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Joe Boss Red Seven

Uh-Oh... nobody is buying StarVipers!

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The X-wing and the Starviper dial are not very different.  First, most do not believe the the white K-turn on the Defender is worth the points.  I'm not sure I'm willing to buy into a red S-turn.  (Maybe if it ALSO had a K turn as well, but the StarvIper does not.)  Let's look a the greens.  Other than a green 3, the X-wing and the Starviper have the same green moves.  The X-wing has a 3 turn and the Starviper has a 1 turn.  This is a wash.  Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

 

Comparing the X-wing with the the Starviper IS NOT apples and oranges, and here's why:   You are not forced to pick a faction to fly in this game.  You may choose the one that you feel gives your the best shot at winning.  That being said.  If you could only fly X-wings or Starvipers, which would you choose?  At 25 points, I can buy Biggs or Hobbie.   I could also pick up a Rookie, Tarn, or a Red pilot with upgrades.  Where the Starviper shines is what it does when mixed in with other ships.

 

It would be a bit easier to argue that the Starviper is on even ground with the X-wing if it sat at 23 points.  This would give it two points for Autothruster or a Fletchette torpedo. 

 

I don't think the 1 turn and 3 turn are a wash. The 1 turn is way more useful on a ship with a fixed firing arc.

 

 

And when you're up close to an asteroid or another ship, you're going to miss that 3 turn.  So... wash.  It's a mater of how you fly the ship and keeping to its strengths.

 

If you really do consider that the X-Wing dial is on par with the Starviper then I'm not sure there is a point arguing with you. It is your opinion after all.

 

I do consider the 1 hard much more valuable than the hard 3. I've played with the Starviper only twice yet, but already I can see that the S-Loop is GREAT, at least for me. So, with whatever ship, if you gave me the choice between a hard 1 and a hard 3, I would always pick the 1, if you gave me the choice between a 4 k-turn and a S-Loop, I would always pick the S-Loop. Sure, there is situations where I would miss the hard 3 or straight k-turn, but overall, the benefit I pull from the hard 1 and S-Loop far outweight what I would miss from the others. It is only my opinion, and why I do consider the Starviper dial more valuable than the X-Wing.

 

Now, to compare both ship again: Starviper Vs X-Wing, what do you get or lose when picking a Starviper over an X-Wing.

 

Loss:

-Astromech slot

 

Gain:

-1 Agility

-Barrel Roll

-Boost

 

Trade (value of the trade is up to player preference)

-1 Shield for 1 Hull

-Dials

 

Unless you expect to face a lot of critical hit, I personally consider this trade trivial in favor of the X-Wing. A shield is better sure, but will it really be used to cancel a crit every time? In the end, they both have 5 health. So, if we keep the dial out of the equation, we are left with the Astromech slot Vs 1 agility, Boost and Barrel Roll. I don't know about you, but if there was to be a 4 points astromech that gave all those 3 benefits, I'm pretty sure a LOT of player would always take it. And just to add a little more value to the Boost action, remember that having it is the only way to have access to Autothruster.

 

It is in the end your opinion that the Starviper is not worth much more than a X-Wing and there is no point to try to change your mind, but I personnally believe that the craft is worth the 4 more points over the X-Wing. Seeing that you don't seems to give much value to the hard 1, boost and barrel roll action, it might just be that you prefer resiliant ship over maneuvrable one. For my part, I prefer maneuvrable one; barrel rolling out of sight can save you from many hits.

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It would be a different story if the dial had more green in it. A more maneuverable Xwing would have been amazing... And maybe a bit broken.

 

If all you want is more green then just take a R2 astromech on your X-Wing and you have it, all your 1 and 2 maneuver is now green.

 

Thing is, unless you expect to get stressed a lot, green maneuvers are not that useful. The transition from red to white has much more impact than white to green. Since we are talking about generics that can't take EPT, we can already exclude the usefulness of green maneuvers combined with EPTs (PtL, Opportunist, Stay on target, etc), so we're left with clearing stress after a red maneuver (K-turn or S-Loop) or exterior factors (flechette torpedo, R3-A2, Tactician, etc). It would have have been good to have more greens, but I can live with what it has. Might be that I'm already used to flying Defender with only straight greens, so 3 straight and 1 bank doesn't seem that bad. From a designer point, I think it was a good idea to limit the number of green on the Starviper dial. Give it more green and everybody would just take PtL on it, like we currently see with the Interceptor.

