Jump to content
WarrenH

Spitfire Talent

Recommended Posts

Looking at it, it seems to more turn the attacks into Autofire so you could buy additional hits on other targets as advantage allows.

 

Even if you only let them buy one more, it does let them go after a higher Def target with the spitfire attacks. 

 

Paired works well for 1-handed melee weapons too. And since you can laser sight and pair most light weapons it's not a bad attachment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm glad to see this thread - one of my players was really digging the two-pistol gunslinger archetype until he found out the limitation of only one additional hit for two-weapon combat. In his eyes, as a 'combat class' he felt it should be closer on par to the damage done by autofire rifles; in his idea, he was willing to take a bit of a sub-par damage level for the fun of the class, but not a huge gulf. He pointed out that after you deal with soak on each blaster pistol hit, you wind up with similar damage to a single hit of a heavier rifle, and even one extra hit from autofire blew it out of the water. That autofire could keep stacking hits (contingent upon advantage) just made it far and away the better 'ranged damage class' option.

 

I can't disagree with him very much. It really seems like the things the class was built for - taking the first strike and loading up the damage - it doesn't do all that well. The extra point or two on things which haven't acted yet (assuming hits) don't quite make up for the 3-5 points of damage per hit that the heavier rifles get than most pistols. I'm still new to the meta-game side of things, but I have to wonder - is autofire just that overpowered on the heavy rifles, once your players get to rolling the handfuls of dice? Would allowing multiple hits from the two-weapon open up anything game-breaking in regards to player cheese? (thinking things like disruptor pistols, though the range band on that might mitigate significantly)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm glad to see this thread - one of my players was really digging the two-pistol gunslinger archetype until he found out the limitation of only one additional hit for two-weapon combat. In his eyes, as a 'combat class' he felt it should be closer on par to the damage done by autofire rifles; in his idea, he was willing to take a bit of a sub-par damage level for the fun of the class, but not a huge gulf. He pointed out that after you deal with soak on each blaster pistol hit, you wind up with similar damage to a single hit of a heavier rifle, and even one extra hit from autofire blew it out of the water. That autofire could keep stacking hits (contingent upon advantage) just made it far and away the better 'ranged damage class' option.

 

I can't disagree with him very much. It really seems like the things the class was built for - taking the first strike and loading up the damage - it doesn't do all that well. The extra point or two on things which haven't acted yet (assuming hits) don't quite make up for the 3-5 points of damage per hit that the heavier rifles get than most pistols. I'm still new to the meta-game side of things, but I have to wonder - is autofire just that overpowered on the heavy rifles, once your players get to rolling the handfuls of dice? Would allowing multiple hits from the two-weapon open up anything game-breaking in regards to player cheese? (thinking things like disruptor pistols, though the range band on that might mitigate significantly)

 

Sub-par damage?  There are some really nasty one hit pistols out there, but I hope the player doesn't see this game as always requiring the bigger better gun.  The opponents, challenges, and trials of the narrative should always be tailored around the player character's skills.  The bigger the guns the stronger the opposition.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm glad to see this thread - one of my players was really digging the two-pistol gunslinger archetype until he found out the limitation of only one additional hit for two-weapon combat. In his eyes, as a 'combat class' he felt it should be closer on par to the damage done by autofire rifles; in his idea, he was willing to take a bit of a sub-par damage level for the fun of the class, but not a huge gulf. He pointed out that after you deal with soak on each blaster pistol hit, you wind up with similar damage to a single hit of a heavier rifle, and even one extra hit from autofire blew it out of the water. That autofire could keep stacking hits (contingent upon advantage) just made it far and away the better 'ranged damage class' option.

 

I can't disagree with him very much. It really seems like the things the class was built for - taking the first strike and loading up the damage - it doesn't do all that well. The extra point or two on things which haven't acted yet (assuming hits) don't quite make up for the 3-5 points of damage per hit that the heavier rifles get than most pistols. I'm still new to the meta-game side of things, but I have to wonder - is autofire just that overpowered on the heavy rifles, once your players get to rolling the handfuls of dice? Would allowing multiple hits from the two-weapon open up anything game-breaking in regards to player cheese? (thinking things like disruptor pistols, though the range band on that might mitigate significantly)

 

Dual pistols are easily concealed and can be carried pretty much anywhere—cantinas, dinner parties, churches, corporate board meetings, furniture stores, etc.

