Feedback Array and touching an enemy ship

[emmjay 319]

Ok, was at a Store Championship yesterday and a situation came up.  I was touching an enemy ship and used Feedback Array on it.  Now, we came up with the solution that because it wasn't a normal attack (see the text of the card below) that it was able to be used on a ship that was touching.  Were we right or should we have asked for a ruling from the TO?

 

Feedback Array

" During the Combat Phase, instead of performing any attack, you may receive 1 ion token and suffer 1 damage to choose 1 enemy at Range 1.  That ship suffers 1 damage."

[Klutz 1,590]

You were correct.

Touching prevents attacks (normal or secondary). Feedback Array is not an attack.

[InterceptorMad 1,920]

It's what makes it rather good when you compare it to the negative effects.

[voidreturn 816]

I'd rule otherwise. The key is "instead", which means you'd have to be able to Declare Target. So instead of doing the Declare Target step of combat, you're using the Feedback Array.

It'll have to be FAQ'd for sure.

[StephenEsven 628]

Feedback array simply grants you another option in the combat phase. You can attack or use FA. Nowhere does FA state any other requirements. Even when you are on an asteroid you have the option to use FA as the only choice forbidden is perform an attack.

[Stronghammer 193]

To me, I read it as, if you can't attach, you can't use FA. It says instead of making any attack.

If you can't make any attack, you can't do something instead of it.

[StephenEsven 628]

Of cause you can. What you are saying is like saying that if you can't target lock, you can't focus instead.

Each ship is allowed to attack during the combat phase. Not until you perform the 7 steps can you determine if you have a valid target. And by then you already chose to use FA rather than attack

Edited March 2, 2015 by StephenEsven

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

If you can't make any attack, you can't do something instead of it.

 

You realize that sentence is a contradiction in itself, right?

[Mace Windu 1,101]

 

If you can't make any attack, you can't do something instead of it.

 

You realize that sentence is a contradiction in itself, right?

 

 

I'm not sure what you’re getting at, what Stronghammer said makes perfect sense to me and he is correct.

 

Feedback Array is a replacement effect, that is to say that it is worded in such a way that says if you would do X, you may instead do Y, Actual wording from the card:

 

During the Combat phase, instead of performing any attacks, you may receive 1 ion token and suffer 1 damage to choose 1 enemy ship at Range 1. That ship suffers 1 damage.

 

The word 'instead' means replacing the previous item with the new item.

 

The core rules clearly state that if you are parked on an asteroid you cannot attack, from Page 20 of the core rules:

 

Important: When overlapping an obstacle token,

the ship stays where it lands (on top of the token).

A ship that is overlapping an obstacle token during

the Combat phase cannot attack any ship but

may be targeted by other ships as normal.

 

 In this instance if you cannot attack, you cannot replace that attack with FA, Simple.

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

I'll just repost what i said in the other thread.

 

The word "Instead" contains both meanings: "as an alternative to" and "in place of".

 

You are reading it as "in place of". That's why you need an attack to replace it.

I'm reading it as "an alternative to". That's why if can't attack, I can still Feedback array you.

 

Both readings in the end are valid. We need the FAQ for this one.

[StephenEsven 628]

No FAQ shiuld be needed. Instead of means as an alternative to. If you end on an asteroide and use FA and then ask this question,the answer will be no.

Question: did you perform any attacks?

So you used FA. And you didn't violate the restriction from the asteroid.

FA does not have the Attack heading of a secondary weapon. So it is not an attack.

[Mace Windu 1,101]

Whilst I get that you are saying that "instead" can be interpreted as "Alternative", Alternative also implies more than 1 option is available i.e if FA were to be worded like this:

 

"As an alternative to attacking you may activate FA"

 

Now because attacking is not an option whilst parked on the asteroid, activating FA is actually no longer an Alternative because you don't have any other options to select.

 

I will say this that there is enough grey area here that clarifying it in the FAQ now seems to be a requirement.

