To be honest I am sure the "FIX" is already been decided and done.  So any speculating or complaining on either side is really useless banter.

 

That assumes that were it not the forums would influence it anyway, which is unlikely.

 

 

sadly, also these right here. Although there was an interview in which one of the lead designers said they looked at the forums, I highly doubt that the forums would have a significant impact on a product that is planned and tested well in advance. Maybe a tweak here and there?

 

but really, all one can do with one's frustrations/wishes is to hopefully generate some forum discussion, so I wouldn't call it useless. Maybe somewhere down the line, FFG may or may not incorporate an idea. More likely, though, it's just good discourse :)

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Shooting in the activation phase would be way too powerful. Soontir would simply be useless if any Rookie pilot could just point his nose at him and get to shoot him before he moves and before he gets to action. Even if you bumped up the targets agility, it would still be very powerful. Green dice have a habit a falling, especially if you don't even have a focus to modify.

 

The X-wing just kind of needs a slight bump in durability I feel. I've had too many X-wings killed with only two shots because my green dice came up with nothing. I think a cheap astromech that lets you turn a blank into a focus on defense would be good for Rookies and not make Biggs too powerful. That way they could survive a bit more to be able to get in some return fire.

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X-Wings are fine, keep calm and fly slowly. :)

 

you missed the "B" key by about three keys

 

then again, I suppose they are "fine." They're certainly not in the same awful place as Tie Advances were and they can still do work. The problem is that the skew towards higher amounts of dice moves the game further and further away from the X's balanced profile and rigid maneuverability, leaving the reliable B-wing to take over in just about every situation that doesn't involve a PS-10 stressbot.

 

And it's not just that the B-wing is straight better in raw stats, it's also far more flexible. Even at a base level, barrel-roll is just huge for formation flying, and then the B-wing gets to be a flexible bastard on top of that (fire control system, advanced sensors, ion cannon, heavy laser cannon, b/e mod w/ tactician...)

 

Since rebel aces, the B-wing has reached a level of variety, flexibility, and just sheer excellence that I wish the X-wing could be closer to. It's the ideal generic, imo, and so far only the Y-wing has attempted to get closer to that state with the introduction of a new turret and the BTL title.

Edited by ficklegreendice

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I think it would be interesting to give the X-Wing some Upgrade cards that make it a bit of a beast if you are really good at piloting it.

 

A lot of sought-after Actions at the competitive level right now offer ways to mitigate flying errors or otherwise displace your ship after you've locked-in a dial. What about something that gives you extra Action economy of some sort if you make the right dial calls to begin with? That seems like it would be both thematic and healthy for the game. 

 

 

This.

 

The X-wing is one of only two small ships right now with no inherent post-dial manouvring options - and the other is the Y-wing which (a) has a turret and (b) is narratively supposed to fly like a concussed yak anyway, so anything which benefits planning rather than manouvre-based actions should work well with it - because you're not wasting points on boost or barrel roll options you aren't using.

 

A talent or modification which supports 'guessing right' would be brilliant....but I'm not sure how that would work...

 

 

I was thinking something along the lines of 'The Force Is Strong With This One' - X-Wing Exclusive Title, Grants +1 Agility if you take a Focus Action and have not received any damage this turn. So, if you don't bump and don't hit a rock, you can pump your Agility for that turn. 

 

 

Also, 'I've Lost R2!' - X-Wing Exclusive Mod that allows you to discard an Astromech card to force your opponent to re-roll hit results. 

 

 

Unsure of costs. 

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Popular "fix" for the X-wing is to give it some arc dodgy moves. It is debatable if this fits into canonical or thematic overviews of the X-wing.  If you make them behave as an interceptor, you cheapen the interceptor. I propose a different "fix". Let's strengthen the heavy joust image.

 

I won't propose costs.

 

Title: Boom and Zoom Tactics

Whenever this ship completes a 3 speed or greater maneuver, Until the end of the round,increase your primary weapon value by 1.

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Popular "fix" for the X-wing is to give it some arc dodgy moves. It is debatable if this fits into canonical or thematic overviews of the X-wing.  If you make them behave as an interceptor, you cheapen the interceptor. I propose a different "fix". Let's strengthen the heavy joust image.

 

I won't propose costs.

 

Title: Boom and Zoom Tactics

Whenever this ship completes a 3 speed or greater maneuver, Until the end of the round,increase your primary weapon value by 1.

 

I am not sure how people confuse a single post maneuver action for "arc dodging"

 

Barrel-roll or boost have far more applications than just flinging oneself out of arc

 

A barrel-roll or boost is also useful for the following things:

 

1.) scrambling the formation after the initial deployment

2.) (literally) slow rolling

3.) spreading out your squadron's firing arcs

4.) altering the facing of your arc (in the case of boost)

5.) setting up for better maneuvers in the following turn, especially in the face of obstacles or intervening ships

6.) setting up some very key blocks

 

Sure, you can arc-dodge but if you're a B-wing not named Keyan, then you're generally not dodging ****. Normally, you're doing one of the above 6 and contributing far more than your raw stat-line would suggest.