 

An autofire rifle strapped to your back, even on Outer Rim planets, draws unnecessary attention unless you're in the middle of a battlefield. Don't let your players forget that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Dual pistols are easily concealed and can be carried pretty much anywhere—cantinas, dinner parties, churches, corporate board meetings, furniture stores, etc.

 

An autofire rifle strapped to your back, even on Outer Rim planets, draws unnecessary attention unless you're in the middle of a battlefield. Don't let your players forget that.

 

 

Maybe that's an issue with my particular game. They tend to look like a Hutt hit squad (Trandoshan, Human, literal murderbot), walking around a Hutt-run planet with big guns so I figured they'd just not have anyone make an issue of it. They never try to go anywhere upscale, or deliberately intimidate passsers-by, so I somewhat handwaved it. Sounds like I need to re-think that.

 

Can't figure MultiQuote out in-progress-

FangGrip: Sub-par damage?  There are some really nasty one hit pistols out there, but I hope the player doesn't see this game as always requiring the bigger better gun.  The opponents, challenges, and trials of the narrative should always be tailored around the player character's skills.  The bigger the guns the stronger the opposition.

 

It might be a player issue. If he's playing, in his words, a 'combat class' he wants the fistful of dice and the big damage dealt. Just knowing that another option is 'more optimal' it'll raise his hackles. If he's playing a social or skills character, he doesn't try for it. The group isn't much on deep, immersive roleplaying so I wind up bypassing quite a few instances where I would love to work in little scenes to bring the galaxy to life.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It might be a player issue. If he's playing, in his words, a 'combat class' he wants the fistful of dice and the big damage dealt. Just knowing that another option is 'more optimal' it'll raise his hackles.

Well, if all the players in your game insist on being the most min-maxed murder hobos in the game, then I can see that would lead to … problems.

Good luck!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Two-weapon fighting allows you to activate a secondary weapon to hit a single target.  Spitfire says that "each additional hit generated as part of the (combined) attack" can be applied to any other target within range.  Possible ways of getting additional hits:

 

  • Activating the secondary weapon. Benefit: Normally, this attack would be against the same target.  Spitfire lets you apply the secondary weapon against any other target within range.
  • Activating Autofire with the Primary or Secondary weapon. Benefit: Normally, you would need to specify which targets you were aiming at with autofire. Spitfire changes this to "any other target within range," so you don't need to declare this ahead of time. Also, when determining difficulty for autofire, you would normally need to use the most difficult target and the target with the highest defense for setting the dice pool.  With Spitfire, you would just increase difficulty by one for that weapon when determining the combined difficulty, since you no longer need to specify individual targets ahead of time.
  • Activating Linked with the Primary or Secondary weapon.  Benefit:  Normally, all Linked attacks go against the same target. With Spitfire, you can apply them to any other target within range.

So, I don't think the right question is "Is Spitfire better/worse than Autofire?"  I think the better question would be "How can I combined Spitfire with other weapon qualities to maximize its effectiveness?"

Edited by OggDude

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm still new to the meta-game side of things, but I have to wonder - is autofire just that overpowered on the heavy rifles, once your players get to rolling the handfuls of dice? Would allowing multiple hits from the two-weapon open up anything game-breaking in regards to player cheese? (thinking things like disruptor pistols, though the range band on that might mitigate significantly)

 

1) Yup

2) Nope

3) Restricted

 

Autofire (especially on the restricted heavy gunnery weapons) is very deadly in this game. Out of the big complaints/questions that pop up around here, autofire is one of the more common ones.

 

The standard social contract with players is that big guns (especially restricted ones) will have limited use due to laws or social interactions. This is the limiting factor on those weapons. If your group is Hutt hit squad, well, it's easy to throw that social contract out the window. (One of my games did this because we were Rebel commandos and were only sent on military missions so little things like laws on acquiring restricted weapons were thrown out the window.) Just keep in mind that the players are dishing out damage on the higher end of the spectrum and you'll have to work harder to challenge them in combat. Nothing wrong with this, it's just a play style.

