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ted1138

Draw their fire and Prince Xisor rules.

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Hi, I'm rather confused over when the DTF rule and also Prince Xisor's ability takes effect?  In a hypothetical situation, a ship is facing three attack dice, one is a hit symbol, another a crit symbol and the third is a blank. Defender rolls three dice, two blanks and an evade symbol, canceling the hit but leaving the crit.  Do you move the dice result to another ship in step 6(1st ship is un-hit, 2nd ship is hit plus suffers damage), or do you instead assign the damage card to the other ship in step 7(first ship is hit but takes no damage, 2nd ship just takes damage, no hit)?

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In the case you mentioned, the first ship is "hit" - but it suffers no damage as that damage is passed to the other ship.

 

The second ship resolves the damage normally - i.e resolves it as it would a normal "hit" dice result or a "crit" dice result (so if you have shields, it just loses a shield) - but that ship is not considered to be "hit" - it just suffers damage.

 

Remember that there is a distinction between being hit, and suffering damage - you can suffer damage without being hit (i.e asteroid damage) and you can be hit without suffering damage (i.e Lt Blount)

Useful to know when equipping things like Stealth Devices

 

You're probably still confused lol

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So you are still hit even if you don't have any uncanceled hit/crits on your ship at the end of step 6? Would you still be hit if you use an evade token to negate the last hit/crit? 

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So you are still hit even if you don't have any uncanceled hit/crits on your ship at the end of step 6?

Depends on. If you're being shot by Lt. Blount then yes, because he always hits. But for every other case, no you are not considered hit.

But for Draw Their Fire, you don't move any <hit> or <crit> results to another ship until step 7

 

 

Would you still be hit if you use an evade token to negate the last hit/crit?

Generally speaking no.

Edited by VanorDM

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So you are still hit even if you don't have any uncanceled hit/crits on your ship at the end of step 6? Would you still be hit if you use an evade token to negate the last hit/crit? 

 

The definition of "hit" is on page 12 of the rulebook, under compare results. It basically says that the attack hits if there are uncancelled attack dice after the defender has rolled and modified his dice and used any tokens and whatnot. Where those uncancelled dice are assigned is irrelevant to determining whether the attack hit. If there are uncancelled dice then the attack hit the defender. Period, full stop. Likewise, effects like Draw their Fire change where the damage goes, but don't change who the defender of the attack is, so if their are special effects (like ion or loosing stealth devices) that effect the defender if the attack hits, then those effects trigger and do their thing to the defender, even if all the damage of the attack was siphoned off to other smucks.

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Just to add a little more confusion to this topic, this question has been buzzing around our lacal boards this morning, if Xizor is hit by an Ion turret/cannon when do each of the effects take place?

9

In my mind the ion t/c hits (say with a single result) this is determined in step 6, the ion t/c then deals one damage and one ion token before canceling all dice results (as per the final paragraph of section 6) then in section 7 since there are no more uncanceled hits (because the ion t/c canceled tthem all) Xizor has no opportunity to trigger since his damage was suffered out of sequence due to the ion effect.

8

Am I correcct? The timing seems right, but be nice for some official confermation.

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if Xizor is hit by an Ion turret/cannon when do each of the effects take place?

Any time you're hit, you're hit. The Ion effect only cares about a Hit. So if there are uncanceled <hit> or <crit> results in Step 6, then you are Hit, and what you do with those results at that point doesn't change anything.

You get the damage and ion token.

Now in theory you could move one of those results to another ship. But then all you're doing is doing damage to another ship and gaining nothing for it. There's nothing that covers Ion and DtF or Xizor though.

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I wanna see a situation where Xizor is being hit with an Ion weapon and he chooses to pass a damage off to a nearby Z-95 at 1 health. The Z explodes, but per the Ion weapon Xizor still takes a damage and gets an Ion token. So why did he do it? Because there's an enemy Phantom within range 1 of the Z who happened to have an illegal stash of thermal detinators - Deadman's Switch - on board. The Z dies, Xizor takes 2 damage and an Ion token... but the Phanom dies, too!

