Autoblaster, Accuracy corrector, and Sensor Jammer

[droz69 232]

When do all of these go off.  Shoot Autoblaster, get 2 hits.  Sensor jammer turns 1 hit to a focus.  Don't have any focus, so I choose to cancel all dice and add two hits with accuracy corrector.  remains with 2 hits, sensor jammer does not reactivate.  

 

Am I correct on the timing?

[dbmeboy 807]

When do all of these go off.  Shoot Autoblaster, get 2 hits.  Sensor jammer turns 1 hit to a focus.  Don't have any focus, so I choose to cancel all dice and add two hits with accuracy corrector.  remains with 2 hits, sensor jammer does not reactivate.  

 

Am I correct on the timing?

Correct.

 

Timing is:

- Attacker rolls dice

- Defender modifies attack dice (Sensor Jammer can be used here)

- Attacker modifies attack dice

- Defender rolls dice

- Attacker modifies defense dice

- Defender modifies defense dice

- Compare dice step begins (abilities that cancel dice are used here, which means this is where you can use Accuracy Corrector)

[droz69 232]

Thanks, appreciate it!  Now I just need to get into range 1 with the bloody thing!

[droz69 232]

Ok, here is another question i just thought of.  I roll 2 crits and a hit.  Defender roll three dice, rolls 2 blanks, a focus, and has an evade token.  He spends the focus and evade token to cancel the crits.  I then cancel all of my dice and use accuracy corrector, effectively stripping his ship of evade and focus tokens, and then cancelling my dice and getting two hits through.

 

Is this correct?

[ObiWonka 7,081]

Nope. Once you start cancelling dice, you're past the modification stage where Accuracy Corrector kicks in. It'd probably cost at least twice as much if it was effectively a Gunner that was guaranteed 2 hits.

[droz69 232]

Nope. Once you start cancelling dice, you're past the modification stage where Accuracy Corrector kicks in. It'd probably cost at least twice as much if it was effectively a Gunner that was guaranteed 2 hits.

 

Sorry, I'm a bit confused by what your saying.  You are saying it won't work, but cancelling happens after all modification, so it would work.  

 

edit:  I think I understand.  His modification step would work, meaning he has to use his focus, but when the evade token and the dice are now compared, he would not have to use the evade token, but he's already used the focus token.  Is this correct?

Edited February 28, 2015 by droz69

[ObiWonka 7,081]

 

Nope. Once you start cancelling dice, you're past the modification stage where Accuracy Corrector kicks in. It'd probably cost at least twice as much if it was effectively a Gunner that was guaranteed 2 hits.

 

Sorry, I'm a bit confused by what your saying.  You are saying it won't work, but cancelling happens after all modification, so it would work.  

 

edit:  I think I understand.  His modification step would work, meaning he has to use his focus, but when the evade token and the dice are now compared, he would not have to use the evade token, but he's already used the focus token.  Is this correct?

 

No, it's far too late to use Accuracy Corrector. He's free to use both Focus and Evade.

 

1. Roll attack dice.

2. Defender modifies attack dice (if able).

3. Attacker modifies attack dice (if able).

4. Roll defense dice.

5. Attacker modifies defense dice (if able).

6. Defender modifies defense dice (if able).

7. Compare results and deal damage.

 

Accuracy Corrector kicks in at step 3. Spending Focus is step 6. All of that happens before dealing damage, so if you start dealing damage it's too late to go back for Accuracy Corrector.

[droz69 232]

Ok, I've got two different answers here then.  One says it happens in step 3, another at compare/cancel dice step.  Which one is it.

[dbmeboy 807]

 

No, it's far too late to use Accuracy Corrector. He's free to use both Focus and Evade.

 

1. Roll attack dice.

2. Defender modifies attack dice (if able).

3. Attacker modifies attack dice (if able).

4. Roll defense dice.

5. Attacker modifies defense dice (if able).

6. Defender modifies defense dice (if able).

7. Compare results and deal damage.

 

Accuracy Corrector kicks in at step 3. Spending Focus is step 6. All of that happens before dealing damage, so if you start dealing damage it's too late to go back for Accuracy Corrector.

 

This isn't actually correct.  Accuracy Correct kicks in at step 7.  Reference is rule book, pg 12:

 

"All abilities that allow players to cancel dice must be

resolved at the start of the “Compare Results” step."

