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dantop83

Riddle me this Aggromech and Feedback Array! Questions that need a FAQ ruling!

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Here are two cards that NEED FAQ clarification, but I was curious to see what the community at large thought about the rulings. The MAIN concern is question 1 for each card, but these could be debated either way and was hoping to vet out some opinions in the absence of facts to properly argue and get a fair ruling from a local TO.

 

R4 Aggromech: “When attacking, after you spend a focus token, you may acquire a target lock on the defender.”

 

  1. If I am using the focus to pay for a Blaster Turret attack does that trigger the “When attacking” condition giving me a Target Lock? This question would also apply to Proton Rockets or use of the Deadeye skill correct?
  2. So I can spend my focus to change my eyes to hits, and THEN I get a target lock that I can then use to re-roll any eligible dice…right? (I assume yes is the answer since it should be the base intention of this card)

 

 

Feedback Array:  "During the Combat phase, instead of performing any attacks, you may receive 1 ion token and suffer 1 damage to choose 1 enemy ship at Range 1. That ship suffers 1 damage."

 

 

  1. Can I use this to hurt ships if I am on a rock??
  2. Can I use this to hurt a ship I am touching? (AND does this answer change if I have no other legal shots out of my arc?)
  3. The card says “during combat phase” so do I have to wait until my ship becomes the active attacker before I can use this ability or is it ambiguous and can be at “any time” during combat?

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Spending the token to fire a Blaster Turret or use to Deadeye (Y-Wings can't take Proton Rockets but it would work the same ) does trigger R4 Aggromech and you can spend the Target Lock on the current attack. If you spend a focus to change eyeballs to hits (or with Calculation to change an eyeball to a crit) you can spend the resulting Target Lock to reroll dice. 

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Prockets don't actually spend the focus token...

 

But aside from that yes I agree with all your answers. The question really is, WHERE is it defined that spending the token to fire a secondary weapon is considered part of an "attack"

 

The full phase is called "combat" and a true "attack" is not defined anywhere I can see...I think Aggromech SHOULD trigger off Blaster Turret, BUT I want it to be clear since this can also be heavily argued that the attack doesn't start until dice are rolled and the real intention of Agrromech's ability is for the answer to part 2.

 

My take on Feeback array is that answer 2 and 1 should be the same.

 

For me to "USE" feedback array when I am touching a ship and have no legal shot would be the same logic as it working while parked on a rock. Being on a rock does NOT make me "skip my attack", but rather not be able to attack. The same as if I am touching your ship. Does that make sense? And thus is my argument for why YES it works while parked on a rock.

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Being on a rock does NOT make me "skip my attack", but rather not be able to attack. The same as if I am touching your ship. Does that make sense?

I'm not sure there's actually a difference between skipping your attack and not being able to attack...  But regardless, not having a target is not the same as not being able to attack.  You actually have to start the attack process in order to determine if you have any valid targets, so a lack of valid targets cannot (by definition) stop you from being able to attack.  On the other hand, if you're on a rock, you can't attack - which means you can't even start the process, so you'd have no justification for trying to measure arc/range from the ship on the obstacle.

 

 

My take on Feeback array is that answer 2 and 1 should be the same.

 

These don't actually have anything to do with each other.  Whether you can attack doesn't consider whether you're touching a ship; as long as you can use the Feedback array, there are no targeting limitations other than the range.  They're independent questions.

 

The timing question is also answered via it being "instead of" making an attack.  You have to have an attack to replace with the Array, which will happen at your normal PS.

 

But aside from that yes I agree with all your answers. The question really is, WHERE is it defined that spending the token to fire a secondary weapon is considered part of an "attack"

 

"When attacking" applies for the full duration of your attack (Steps 1-7).  Selecting a secondary weapon is during Step 2.  There's a good FAQ precedent here thanks to Dark Curse and the Blaster Turret.

Edited by Buhallin

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. The question really is, WHERE is it defined that spending the token to fire a secondary. .

Look at the steps of the combat phase.

Step 1 is declare target. As of this moment you are officially attacking.

Step 2 is where you choose what weapon you're firing, so if you fire a secondary, and spend a focus in doing so, you are 2 steps deep into an attack.... So yeah spending a focus to fire a secondary is definitely while attacking.

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You actually declare what weapon you are using before you initiate the attack. Otherwise you would not be able to determine target validity in Step 1.

This plus the text spend the token to perform this attack would have me argue that spending the token happens before the attack and not trigger aggro mech. But the dark curse FAQ makes it clear that the developers think spending the token is part of the attack.

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You actually declare what weapon you are using before you initiate the attack. Otherwise you would not be able to determine target validity in Step 1.

No. You declare the target in step one and the weapon in step two.

 

RAW turret secondary weapons do not work outside the firing arc.

