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MuttonchopMac

Career books are beyond me...

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The Force and Destiny core rules seem to cover everything I like and want for Jedi in Star Wars. The careers, specializations, and Force Powers cover everything, in my mind, which makes me really wonder about the inevitable career books... What will be inside?

 

-Obviously, Signature Abilities will be a thing. I don't mind. In fact, I hope Vaapad ends up as a Signature Ability instead of a specialization...

 

-Three new specializations seems almost ridiculous to me. The core rules cover pretty much everything. Some people think Light / Dark stuff, but I highly doubt that. Do you think FFG would do Force Tradition talent trees? Warrior gets Jensaarai, Seeker gets Dathomiri Witch, etc... I don't think I like that idea, but I can't imagine three new unique specializations for each career. Not like I can in EotE or AoR.

 

-Force Powers. Again, I feel like the core rules are very broad in their descriptions. What could they possibly add in that is a full tree? I was giddy when I learned that they didn't make a million variants of a damaging Dark Side Force Power like Saga Edition. Harm and Unleash cover everything from choking people to lightning to screaming to more obscure things like Jedi Knight I's Force Destruction and Deadly Sight. Crucitorn (be really tough) ties into Enhance, with the upgrade for Resilience checks. Absorbing blaster bolts can be spun as Protect. Fear? How can you make a full tree out of filling someone with Fear? Make plants grow fast? Again, a full tree seems out because it's too specific. There are lots of little things like shutting down droids, inspiring allies, cutting someone off from the Force, etc, but they're not broad enough.

 

So long story short, is it just me, or are future career books just mystifying?

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My hope is they break the current pattern and offer time period, regional, or organizational books instead of focusing on careers. maybe instead of three new specs for a career, one new spec for each of three careers. There could be a Jedi book with an extra "Padawan" spec for Guardian, Consular, and Sentinel; Force Adept book with specs for Mystic, etc...

Otherwise I agree, they seem fairly complete already.

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I have to admit, I thought about this as well...

Specialisations seem pretty broad as a whole and I can imagine a lot of possibilities there but even then some of the specs seemed a bit far fetched already (Big Game Hunter and Driver still don't seem like typical Explorer specs to me, I like them don't get me wrong.) However, for these Jedi careers it seems a stretch that 3 more specs could be easily found for the careers. Then again, I might not have the in-depth knowledge needed when it comes to Jedi.

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This is probably a bad idea, but what about expanding the current Force Powers slightly? The ones that don't have a Mastery upgrade, like Move, Enhance, Influence, Sense, and Foresee could have say, another column or another row.

 

That or an even worse idea: Force powers with littler trees and more specialized applications. I seriously hope not.

 

My hope is they break the current pattern and offer time period, regional, or organizational books instead of focusing on careers. maybe instead of three new specs for a career, one new spec for each of three careers. There could be a Jedi book with an extra "Padawan" spec for Guardian, Consular, and Sentinel; Force Adept book with specs for Mystic, etc...

Otherwise I agree, they seem fairly complete already.

 

Force Adept could be interesting.... If they kept the Saga vibe, it could borrow Imbue from Artisan, but with a more mystical feel, instead of a Force techie feel.

 

I don't know about Padawan specializations. Guardian, Consular, and Sentinel are already careers, and having a "Padawan" specialization would be like having a Bounty Hunter Sidekick specialization... It doesn't feel different enough from the thing itself. Of course, here I'm shooting down ideas when I myself have none.

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This is probably a bad idea, but what about expanding the current Force Powers slightly? The ones that don't have a Mastery upgrade, like Move, Enhance, Influence, Sense, and Foresee could have say, another column or another row.

 

That or an even worse idea: Force powers with littler trees and more specialized applications. I seriously hope not.

 

Yeah, I don't think the Force powers need yet more buffing.  Except for Move, which I think is both vague and overpowered, I think they really nailed them already.  There are a few things that aren't really covered yet, like using the Force in a group effort, benefits of meditation, sorcery rituals, etc that could still be covered, but that's only material for a single book.

 

I don't know about Padawan specializations. Guardian, Consular, and Sentinel are already careers, and having a "Padawan" specialization would be like having a Bounty Hunter Sidekick specialization... It doesn't feel different enough from the thing itself. Of course, here I'm shooting down ideas when I myself have none.