[Buhallin 4,518]

 

The word "Instead" contains both meanings: "as an alternative to" and "in place of".

 

You are reading it as "in place of". That's why you need an attack to replace it.

I'm reading it as "an alternative to". That's why if can't attack, I can still Feedback array you.

 

Both readings in the end are valid. We need the FAQ for this one.

But which meaning is used in X-wing?

 

"Instead" appears almost 20 times.  If you have Flight Instructor but can't reroll one die, are you then allowed to roll two?  Same for Predator.  Genius.  Echo.  Emon.  Every single use of "instead" replaces something which already exists.  Am I missing anything which let you take the replacement option without the replacee already existing?

[TIE Pilot 3,501]

It says Instead of Attacking rather than Instead Of Attacking That Ship. I read it as replacing your attack step. The Feedbacking a colliding ship strikes as an easy one: you can do it. You still have an attack to replace and the Array isn't an attack. If you needed a valid attack to replace then the Array wouldn't work without a ship in arc.

 

Or to put it another way, yes, you can't attack a ship you're touching, but Feedback Array isn't an attack. If it were subject to attack targetting limitations it'd be arc locked.

 

The rock issue is FAQ bait. It's not an attack, but it occurs instead of one and the attack is skipped due to the rock. Two ways of reading that.

Edited March 3, 2015 by TIE Pilot

[Klutz 1,590]

The way I see Feedback array working:

• If you're on a rock, you can't use it (since you can't attack)
• If you're not on a rock, you can use it.
  • Doesn't matter if you have anyone in arc or not (you give up performing an attack, therefore never even get to the "declare target" step)
  • You can target any ship at range 1, whether they are touching you or not (since it's not an attack)

Edited March 3, 2015 by Klutz

[CruzinToVictory 61]

 

The way I see Feedback array working:

• If you're on a rock, you can't use it (since you can't attack)
• If you're not on a rock, you can use it.
  • Doesn't matter if you have anyone in arc or not (you give up performing an attack, therefore never even get to the "declare target" step)
  • You can target any ship at range 1, whether they are touching you or not (since it's not an attack)

 

Ding ding ding ding ding!

 

Agree 100%

[StephenEsven 628]

Normally you have one option in the combat phase. Now you get a card that grants you another option. Then you get into a situationn where the first option is not allowed. That can never disallow the second option.

Any upgrade card with the Action header let's you do that action instead of an action from your action bar. So if you lose your actions from the action bar can you then not use the action from the upgrade card? After all if is replacing your normal actions

[Klutz 1,590]

Any upgrade card with the Action header let's you do that action instead of an action from your action bar. So if you lose your actions from the action bar can you then not use the action from the upgrade card? After all if is replacing your normal actions

 

That's a poor example...

 

From the rule book, page 9:

"Other Actions Some card abilities include the “Action:” header. A ship may resolve this ability during its “Perform Action” step. This counts as that ship’s action for the round."

 

They never use the words "Instead of".

 

 

 

A better example might've been Flight Instructor:

"When defending, you may reroll one of your 'focus' results. If the attacker's pilot skill is '2' or lower you may reroll 1 of your blank results instead."

 

Do you need to have a focus result that you could've rerolled to be allowed to reroll a blank instead?

[StephenEsven 628]

Yes that is probably a better example. What I was trying to get at was that adding an extra choice still makes that choice valid even if the original choice is lost.

[StephenEsven 628]

I just went back to the Illicit Dealings article mentioning Feedback Array. They actually answer a lot of the questions. 