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No. You declare.... the weapon in step two.

I've never seen anyone explain the rationale for this. You calculate number of attack dice in step 2, so you obviously must know the weapon by then, but I can't find anything saying you declare use of secondary weapons in that step. What is the reason to not think you are declaring weapon and target at the same time in step 1?

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No. You declare.... the weapon in step two.

I've never seen anyone explain the rationale for this. You calculate number of attack dice in step 2, so you obviously must know the weapon by then, but I can't find anything saying you declare use of secondary weapons in that step. What is the reason to not think you are declaring weapon and target at the same time in step 1?
The step 2 is roll attack dice, and it is described as follows:

The attacker rolls a number of attack dice equal to his ship’s primary weapon value (red number), unless using a secondary weapon (see “Secondary Weapons” on page 19).

So you are choosing the weapon at that time. You're not choosing a target and weapon at the same time, you are selecting a weapon and rolling that many dice at one time. You declare your target, then you roll x number of dice based on the weapon you decide to use.

If you were able to choose your weapon first, then the whole biggs ruling where you can't choose to fire missiles at a ship within range 1 of biggs would make no sense. That's why that ruling works, you choose target, then choose your weapon.

Edited by Cptnhalfbeard

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Regarding Feedback Array, my take (and I might be wrong) is if you cannot declare a target of an attack, then you cannot trigger FA. That's because it says "instead of performing any attacks", which mean you must be able to "perform any attacks", and the first stage of that is Declare Target. So if you cannot Declare Target because you are on a rock, then you cannot trigger FA. Similar to touching a ship. If there is no target you could Declare Target, you cannot trigger the conditions on FA. So if the only ship that satisfies Declare Target (Firing Arc and Range conditions on page 10 of the rules) is the ship you are touching, then you cannot trigger FA.

 

I would be very surprised if FFG rules otherwise. Then again, they ruled that you could spend a focus on an attack even if you don't roll any eyeballs, so maybe they interpret things different.

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The attacker rolls a number of attack dice equal to his ship’s primary weapon value (red number), unless using a secondary weapon (see “Secondary Weapons” on page 19).

This actually does not day you choose what weapon to use in step 2. It says you roll the number of attack dice on your pilot card unless you are attacking with a secondary weapon, in which case you roll the number of attack dice up the secondary weapon upgrade card.

 

As for Feedback Array, you get to use it instead of what you normally do in the combat phase. Nowhere is it stated that you need to have a valid target or forbid you to use Feedback Array just because you are on an Asteroid.

 

Imagine a situation like the one on the card art. You are being dogged by an enemy ship behind you. Rules wise you would not be able to attack this ship, as it is outside your firing arc (forget about turrets here). So you choose to use feedback array to deal some damage to the ship. It would be a really crappy card if it could only affect a ship at Range 1 AND in your firing arc.It would also not make sense if you could use it against a ship at Range 1 outside your firing arc if you had another enemy ship in arc and Range of your primary weapon, but not use it if you had no valid target in arc and range.

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I think people is getting carried away by fluff interpretations of what's an attack.

 

Touching a ship prevents you from declaring the touched ship as target of your attack. But this means an 'attack' by the Xwing rules, which is the complex process with the 7 steps.

 

Feedback array happens "instead of performing any attacks". And as I read it, it substitutes the whole attack process, including the 'declaring target step' since you are not going to make any attacks at all in the round.

 

All special abilities from upgrades and pilots work between touching ships, and in fact, some even depend on you precisely touching an enemy ship... So the 'no declare target' restriction for touching ships seems to refer exclusively to attacks (primary or secondary, in the strict sense), not for abilities, even if that ability is 'offensive' in nature and could be considered as an 'attack'.

 

So, for Feedback array, I would say that it works perfectly between touching ships, even when your enemy would be the only thing in your firing arc. You are not going to make any attacks, so you don't need valid targets for the attack. You are going to use an ability, which have no such 'target-touching' restrictions.

 

 

Overlapping a rock prevents you from making attacks (ANY attack) but not from using abilities. The above explanation should apply, since again, you are not going to make any attacks. You are going to use an ability, which is damaging one, granted, but by the rules, it cannot be considered 'an attack'. If feedback array had the header "Attack:" then sure, but it is not the case. 

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The attacker rolls a number of attack dice equal to his ship’s primary weapon value (red number), unless using a secondary weapon (see “Secondary Weapons” on page 19).

This actually does not day you choose what weapon to use in step 2. It says you roll the number of attack dice on your pilot card unless you are attacking with a secondary weapon, in which case you roll the number of attack dice up the secondary weapon upgrade card.

Does anyone actually reference the rules in these discussions any more?