Edited February 28, 2015 by dbmeboy

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

Ok, I've got two different answers here then.  One says it happens in step 3, another at compare/cancel dice step.  Which one is it.

The answer is that we don't know yet. FFG needs to step in and "clarify" the matter. There are pretty solid arguments in both directions and there gave been more than a few heated arguments regarding when AC occurs. If your really interested, do a search in this forum for "accuracy corrector" and you'll probably find a few threads that will give you an idea of the arguments.

[Cupid Stunt 10]

I don't think it needs any clarification - it seems pretty straightforward. 

 

I roll attack dice and the target rolls defence dice.  Any modifications get made to the dice at the correct step (including spending focus and evade tokens).  Then I choose to activate the AC or not.  For example, I roll 0 hits but my opponent still has to roll his defence dice.  If he rolls 0 evades he would have to choose whether to spend focus or evade tokens.  If at this point he still has 0 evades, I choose (at the start of the compare results phase) to cancel my dice and score 2 hits - it's too late for my opponent to do anything so my 2 hits go through.

 

That's just my interpretation though.

[Cptnhalfbeard 680]

There needs to be some way to ban all questions about accuracy corrector until FFG gives us a ruling. There is no point in discussing anything about AC whatsoever until we get an answer.

[StephenEsven 632]

There should be no need to discuss it at all. The rules are quite clear. But it is not the first time an FAQ has been needed for players in general to accept what the rulebook says. There are plenty of threads where we have debated AC, so lets not start the debate again.

[Klutz 1,590]

This topic came up again in the "Common Wave 6 Questions" thread, and, to not derail that thread completely, I thought I'd post my thoughts here as well....

 

 

 

Some people say that, since Accuracy Corrector says to cancel dice results, it must be applied during step 6 of an attack ("Compare Results"). They reference the following passage from page 12 of the rule book: "All abilities that allow players to cancel dice must be resolved at the start of the “Compare Results” step."

 

To me, this makes no sense.

 

It would allow for the following scenario:

• Step 2: Attacker rolls 1 un-cancelable crit result with Ten Numb
• Step 3: No one modifies the attack dice.
• Step 4: Defender rolls all blanks
• Step 5: Defender has 1 evade token, but decides to keep the evade token, since the crit is uncancelable anyways.
• Step 6: The attacker, knowing the defender hasn't spent the evade token, decides to use Accuracy Corrector to cancel the crit, and score 2 hits.
• Step 7: Defender, having 0 shields, is dealt 2 face down damage cards.

In this scenario, had the defender decided to spend his evade token, the attacker could then decide to NOT use accuracy corrector (which would have scored 1 normal hit), and instead score 1 critical hit.

 

A similar scenario could be constructed for an attacker rolling 3 crit results with an Autoblaster Cannon, who could decide to turn that into 2 (uncancelable) hit results thanks to Accuracy Corrector once they know how many of the crit results the defender canceled with their dice/tokens.

 

 

It makes much more sens, to me at least, to have Accuracy Corrector be applied during Step 3 ("Modify Attack Dice").

There is, afaik, no other ability that let's the attacker modify their attack dice once they know what the defender's die roll is - this seems to be one of the basic building blocks of X-Wing and I don't think Accuracy Corrector was meant to change this.

[StephenEsven 632]

That is exactly what AC is designed to do.

Why is it so hard for people to accept that the devs actually put a rule in from day 1 that now has an actual use because we now get an upgrade that triggers the rule? It actually makes perfect sense that all abilities that allow you to cancel dice happen in Step 6 of combat. After all it could cancel attack dice, defence dice or both. So all dice must have been cast and modified.

I have argued this in a few other threads so I won't repeat them here. You can look up my posts.

[Klutz 1,590]

There's also this short passage in the "Modifying Dice Results" cutout on page 12 of the rule book:

 

"Modifying Dice Results

[...] Dice in this common area may be modified in a variety of ways, and their final results determine how much damage the target ship suffers (if any)."

 

This "their final results" seems to indicate that, once past the "Modify Attack/Defense Dice" step, the attack/defense dice should be considered final and no longer be modified.

 

I know this is not super convincing evidence, but, to me, it shows the intention of the game designers. And yes, this argument is firmly in "Rules as Intended" territory

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

That is exactly what AC is designed to do.