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It is pretty dang ugly but it's more the $5 price tag which is a double whammy. If they kept it at $15 msrp and made it smaller, like B-wing size, it'd fly off the shelves. Otherwise imagine how well the e-wing would sell if it were $20.

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It is so dang pretty but it's more the $5 price tag which is a double whammy. If they kept it at $15 msrp and made it smaller, like B-wing size, it'd fly off the shelves. Otherwise imagine how well the e-wing would sell if it were $20.

 

fixed

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I will say I think I will equip shield upgrade instead of autothrusters on Star vipers. Going from 1 to 2 shields is a big boost for only 4 points.

At Range 3 Autothrusters, due to repeatability, would be better than SU even if AT were 4pts.

 

At closer ranges, thanks to boost and barrel roll, the ship should be capable of arc-dodging turreted and non-turreted ships. In the former case, AT is still repeatable, and still worth more than SU. In the latter case, SU is 4pts sitting idly by as opposed to 2pts for AT.

 

I don't think SU is the better option.

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I personally think that the difference in price is a factor here. The actual contents of the package is nothing more drastic than any other ship out there but it has a 30% markup. With regards to plastic I dont think theres that much more in terms of cost than say a B-wing and if the plastic was a factor then the M3-A and the A-Wing should be slightly cheaper than all the other ships.

With those extra large token board's I expected a little more than a bunch of ion tokens spaced out.

The other point to refer to are the TIE Fighters and TIE Interceptors, due to the lack of upgrade slots and extra space on the cardboard they come with six pilots instead of four to make the value of the expansion more comparable to the other expansions.

So basically your talking about the same contents as a B-Wing expansion but you're paying more because they chose to make the packaging bigger. I say chose because I think they could have not put it at an angle and it would have fit into a package almost the same size as the rest of the ships.

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If they mess with scale the pendants will lose their minds, it's a big ship that needs a bigger blister pack so it's a bit more expensive, I don't think you understand how that small difference means setting up a separate machine to produce it in a smaller run which ironically costs quite a bit more.

Mass production is cheaper than limited runs and that's what the starviper is, starviper blisters are only used on one ship.

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I haven't brought a viper yet because I only intend to buy what i use. This leaves me heavily disadvantaged in card selection, but it's Been an ethic that works since I buy for ships, not cards.

Currently undecided on viper, as my need from that stem on whether I want a small, elite fighter. I have ig2000 and slave one that compete for that role (both are very imposing fight style gunships) so I am holiding off as of the moment. I eventually intend on using my z95 and hawk/yo more proavticelt, so I will see how I feel

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I personally think that the difference in price is a factor here. The actual contents of the package is nothing more drastic than any other ship out there but it has a 30% markup. With regards to plastic I dont think theres that much more in terms of cost than say a B-wing and if the plastic was a factor then the M3-A and the A-Wing should be slightly cheaper than all the other ships.

With those extra large token board's I expected a little more than a bunch of ion tokens spaced out.

The other point to refer to are the TIE Fighters and TIE Interceptors, due to the lack of upgrade slots and extra space on the cardboard they come with six pilots instead of four to make the value of the expansion more comparable to the other expansions.

So basically your talking about the same contents as a B-Wing expansion but you're paying more because they chose to make the packaging bigger. I say chose because I think they could have not put it at an angle and it would have fit into a package almost the same size as the rest of the ships.

 

Don't forget that there is 9 upgrade cards coming with the Starviper instead of the usual 5, so there is more content.

 

I think that if it would have been beneficial to sell the Starviper the same price as the other small bases, FFG would have do it but put only one Autothrusters per pack instead of the current 2. They would have probably sell more since a lot of people are buying the Starviper just for that upgrade. FFG is in the buiness to make money (as they should), but there was a nice gesture here by including two of the most valued upgrade card of the Wave, they could have easily put just 1 in the pack.

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I personally think that the difference in price is a factor here. The actual contents of the package is nothing more drastic than any other ship out there but it has a 30% markup. With regards to plastic I dont think theres that much more in terms of cost than say a B-wing and if the plastic was a factor then the M3-A and the A-Wing should be slightly cheaper than all the other ships.