 

The X-wing's lack of post maneuver movement isn't a fluffy thing nor an indication of its role as a "jouster" (a role it preforms poorly), it's just a flaw that stifles its flexibility. It was perhaps needed in the core set days to keep Luke from pulverizing Nightbeast and the Obsidian, but the game has evolved far beyond that.

Edited by ficklegreendice

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As the OP, I wish to thank people for the replies. Summarising, a significant minority think the x wing does not need a fix. Those that do have all got various ideas as to what is needed.

 

A key weakness is perceived to be its inability to manoeuvre after dial movement has been completed (e.g. fickle green dice's comment above).

 

There appears to be a concensus amongst those proposing a fix that just giving the x wing barrel roll/engine boost is unimaginative and probably not within the feel of of what x wings should do. That territory belongs to interceptors and the like and we want x wings to be distinctive in their own way.

 

After that it becomes a mass of various ideas and the view of quite a few that whatever we propose will have no effect - the designers will be unaware or will have their own elegant (we hope) enhancement.

 

 

Sadly there is little support for my idea...and here is me thinking it was wonderful. Jo Jo for example thinks it would make Soontir unusable. I had hoped that I had put in sufficient caveats to make that not the case - Soontir must be viable! So my idea would mean for that by increasing the range by 1 bound and giving ships with 3 agility an extra defense dice we would grant a range 2 Soontir with auto thrusters 5 green dice and an automatic evade without him having to take an action. However I will not add more text defending my proposition to avoid risking a "yes it would, no it wouldn't" ping pong debate!  :)

 

Again thanks for responses which I have read with interest but I now will get back to playing some more games.

(My last game btw ended up with us both having 1 ship each, both with 1 hull point left and me dropping a seismic charge in exactly the right place to destroy my opponent's last ship.....only to realise I had chosen the wrong direction on my manoeuvre dial and sailed off the board!  :D  Great stuff!)

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Would a generic astromech with the ability to repair hull be enough of a bump to durability? Especially if it was cheap? Maybe have it be a one shot so it isn't over powered.

Or better yet a title or mod that does the same thing IF you equip an astromech!

Edited by All Shields Forward

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Would a generic astromech with the ability to repair hull be enough of a bump to durability? Especially if it was cheap? Maybe have it be a one shot so it isn't over powered.

Or better yet a title or mod that does the same thing IF you equip an astromech!

I really like that idea! How's this for a rough example:

Modification: Astromech Calibration

(Rebel Only)

If this ship is to be destroyed, you may discard your (Astromech) upgrade to remove all but two damage cards.

I won't pretend to know how much this should cost.

There's room for improvement, sure, but I like the basic idea. Especially since it also reminds me of the Rogue Squadron games.

[Edit] Messed up the quote... coding? Syntax? Anyway I've tried to fix it. Hopefully it worked. Posting on my phone is not optimal.

Edited by amicusnintendi

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Modification - Action - shields to double front

cost - ???

 

Choose either shooting Arc or Non arc then add 1 Agility and discard the first hit against any attack originating in that arc but decrease agility by 1 and take an extra hit if the attack originates outside of the decleared arc

Edited by slasher956

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Modification - Action - shields to double front

cost - ???

 

Choose either shooting Arc or Non arc then add 1 Agility and discard the first hit against any attack originating in that arc but decrease agility by 1 and take an extra hit if the attack originates outside of the decleared arc

 

more easily implemented as "when defending against an attack from an enemy, if that enemy is in your firing arc, add one [evade] to your roll"

 

would not make for a bad astro either, though it'd probably be better as "you may take a free evade action" so as not to make corran horn that much better than he already is or maybe just have it reproduce auto-thrusters blank --> evade with the "in arc" targeting condition

 

would make for a hell of a jouster

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Modification - Action - shields to double front

cost - ???

 

Choose either shooting Arc or Non arc then add 1 Agility and discard the first hit against any attack originating in that arc but decrease agility by 1 and take an extra hit if the attack originates outside of the decleared arc

 

more easily implemented as "when defending against an attack from an enemy, if that enemy is in your firing arc, add one [evade] to your roll"

 

would not make for a bad astro either, though it'd probably be better as "you may take a free evade action" so as not to make corran horn that much better than he already is or maybe just have it reproduce auto-thrusters blank --> evade with the "in arc" targeting condition

 

would make for a hell of a jouster

 

But does it solve the problem of how easy it is to get OUT of an X-wing's arc?  I love the idea of beefing up an X-wings defenses when when being shot at by something out of its own arc.  This will force your opponents to joust with the X-wing, which is what the X-wing wants.

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