 

IMHO: Autofire is the gold standard for damage in this game. I'm fine with giving dual weapon users everything that autofire can get. Unless devs chime in, the way I'd run Spitfire (if it came up in a game I played in) would be to allow additional shots to be purchased with additional advantages, as long as each shot targets a new target. This is to simulate action/western movie scenes where someone guns down several enemies before any of them move. This seems worth a 25 point talent. It is not worth 25 points to only allow the second pistol target a second target.

 

Edited to add:

Can't figure MultiQuote out in-progress-

 

When typing in your message, place your cursor where you want the next quote to go. Then scroll up to the next post you want to quote and select quote. The quoted section will be placed where your cursor is in the message. Also, quotes can be copied and pasted to move them around.

Edited by Jamwes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Two-weapon fighting allows you to activate a secondary weapon to hit a single target.  Spitfire says that "each additional hit generated as part of the (combined) attack" can be applied to any other target within range.  Possible ways of getting additional hits:

 

  • Activating the secondary weapon. Benefit: Normally, this attack would be against the same target.  Spitfire lets you apply the secondary weapon against any other target within range.
  • Activating Autofire with the Primary or Secondary weapon. Benefit: Normally, you would need to specify which targets you were aiming at with autofire. Spitfire changes this to "any other target within range," so you don't need to declare this ahead of time. Also, when determining difficulty for autofire, you would normally need to use the most difficult target and the target with the highest defense for setting the dice pool.  With Spitfire, you would just increase difficulty by one for that weapon when determining the combined difficulty, since you no longer need to specify individual targets ahead of time.
  • Activating Linked with the Primary or Secondary weapon.  Benefit:  Normally, all Linked attacks go against the same target. With Spitfire, you can apply them to any other target within range.

So, I don't think the right question is "Is Spitfire better/worse than Autofire?"  I think the better question would be "How can I combined Spitfire with other weapon qualities to maximize its effectiveness?"

 

First shout out to OggDude for an awesome character generator.

 

* I think we all agree with bullet one.

 

Bullet #2 makes absolute sense in the rules as written.  I still think its a little weird that spit fire lets me target the easier target and apply all those extra hits to the harder target.  GM of course will help curtail any sillyness, so /agree

 

Bullet #3 - Applying additional hits from linked weapons on different targets seems very odd...  There are some circumstances where is might make sense.  So again I think GM will help with this one also.

 

But at the end of the day what this all boils down to is:

Spitfire allows a character (who has significantly invested in this tree) to

a) Split is 1 off hand shot to another target - which could be the more difficult target - possibly removing difficulty and setback dice... This would probably be subject to DM interpretation.

 

b) Make autofire even cheesier by removing difficulty and set back as above.

 

c) Make Linked possible hit different targets assuming DM was OK with it.

 

I still think the talent is pretty underwhelming in that it doesn't really do much for the character that seems to be its intended audience.  If I had my way, Spit fire would allow an additional attack with one of the weapons for the usual cost AND allow the splitting of targets but would include the caveat (like autofire) that you pick the most difficult target.  I think this would be powerful enough to justify the cost, without completely going nuts.

 

All that said, as others have pointed out, Autofire pistols are few and far between and also restricted.  Autofire rifles are very large and obvious.  So there is still some utility in the single fire dual pistol build.

 

Since you're here OggDude, how come I cannot juryrig my autofire weapons in your builder to only cost 1 adv? 

Edited by WarrenH

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

IMHO: Autofire is the gold standard for damage in this game. I'm fine with giving dual weapon users everything that autofire can get. Unless devs chime in, the way I'd run Spitfire (if it came up in a game I played in) would be to allow additional shots to be purchased with additional advantages, as long as each shot targets a new target. This is to simulate action/western movie scenes where someone guns down several enemies before any of them move. This seems worth a 25 point talent. It is not worth 25 points to only allow the second pistol target a second target.