 

 

Well, I just mean a more generalist spec, suitable for Knight level play, that suggests a more well-rounded education than what those careers currently provide (which I find too specific).  But this has been a contentious point in the past, so I won't belabour it.

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This is probably a bad idea, but what about expanding the current Force Powers slightly? The ones that don't have a Mastery upgrade, like Move, Enhance, Influence, Sense, and Foresee could have say, another column or another row.

 

That or an even worse idea: Force powers with littler trees and more specialized applications. I seriously hope not.

 

Yeah, I don't think the Force powers need yet more buffing.  Except for Move, which I think is both vague and overpowered, I think they really nailed them already.  There are a few things that aren't really covered yet, like using the Force in a group effort, benefits of meditation, sorcery rituals, etc that could still be covered, but that's only material for a single book.

 

I don't know about Padawan specializations. Guardian, Consular, and Sentinel are already careers, and having a "Padawan" specialization would be like having a Bounty Hunter Sidekick specialization... It doesn't feel different enough from the thing itself. Of course, here I'm shooting down ideas when I myself have none.

 

 

Well, I just mean a more generalist spec, suitable for Knight level play, that suggests a more well-rounded education than what those careers currently provide (which I find too specific).  But this has been a contentious point in the past, so I won't belabour it.

 

 

Yeah, the Force powers are a dead end in my mind. More obscure abilities scream Talent, rather than Power.

 

Also, I've been a strong opponent to the idea of a generic Padawan specialization, but that Age of Rebellion Recruit specialization keeps me wondering if you're not onto something...

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Do I have any idea where I would go if I was writing these career books? No idea - but then that's why I'm not a professional writer making the big bucks at FFG. I'm sure they have a handle on what's coming out and are chocked full of cool ideas to fill up their page counts.

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I can see career sourcebooks in so far as giving 12 new signature abilities and at least 1 more Lightsaber talent tree(in career) to each career(some talent trees seem lacking in reflect/parry and or strain recovery), plus the 15-18 new species you would likely get, plus a scattered amount of Light/Dark side related artifacts, crystals and tech.  

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Do I have any idea where I would go if I was writing these career books? No idea - but then that's why I'm not a professional writer making the big bucks at FFG. I'm sure they have a handle on what's coming out and are chocked full of cool ideas to fill up their page counts.

Oh, I am sure they'll come up with something cool as well. However I couldn't think up 1 additional spec... Yet it only took us 7 posts to predict all 3 new specs in the colonist splat. And predictions are cool to make!

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I would like to see: 1 alternate combat style, one "dark" spec, and one other spec for each book.

 

For the Mystic: they already have a politically savy spec, a double FD spec, and a duelist saber style.

 

I already came up with a "equilibrium" style gunslinger force user back on the beta page- I should probably revisit it now that the actually gunslinger spec is out.

 

Alchemist is a spec with several talents that generate conflict when used, but works like the Rigger in that you give real bonuses to other combatants just by having talents.

 

Shaman is a double Force Die spec that is more in line with the Pathfinder and Hunter, or the Ace Beastrider- a primitive force user

 

Guardian should get Jensarii spec, (from the I, Jedi book) that is focused on armor use. You might call a "sith guardian" an Inquisitor, though I'm not sure what to put in it. The third spec should be something completely different- perhaps a mounted (bike/beast) saber style? includes protecting your mount in combat?

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I would like to see: 1 alternate combat style, one "dark" spec, and one other spec for each book.

 

For the Mystic: they already have a politically savy spec, a double FD spec, and a duelist saber style.

 

I already came up with a "equilibrium" style gunslinger force user back on the beta page- I should probably revisit it now that the actually gunslinger spec is out.

 

You should look up Gray Paladins... They were a thing in the Coruscant Night trilogy. Basically Jedi Gunslingers. They shot oncoming blasterfire out of the air with their own guns.

 

Generic versions of armour wearing force users, force martial artists, sorcerers, and more. There are more "jedi" specscthat were passed over as well. Still lots that can be done. Including more specs with dark leanings like the agressor.

 

Most of which would be like generic forms of the various Force Traditions. I could see that.