Why is it so hard for people to accept that the devs actually put a rule in from day 1 that now has an actual use because we now get an upgrade that triggers the rule? It actually makes perfect sense that all abilities that allow you to cancel dice happen in Step 6 of combat. After all it could cancel attack dice, defence dice or both. So all dice must have been cast and modified.

I have argued this in a few other threads so I won't repeat them here. You can look up my posts.

"That's what AC is designed to do" is a pretty big assumption, and your case is stronger if you set it aside.

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

The source of problems with Accuracy Corrector is its last sentence:

 

"Your dice cannot be modified again during this attack"

 

This led people to think that because of it, AC should trigger at a point in which the players could still modify attacker's results, otherwise the rule is devoid of meaning.

 

It is clear by the rules that abilities that allow cancelling dice, like accuracy corrector, must happen at the start of the compare results step.

 

However, it is also clear that when an upgrade or ability conflicts with the rules, the card overrides the rules.

 

But few people know that even if AC triggered in step 3, those results would be already immune to modification regardless what AC's text says. Added results can never be modified (changed or re-rolled) they can only be cancelled, so again, the last sentence would be (is) devoid of meaning.

 

So, since the last sentence is in all cases devoid of meaning, and it doesn't explicitly contradicts or conflicts with the general rules, the safer bet would be just applying the 'normal' rules, and cancelling dice in the compare results step.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Jehan Menasis

[ObiWonka 7,081]

Accuracy Corrector did not exist when the rules were written. The line about "canceling dice" applies to spending Evade tokens and the like, because they are not "modifying dice" like a Focus token would be in an earlier step. We tend to lump it all together as players because it makes the whole process smoother during a game. It's an unfortunate coincidence of wording on Accuracy Corrector. As pointed out above, the AC wording tells you it can't be modified again because it happens during the modification step. It's there to prevent people from rolling 4 dice, adding 2 hits, then using TLs and such to add even MORE hits.

 

If AC worked the other way (which it doesn't), I repeat that forcing through two hits AFTER your opponent is required to spend all their defensive capabilities would make AC better than Gunner... at 2 points less. That clearly can't be true.

 

Accuracy Corrector, true to its name, is about guaranteeing the accuracy of your attack roll. If it got you two hits no matter what defenses your opponent was able to put up, it would be called "Super Duper Incredibly Accurate and Indefensible Lasers of Doom" or something. SDIAILD for short.

[Buhallin 4,563]

However, it is also clear that when an upgrade or ability conflicts with the rules, the card overrides the rules.

 

This is a common misapplication of the golden rule, but one that can cause a lot of problems.

Card abilities override rules when they conflict. Important detail. Tycho's ability says he can perform actions while stressed., the rules say you can't. These conflict, so the ability wins and you can.

There may be debate on the timing for AC, but whatever it is, there's nothing in the ability which conflicts with the timing rules. The question is whether it founds as a cancelation effect or a modification effect - but whichever it is, it activates as defined by the rules for that class of effect.

[Buhallin 4,563]

Accuracy Corrector did not exist when the rules were written. The line about "canceling dice" applies to spending Evade tokens and the like, because they are not "modifying dice" like a Focus token would be in an earlier step. We tend to lump it all together as players because it makes the whole process smoother during a game. It's an unfortunate coincidence of wording on Accuracy Corrector. As pointed out above, the AC wording tells you it can't be modified again because it happens during the modification step. It's there to prevent people from rolling 4 dice, adding 2 hits, then using TLs and such to add even MORE hits.

 

If AC worked the other way (which it doesn't), I repeat that forcing through two hits AFTER your opponent is required to spend all their defensive capabilities would make AC better than Gunner... at 2 points less. That clearly can't be

Wow. So much wrong

First, none of the cards in Scum existed when the rules were written. That doesn't mean that every one of them ignores the rules when it's inconvenient.

Second, you have the dice process all wrong. Evade tokens don't cancel dice, they add results. They're also explicitly spent in Step 5. Dice are canceled by comparing results, after modification to those results.

Finally, Accuracy Corrector goes off at the beginning of Step 6, before you actually compare and cancel results. So it doesn't land two uncancelable hits, which is what you seem to think it does. It replaces the attack results, which are then canceled by he defender's results as normal.