 

 

A Feedback Array allows you to damage any one target within Range “1.” However, to use the Feedback Array, you must forego your attack and receive one ion token. Even though you’d be trading away your attacks for just one damage, that’s a trade in which the value is easy enough to identify. You might find yourself outflanked, lacking a shot altogether; or you might want to land just one more damage on a ship that you’re touching, in order to finally destroy it. The ion token, however, is another matter. Ionized ships are forced to utilize straight speed “1” maneuvers, which leaves them exposed and predictable. Still, there are definitely times even the ion token is an acceptable cost. For starters, if you equip IG-2000 with a Feedback Array, the first ion token won’t ionize your ship. Then, since the Feedback Array costs just two squad points, one might imagine equipping it on up to seven Binayre Pirates who could then simply fly within Range “1” of the target of their choice and obliterate it, no dice required.

 

So you can use Feedback Array if you have no valid target for an attack, and you can use it against enemies you are touching.

[Smuggler 554]

If "instead" requires the first option to be a valid choise for the second option to be valid... Then "I was going to buy an X-wing, but they where sold out so I bought a Y-wing instead" would be an invalid use of the word "instead"? It sounds perfectly alright to me (gramaticaly any way). But then again, english is not my first language.

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

If "instead" requires the first option to be a valid choise for the second option to be valid... Then "I was going to buy an X-wing, but they where sold out so I bought a Y-wing instead" would be an invalid use of the word "instead"? It sounds perfectly alright to me (gramaticaly any way). But then again, english is not my first language.

Indeed. According to the other interpretation, you can't buy the Y-wing if there are not X-Wings on the shelves.

However, if there are X-wings available, you are allowed to buy Y-wings instead.

[Forgottenlore 9,823]

I just went back to the Illicit Dealings article mentioning Feedback Array. They actually answer a lot of the questions. 

 

 

A Feedback Array allows you to damage any one target within Range “1.” However, to use the Feedback Array, you must forego your attack and receive one ion token. Even though you’d be trading away your attacks for just one damage, that’s a trade in which the value is easy enough to identify. You might find yourself outflanked, lacking a shot altogether; or you might want to land just one more damage on a ship that you’re touching, in order to finally destroy it. The ion token, however, is another matter. Ionized ships are forced to utilize straight speed “1” maneuvers, which leaves them exposed and predictable. Still, there are definitely times even the ion token is an acceptable cost. For starters, if you equip IG-2000 with a Feedback Array, the first ion token won’t ionize your ship. Then, since the Feedback Array costs just two squad points, one might imagine equipping it on up to seven Binayre Pirates who could then simply fly within Range “1” of the target of their choice and obliterate it, no dice required.

 

So you can use Feedback Array if you have no valid target for an attack, and you can use it against enemies you are touching.

 

While I agree that it is supposed to work that way, and will be FAQed as such, the news articles have been known to suggest interactions in direct contradiction to the rules before.

[gamblertuba 5,288]

 

If "instead" requires the first option to be a valid choise for the second option to be valid... Then "I was going to buy an X-wing, but they where sold out so I bought a Y-wing instead" would be an invalid use of the word "instead"? It sounds perfectly alright to me (gramaticaly any way). But then again, english is not my first language.

Indeed. According to the other interpretation, you can't buy the Y-wing if there are not X-Wings on the shelves.

However, if there are X-wings available, you are allowed to buy Y-wings instead.

 

How about I went to the store to buy an X-wing but when I got there, I discovered I had no money.  Can I buy a Y-wing instead?

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

 

 

If "instead" requires the first option to be a valid choise for the second option to be valid... Then "I was going to buy an X-wing, but they where sold out so I bought a Y-wing instead" would be an invalid use of the word "instead"? It sounds perfectly alright to me (gramaticaly any way). But then again, english is not my first language.

Indeed. According to the other interpretation, you can't buy the Y-wing if there are not X-Wings on the shelves.

However, if there are X-wings available, you are allowed to buy Y-wings instead.

 

How about I went to the store to buy an X-wing but when I got there, I discovered I had no money.  Can I buy a Y-wing instead?

 

 

No, but you can take a stress token and rob it instead. Since robbing is not buying, you don't need money for robbing.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Jehan Menasis