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Well I'm imagining Dathomir witches and maybe some sort of force-sensitive pilot. Anakin would qualify as an archetype for the latter. Maybe something for the Dagoyan Masters (hopelessly misspelled, I'm sure) although maybe that could be covered by the existing specializations...? I'm uncertain as I don't have the book and am going off a lot of second-hand information until it is released, but those are things that occur to me.

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I suspect that FFG will come up with something.

 

Besides, I'd be very surprised if the career sourcebooks for EotE weren't their biggest sellers outside the core rulebooks.  And since FFG is a "for profit" company, they're going to publish material that they know will sell rather than sit on the shelf collecting dust.

 

After all, FFG was able to cook up the Gambler, Charmer, and Gunslinger for Fly Casual (Smuggler book) when there was already the Scoundrel that could cover those bases fairly well by being a blend of social and combat traits.

 

So it's quite possible that we'll see "variations on a theme" in Force and Destiny career sourcebooks.  Just because Warrior has the Starfighter Ace doesn't mean would couldn't see a new piloting-based spec for Seeker (which already gets both Piloting skills as career skills) or even Sentinel.  And we could very well see "leader-type" specs for careers outside of Consular and Mystic.

Edited by Donovan Morningfire

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Personally, I want to keep the options of the force to a minimum. I think the core rulebook covers all I will ever need to have the presence of the force in my campaign.. More force options beyond that will just make things convoluted, in my mind. On that note I will be picking up most books for Edge of the Empire and Age of Rebellion.

Love this game.

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I don't think they're going to significantly deviate from the idea of career books expanding the core specialization offerings. I also doubt they're going to pin traditions within a single career (Jensaarai Defenders could easily be represented by several trees. How would they reconcile that as a specific specialization in eras before they existed?).

Yes, I'm aware they are just looking at their canon period during the movies. So far they have seemed to put out things that could easily be expanded beyond that, even if they aren't specifically building for that.

 

That said, I would like to see them put effort into fleshing out some of said traditions. The flavor of the Zeison Sha has always seemed really neat, to me; details are incredibly scarce, and I hesitate to make up my own from fear of contradiction. I'd thought that was done with when they binned the EU stuff, but FFG gives me some hope in a post-canon world. Mayhap their location books will each include either an existing, or a brand new, force-using tradition with all the bells and whistles.

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I'm going to sound like a dissident voice...

 

I think there is a lot of room for Force using spec's/force power trees without generating an out-of-this-world power creep/redundancy.

 

1) Reason being that the system already handles exponential XP cost of taking more specs (which balances linar XP gains with diminishing returns on additional features), and people can already go crazy with the choice (I can't count the number of warrior/gun spec's, yet predict more are still coming /pokes-at-bounty-hunter).

 

2) What is interesting with diversity, is that you will see less cookie cutter clone/identical characters. I has already started in our game, where you only have so many options for, say, a Charisma-based force user, and if you end up doing it, well Consular / Mystic. It's nice to have options when re-rolling characters, and it avoids stepping on other player's toes. There's also this weird feeling that you miss out on getting your Force rating when going outside of the "Force family of spec's" that I've seen my PC force users tend to have. Everybody ends up picking everyone else's Force spec after a while (around 600+ acquired XP), which leads to a weird tendency that, as time passes, Force users become more and more the same. Having more diversity would alleviate that without increasing the power level at all (assuming people are already bee-lining for higher Force ratings, and XP being the same).

 

3) For Force powers, it's easy to add Control upgrades that add new features to existing powers without increasing the potency of the base power at all. This is an option I'd very much like to see expanded on. Stuff like slowing down your fall, a mild form of levitation, which is basically like the Savior Anti-Grav Chute, added to either Move or Enhance. Some features might even help manage power level expectations by more clearly defining features that people thought powers already possessed, like bending metal beams for Move added as a Mastery Upgrade, with clearly laid out costs for doing so.

 

4) This last one might be more controversial, but a lot of the Dark Side stuff could be handled by adding more symmetrical [Light]/[Dark] upgrades to existing trees, and could go deeper into Conflict-increasing mechanics, or even further... There are some wicked evil powers out there.

 

5) Also, Dathomiri Magick in general could potentially be expanded on... It's canon after all.