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I'm still not convinced that the damage from the attack can be moved (regardless of how pointless it would be) since all dice results are canceled leaving nothing to be suffered by a friendly ship in step 7

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I'm still not convinced that the damage from the attack can be moved

I don't think there's ever been strong evidence that you could, only in theory. I don't think FFG is going to FAQ it any time soon, so it's still an open question. Although with Deadman's switch there is finally a reason why you may want to have another ship suffer damage.

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I'm still not convinced that the damage from the attack can be moved (regardless of how pointless it would be) since all dice results are canceled leaving nothing to be suffered by a friendly ship in step 7

Basically, the question is whether the "suffer this damage" resolves as part of the DtF effect, or if DtF sets up something that happens later.  There's not really good guidance either way.

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It seems to me people are paraphrasing the rules and interpreting the meaning of words like "suffer" and "result" to mean whatever works best for them. I'll wait for the faq on this, thanks...

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It seems to me people are paraphrasing the rules and interpreting the meaning of words like "suffer" and "result" to mean whatever works best for them.

No, both are well defined terms and no one is interpreting either one.

An Ion Cannon or Turret both require that the defender be Hit. You determine if a ship is Hit or not in step 6 Compare Results, and no other place.

At that point, what happens to the uncanceled <hit> and <crit> results doesn't really matter. The defender will suffer 1 damage and receive 1 ion token. You can't have an uncanceled <hit> or <crit> until step 6, until that point they are results in the dice pool.

So the answer to your question... No DtF or Xizor can not stop the defender from suffering 1 damage and be given 1 ion token.

There is some debate over if the Ion effect kicks in before or after the Ion Cannon/Turret cancel all dice or not. Which one of those going first would decide if you can use DtF or Xizor to move damage or not.

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There is some debate over if the Ion effect kicks in before or after the Ion Cannon/Turret cancel all dice or not. Which one of those going first would decide if you can use DtF or Xizor to move damage or not.

 

That entire discussuion assumes that the defender has initative, i.e. DTF/Xizor resolves first and ion second.

The two sides of the discussion are:

1) DTF/Xizor cause damage while resolving that ability.

2) DTF/Xizor move the die result and ion cancels it before step 7 (deal damage) resolves.

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That entire discussuion assumes that the defender has initative

Honestly the whole discussion is academic, because until dead man's switch, there's never a reason why you'd want to move damage to another ship, because doing so wouldn't save the defender in the first place.

But now, in theory you could want that so you could finish off a ship while it's surrounded and can make the best use of the dead man's switch. It's still a fairly rare case though.

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It was possible before to construct a situation where you would want to damage your own ship, even if you were still taking additional damage from doing so. It was just so unbelievably unlikely to actually happen that it was never an issue before.

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It seems to me people are paraphrasing the rules and interpreting the meaning of words like "suffer" and "result" to mean whatever works best for them.

No, both are well defined terms and no one is interpreting either one.

An Ion Cannon or Turret both require that the defender be Hit. You determine if a ship is Hit or not in step 6 Compare Results, and no other place.

At that point, what happens to the uncanceled <hit> and <crit> results doesn't really matter. The defender will suffer 1 damage and receive 1 ion token. You can't have an uncanceled <hit> or <crit> until step 6, until that point they are results in the dice pool.

So the answer to your question... No DtF or Xizor can not stop the defender from suffering 1 damage and be given 1 ion token.

There is some debate over if the Ion effect kicks in before or after the Ion Cannon/Turret cancel all dice or not. Which one of those going first would decide if you can use DtF or Xizor to move damage or not.

 

This was my point exactly, just to add to this tho, Suffering damage happens in step 7 based on uncancelled die results, since the ion cannon cancels all dice after dealing the defender its one damage and ion token, the are no uncanceled results for Xizor or draw theirfire to "move". Initiative has nothing to do with it as the abilities of each card trigger in different steps.

 

But yes an FAQ ruling is required since DMS is here now.

Edited by CowboyJesus

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