With those extra large token board's I expected a little more than a bunch of ion tokens spaced out.

The other point to refer to are the TIE Fighters and TIE Interceptors, due to the lack of upgrade slots and extra space on the cardboard they come with six pilots instead of four to make the value of the expansion more comparable to the other expansions.

So basically your talking about the same contents as a B-Wing expansion but you're paying more because they chose to make the packaging bigger. I say chose because I think they could have not put it at an angle and it would have fit into a package almost the same size as the rest of the ships.

 

Don't forget that there is 9 upgrade cards coming with the Starviper instead of the usual 5, so there is more content.

 

I think that if it would have been beneficial to sell the Starviper the same price as the other small bases, FFG would have do it but put only one Autothrusters per pack instead of the current 2. They would have probably sell more since a lot of people are buying the Starviper just for that upgrade. FFG is in the buiness to make money (as they should), but there was a nice gesture here by including two of the most valued upgrade card of the Wave, they could have easily put just 1 in the pack.

 

You're right way too many upgrade cards have been a one shot available in one pack only, mercenary co-pilot, autoblaster etc. 

Still though as I say the ship itself doesnt seem to be that much more plastic than the B-wing or Defender, (I dont have a scale to be able to weigh them right now) and really the only difference in content is 4 Small upgrade cards which hardly justifies the price difference. 

I get that their out to make money, just that this expansion seems to be a departure from the model they've employed up till now.

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The ship is too large to fit in a regular pack, They had to make a new size just for it. I do believe that it factors in the price. Probably not worth the 5 dollars more, but from a buisness perspective, it should be taken into account nonetheless.

 

I think the reason it sells less is only because most people can't justify fielding more than 2 in a list. Price never been an issue in this game, just look at all the 3PO everywhere and remember that this card is worth 89.95$. 

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Yeh I get your meaning, my argument is more for the casual player who hasn't been following the marketing cycle. They go to their store one day and see new ships, and maybe pick one up, maybe another next month etc.

Looking at the Wave as a whole the M3-A is the only normal price ship to these casual players, the StarViper comes at a premium and the IG-2000 and Most Wanted are big box items.

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It would be a different story if the dial had more green in it. A more maneuverable Xwing would have been amazing... And maybe a bit broken.

 

If all you want is more green then just take a R2 astromech on your X-Wing and you have it, all your 1 and 2 maneuver is now green.

 

Thing is, unless you expect to get stressed a lot, green maneuvers are not that useful. The transition from red to white has much more impact than white to green. Since we are talking about generics that can't take EPT, we can already exclude the usefulness of green maneuvers combined with EPTs (PtL, Opportunist, Stay on target, etc), so we're left with clearing stress after a red maneuver (K-turn or S-Loop) or exterior factors (flechette torpedo, R3-A2, Tactician, etc). It would have have been good to have more greens, but I can live with what it has. Might be that I'm already used to flying Defender with only straight greens, so 3 straight and 1 bank doesn't seem that bad. From a designer point, I think it was a good idea to limit the number of green on the Starviper dial. Give it more green and everybody would just take PtL on it, like we currently see with the Interceptor.

 

And I agree with just about everything you stated here.  To put more greens on this ship would turn it into a tanky Interceptor, which would not be true to this ship.  This is a Tie Fighter that has been bulked up to an X-wing.  It gives up the aid of an astromech for greater mobility.

 

I too love Defenders (and fitting two into a build is tough) and am currently trying to build a competitive 2 Starviper build.

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Well, that's my two StarVipers arrived.  Ooooohyeahbaby

 

 

Why does no one like the way it looks?  I think it is the best looking ship in the game right now.

 

Some people are just resistant to change/and or NEW THINGS (even if those new things are actually 20 odd years old).

 

I'm already loving some of the StarViper conversions in the modelling subforum.

Edited by FTS Gecko

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Why does no one like the way it looks?

Because beauty (or lack thereof) is in the eye of the beholder.

 

Has nothing to do with it being new, or a change. I don't think it looks like a space superiority fighter, it looks like a deranged moth that was beaten with a stick.

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