Edited by BarbeChenue

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5) Also, Dathomiri Magick in general could potentially be expanded on... It's canon after all.

 

I avoided anything animated and Star Wars like the plague and still do, so unless they added some weird stuff in The Clone Wars, the only thing special is that they sing and tame rancors. One of which is a narrative thing and the other is already in the rules.

 

I know there was at least one Dathomiri Witch in TCW, but I ignored it since the old canon was that none had left Dathomir because they were shipwrecked on a virtually unknown world. They weren't really a thing in a galaxy until the heroes of Yavin arrived in The Courtship of Princess Leia... Did George Lucas give them weird new powers?

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Yep, potions and transmutation and undead revival...much improved over the (terrible) comics.

 

I avoided anything animated and Star Wars like the plague and still do, so unless they added some weird stuff in The Clone Wars...

 

 

To each their own, of course, but if you've avoided TCW you're missing out on a lot.  I'm not saying all episodes are great, but even just watching for the world-building alone is worth it.  TCW has a depth not even the movies can match.

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Yep, potions and transmutation and undead revival...much improved over the (terrible) comics.

 

I avoided anything animated and Star Wars like the plague and still do, so unless they added some weird stuff in The Clone Wars...

 

 

To each their own, of course, but if you've avoided TCW you're missing out on a lot.  I'm not saying all episodes are great, but even just watching for the world-building alone is worth it.  TCW has a depth not even the movies can match.

 

You're not helping my perception of the shows with potions and transmutation... Just because they're called witches doesn't mean they need classic medieval witch stereotypes, which ruins the novel's portrayal of them. To me that says that the show creators didn't do any amount of research or decided their work was better than what was already established.

 

I mainly bailed on TCW after watching a handful of episodes because I felt like it butchered a lot of other EU canon that I loved. Vast portions of the war were covered in excellent novels, and when that got chucked out, I got mad. Unexplained discrepancies cropped up. If Grievous and Anakin dueled in the past, why does Grievous not know him in Revenge of the Sith? If Anakin has re-dueled Dooku countless times since Attack of the Clones, then their exchange in Revenge of the Sith, "My powers have double since last time, Count," and "Good... Twice the pride, double the fall," seem out of place.

 

I don't want to derail the thread any more than it already is, but yeah, things like that drove me nuts to the point of ignoring it. I love Star Wars, so it was my passion for the canon and EU that made me hate it so much. The whole idea of Legends has given me less harsh feelings since the canon is being redefined, but I'm just an old school Star Wars nut.  :rolleyes:

 

The universe portrayed in my mind and the games I run consists of the original trilogy alone, plus whatever Legends stuff I decide to bring in with new twists. Sure, a lot of basic information filters in, like datapads (unseen in the films), slicing, and a pile of alien species, but it gives me a lot of room to work with around my primary love, which is the original films.

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You're not helping my perception of the shows with potions and transmutation... Just because they're called witches doesn't mean they need classic medieval witch stereotypes, which ruins the novel's portrayal of them.

 

I can't really say they are stereotypes, but you'd have to watch it to see.  It would be the same if I said "Jedi are Taoist monks"...it doesn't really convey the depth of it.  And maybe not all the Nightsisters are the same...

If you can handle the possibility of an unwritten-of clan, the Nightsisters episode is worth the watch, even if only for the Ventress backstory and Dooku fighting blind.

 

I mainly bailed on TCW after watching a handful of episodes because I felt like it butchered a lot of other EU canon that I loved. Vast portions of the war were covered in excellent novels, and when that got chucked out, I got mad. Unexplained discrepancies cropped up. If Grievous and Anakin dueled in the past, why does Grievous not know him in Revenge of the Sith? If Anakin has re-dueled Dooku countless times since Attack of the Clones, then their exchange in Revenge of the Sith, "My powers have double since last time, Count," and "Good... Twice the pride, double the fall," seem out of place.

 

 

Except there aren't any such discrepancies, at least not that I'm aware of.  Anakin never meets Grevious in any TCW episode.  Anakin does meet Dooku several times, and each time it's a little harder for Dooku to deal with him, so his comment isn't entirely out of line.  Not to mention, those words in E3 can just be chalked up to Anakin's pride...