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

Accuracy Corrector did not exist when the rules were written. The line about "canceling dice" applies to spending Evade tokens and the like, because they are not "modifying dice" like a Focus token would be in an earlier step. We tend to lump it all together as players because it makes the whole process smoother during a game. It's an unfortunate coincidence of wording on Accuracy Corrector. As pointed out above, the AC wording tells you it can't be modified again because it happens during the modification step. It's there to prevent people from rolling 4 dice, adding 2 hits, then using TLs and such to add even MORE hits.

 

If AC worked the other way (which it doesn't), I repeat that forcing through two hits AFTER your opponent is required to spend all their defensive capabilities would make AC better than Gunner... at 2 points less. That clearly can't be

Wow. So much wrong

First, none of the cards in Scum existed when the rules were written. That doesn't mean that every one of them ignores the rules when it's inconvenient.

Second, you have the dice process all wrong. Evade tokens don't cancel dice, they add results. They're also explicitly spent in Step 5. Dice are canceled by comparing results, after modification to those results.

Finally, Accuracy Corrector goes off at the beginning of Step 6, before you actually compare and cancel results. So it doesn't land two uncancelable hits, which is what you seem to think it does. It replaces the attack results, which are then canceled by he defender's results as normal.

I think ObiWonka is referring to an thought experiment upthread, in which:

(1) Ten Numb + Accuracy Corrector has a single [crit] result and no [hit] results

(2) The defender has an evade token, and rolls no [evade] results

(3) If AC isn't resolved until Step 6, the defender must decide whether to spend his or her evade token in response to the threat of Accuracy Corrector, even though the AC hasn't been triggered yet.

(4a) If the evade token is spent, Ten Numb doesn't activate AC, and the result going into Step 7 is one uncanceled [crit] result.

(4b) if the evade token isn't spent, Ten Numb activates AC in Step 6, and the result going into Step 7 is two uncanceled [hit] results.

It's a situation that can easily be resolved, but the order of effects is weird and unintuitive if you're used to X-wing's usual I roll/you modify/I modify structure.

[VanorDM 11,599]

but the order of effects is weird and unintuitive if you're used to X-wing's usual I roll/you modify/I modify structure.

I agree it seems odd, but it is not a very good basis to debate a rule on. Rules should be debated based on the rules, and not how someone things something should work.

The fact that AC didn't exist when the rules were written means nothing and has no bearing on the debate.

I'm not really sure how exactly it would work, but it seems a lot of the "AC happens in step 3" is based on how people think something should work, what is balanced and what isn't. When the rules were written, and other things, with very few actual rules to support that opinion.

[Buhallin 4,563]

 

I think ObiWonka is referring to an thought experiment upthread, in which:

 

I don't think he was though, because of this:

 

If AC worked the other way (which it doesn't), I repeat that forcing through two hits AFTER your opponent is required to spend all their defensive capabilities would make AC better than Gunner

 

Maybe I'm just reading it really wrong, but "forcing through two hits" divorces it from the Ten Numb example.  But he seems to be throwing a lot of stuff how without considering it.  For example again, he also said "It's there to prevent people from rolling 4 dice, adding 2 hits, then using TLs and such to add even MORE hits.".  I'm not sure how a TL is supposed to add more hits when you only have two dice, both of which are already showing hits.

 

There's just so much wrong with the entire thing.

 

But if I interpreted it incorrectly, that's my bad, and reduces it to merely insanely hyperbolic (even by our standards).  Ten Numb maybe having the potential to make the opponent waste an evade token to no effect is better than Gunner?

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

 

However, it is also clear that when an upgrade or ability conflicts with the rules, the card overrides the rules.

 

This is a common misapplication of the golden rule, but one that can cause a lot of problems.

Card abilities override rules when they conflict. Important detail. Tycho's ability says he can perform actions while stressed., the rules say you can't. These conflict, so the ability wins and you can.

There may be debate on the timing for AC, but whatever it is, there's nothing in the ability which conflicts with the timing rules. The question is whether it founds as a cancelation effect or a modification effect - but whichever it is, it activates as defined by the rules for that class of effect.

 

 

Indeed. That's why I specifically use the word 'conflicts', and later, I also state that AC and the rules don't conflict. But clarifying things never hurts.