 

Step 2:

Instead of attacking with its primary weapon, the attacker may choose to use a secondary weapon Upgrade card that his ship has equipped (see “Upgrade Cards” on page 19).

 

This timing is also the source of the Dark Curse vs. Blaster Turret ruling, and why I gripe on a regular basis about secondary weapons being completely broken.

 

Back on Feebback Array, let's go to the FAQ as well:

During this phase, each ship may perform one attack against one enemy ship. Starting with the ship with the highest pilot skill, to perform one attack, players resolve the following steps in order:

 

If you cannot attack, you cannot perform Declare Target.  If you can't perform Declare Target, you can never know if something is in your arc or not.  Feedback Array replaces the attack entirely, so you are actually prohibited from checking to see if you have a valid target.

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Just to clarify: Aggromech and Blaster turret definitely work due to the precedent created by "Dark Curse" who actually prevents the use of Blaster Turret. This also just won a store champs over the weekend in AZ.

 

 

Feedback Array unfortunately looks like it could go either way. I would argue that with no precedent and just off of wording that you CAN'T use it if you are parked on a rock OR if you don't have a shot at anything in your arc. BUTBUTBUT FFG can simply make this card do whatever their intention was with the FAQ when it drops. A TO could rule this either way and Store Championships have already been going and have had this come up and be rules two different ways, which sucks, but until there's official word it's just going to be up to the TOs out there.. :(

 

(For what it's worth I bet the intention of the card is that you don't need to have a shot to use it, so that you can "electrify/ionize yourself" to zap a ship regardless if you have a shot at any ship or if you are on a rock. Otherwise the use of this card might drop to ZERO as opposed to being semi-useful.) :)

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to zap a ship regardless if you have a shot at any ship or if you are on a rock.

The two things are not the same though, and shouldn't be considered the same way.

You can start the attack process regardless of if you have a valid target or not. In fact you kind of have to, because you can't determine if there's a valid target at all until you start the attack phase for that ship.

So since you are eligible to start an attack that means you can do something else instead of the standard attack phase.

However, if you have landed on an obstacle you "cannot attack any ship". Logically you can not do something instead of something you can't do in the first place.

That said FFG's rules don't always function based on logic so it's possible that they will allow you to use it even when on a rock.

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 Logically you can not do something instead of something you can't do in the first place.

 

Say what you want, but I don't see the logic on that sentence anywhere...  :P

 

Jokes aside, the matter of fact is that "instead" contains both meanings: 'as an alternative to' and 'in place of'. So this will require a FAQ in the end.

 

I believe 'as an alternative' will prevail, simply because it is easier and cleaner to rule.

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I believe 'as an alternative' will prevail, simply because it is easier and cleaner to rule.

That honestly has nothing to do with it.

FFG will rule based on how they want the card to work in the first place, not what is easier or cleaner.

Besides saying it's a replacement for an attack, and as such you have to be able to attack in the first place is quite clean and easy.

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Besides saying it's a replacement for an attack, and as such you have to be able to attack in the first place is quite clean and easy.

 

 

And then we enter the realm of 'im touching but I can attack', 'I'm touching but I cannot attack', 'I theoretically could attack but I don't have targets', 'I can attack if I spend my hotblaster but I decide to feedback array you, but I already spent my hotblaster card" and yadadadadadaddda.

 

Or...

 

You can either decide to attack normally... or use Feedback array (if you can't or you don't want to attack). Taa dah!

 

As said... Easier and cleaner

Edited by Jehan Menasis

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As said... Easier and cleaner

You may think so, but that seems largely influenced by your opinion on the matter to start with. Because you are either intentionally misstating things that have been covered or else you are confused about this argument.

There is little easier then an FAQ entry that says "You can not use this ability if you have landed on an obstacle."

I honestly don't care how they rule.

But they will rule based on how they wanted the card to work, what we may think it easier or cleaner simply doesn't factor into their decision.

Edited by VanorDM

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There is little easier then an FAQ entry that says "You can not use this ability if you have landed on an obstacle."

 

Debris included?  :D  ... I know, I know, just kidding... Your point is clear.

 

But they will rule based on how they wanted the card to work, what we may think it easier or cleaner simply doesn't factor into their decision.

 

Probably true, but never understimate human lazyness...

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  1. Can I use this to hurt ships if I am on a rock??
  2. Can I use this to hurt a ship I am touching? (AND does this answer change if I have no other legal shots out of my arc?)
  3. The card says “during combat phase” so do I have to wait until my ship becomes the active attacker before I can use this ability or is it ambiguous and can be at “any time” during combat?

 

The first one I'd say yes, but it's FAQ bait.

The second, yes you can. Touching ships are at Range 1, I believe another case confirms this.

Yes, you have to wait for your ship's attack window. X-wing has no interrupts, everything happens in sequence.

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