 

If you want a story that doesn't conflict with any EU or the films (that I know of), check out the Bounty episode, which is about Ventress after Dooku betrays her.  One of my faves, probably one of the best standalone episodes in the series.  Worth it for a young Boba, Dengar, new planet, species, etc.

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Yep, potions and transmutation and undead revival...much improved over the (terrible) comics.

I avoided anything animated and Star Wars like the plague and still do, so unless they added some weird stuff in The Clone Wars...

 

 

To each their own, of course, but if you've avoided TCW you're missing out on a lot.  I'm not saying all episodes are great, but even just watching for the world-building alone is worth it.  TCW has a depth not even the movies can match.

 

You're not helping my perception of the shows with potions and transmutation... Just because they're called witches doesn't mean they need classic medieval witch stereotypes, which ruins the novel's portrayal of them. To me that says that the show creators didn't do any amount of research or decided their work was better than what was already established.

I have no idea which the creators of the show did and I'm not familiar with the EU version of the witches, but TCW does a really good job of passing these off and they're NOT presented as clichéd medieval witches. A weird fusion of voodoo and warrior clan with a dash of technology is a brief way of describing them, though I'm not convinced it's adequate. What parts of what they do are sorcery and what parts are hidden technology (there are hints that it is both) is never fully clear. Even the undead aren't zombies bursting from the ground. They seem to put their bodies in some sort of preserving pods that hang from the trees. I've actually found a better and shorter description of the Dathomir witches: "they are just weird."

I'm going to differ from whafrog and advise you not to go and watch the Nightsisters episode. Not because it isn't great, but because you wont get the full benefit. What I'm going to do is advise you to watch the whole series. The first episodes are hokey and you should track down the correct order to watch them in rather than the broadcast order. If you already have a strong negative reaction to this stuff without having seen it, then you may not enjoy the Nightsisters episode despite it being very good. (And yes, watching a blinded Dooku fighting is fantastic). You really need to watch the lot to get the proper build up, imo.

 

I mainly bailed on TCW after watching a handful of episodes because I felt like it butchered a lot of other EU canon that I loved. Vast portions of the war were covered in excellent novels, and when that got chucked out, I got mad. Unexplained discrepancies cropped up. If Grievous and Anakin dueled in the past, why does Grievous not know him in Revenge of the Sith? If Anakin has re-dueled Dooku countless times since Attack of the Clones, then their exchange in Revenge of the Sith, "My powers have double since last time, Count," and "Good... Twice the pride, double the fall," seem out of place.

I don't actually recall Anakin duelling Grevious in TCW. May well have happened but I can't think of any instance. He's mainly battling Obi-wan or other Jedi as well as trouncing Ahsoka. Dooku and Anakin don't meet face to face very often. They have a handful of clashes in the series. Dooku is terrifyingly effective in TCW.

You obviously have a deep affection for the EU material which I have no familiarity with so maybe TCW tramples all over it - that I can't comment on. However, once you get past the earlier and hokier episodes, it becomes very good. I can't imagine any Star Wars fan not getting into and enjoying it. You should really, imo, approach it with an open mind and start at the beginning.

I actually bought the complete set on Blu-ray. I'm ashamed to say that I originally was watching the episodes online but it wasn't shown anywhere and I didn't actually expect to like it and watch more than a couple. Anyway, the point is that when I got them on Blu-ray and saw what the episodes look like in HD - especially the later seasons - it's astonishing how good some of it looks. In the Umbaran episodes, you can hear the explosions all around you (if you have 5.1 speaker set up) and in those episodes where you see Anakin start to lose his temper, they do a great job on his expressions and give a very menacing foreshadowing of Vader.

Edited by knasserII

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This line and AoR are on my "I'll take one of everything" list, while for Edge I'm content with Core, Fly Casual and the as yet unnamed Bounty Hunter book.

 

One of my biggest complaints about the system is the near inability to improve FR without diving deep into a non-combat specialization. Either FR needs to be increasable by every specialization, OR it needs to be a characteristic, OR a universal spec needs to be put in with one or 2 FR+ talents and a Dedication Talent, along with Parry, Reflect and a couple of (Lightsaber, lore, etc.) skill is now a class skill talent. 

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