 

That is a pretty cool house rule.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What about Crits though. I'm away from Book and my players and I tend to avoid, for now, the auto-fire guns because of ow they stick out like a sore thumb on sneak/urban/smuggler missions, which my campaign runs. It seems to me that The gunslinger has Lethal Blows because with the tree you can throw around Crits like Crazy to kill mooks or aim for a knock out on a protected Nemesis (who is using squad rules).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are some auto-fire pistols, and there are a couple of auto-fire rifles that don’t particularly stick out too much.

 

But most of the rest do stick out like sore thumbs.  Whether that’s a problem or not depends on your game and your GM.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Linked: Allows another hit, from the activated weapon, on the SAME target.

 

Paired Weapons: Allows hits from Two Weapon Fighting to generate easier.

 

Two Weapon Fighting: Increased difficulty to allow hit from Off-Hand weapon on SAME target.

 

Autofire: Increased difficulty to allow multiple hits on the same target or additional targets within range.

 

Spitfire: Allows a Gunslinger to make Multiple Hits on the same or additional targets, based upon the number of hits generated.

 

 

So an example: A Gunslinger with Spitfire while using two Autofire Pistols that have Linked and the Paired Attachment. Lets say 2 Ability Dice and 2 Proficiency Dice at Short Range. (or 2 Green, 2 Yellow, 2 Purple)

 

Gathers the 2G2Y2P pool, then adds 1 Purple for Two Weapon Fighting (not taking into account other talents here). (Pool: 2G2Y3P).

Then adds Autofire difficulty to pool, which is 1 Purple for each gun, so 2 Purple added. (Pool: 2G2Y5P)

Let's be nice and say 1 Success and 3 Advantage.

 

The 3 Advantage now has to be split between Autofire, Paired (Two Weapon Fighting), and Linked.

1 Advantage on Paired: Allows the Gunslinger to hit with the Off Hand Weapon, and that hit can be on the Same or Different Target due to Spitfire.

2 Advantage on Linked: Additional Hit with Linked Weapon on ONE of the Targets (or if one target, three hits).

 

 

Spitfire merely allows one to utilize Autofire like ability with 2 Ranged Light weapons without Autofire. This all requires a lot of Advantages to utilize to scary levels.

Edited by ApocalypseZero

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I tend to agree with your assessment apocalypse, but the length of this thread makes me think that the talent is vague enough that having a dev weigh in on it would be helpful.

I don't even know how to do that, usually they just seem to step in if folks seem confused enough.. like magic, or the force, or something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I tend to agree with your assessment apocalypse, but the length of this thread makes me think that the talent is vague enough that having a dev weigh in on it would be helpful.

I don't even know how to do that, usually they just seem to step in if folks seem confused enough.. like magic, or the force, or something.

See the thread at https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/108101-ffg-developer-answered-questions/page-7#entry1738858

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Linked: Allows another hit, from the activated weapon, on the SAME target.

 

Paired Weapons: Allows hits from Two Weapon Fighting to generate easier.

 

Two Weapon Fighting: Increased difficulty to allow hit from Off-Hand weapon on SAME target.

 

Autofire: Increased difficulty to allow multiple hits on the same target or additional targets within range.

 

Spitfire: Allows a Gunslinger to make Multiple Hits on the same or additional targets, based upon the number of hits generated.

 

 

So an example: A Gunslinger with Spitfire while using two Autofire Pistols that have Linked and the Paired Attachment. Lets say 2 Ability Dice and 2 Proficiency Dice at Short Range. (or 2 Green, 2 Yellow, 2 Purple)

 

Gathers the 2G2Y2P pool, then adds 1 Purple for Two Weapon Fighting (not taking into account other talents here). (Pool: 2G2Y3P).

Then adds Autofire difficulty to pool, which is 1 Purple for each gun, so 2 Purple added. (Pool: 2G2Y5P)

Let's be nice and say 1 Success and 3 Advantage.

 

The 3 Advantage now has to be split between Autofire, Paired (Two Weapon Fighting), and Linked.

1 Advantage on Paired: Allows the Gunslinger to hit with the Off Hand Weapon, and that hit can be on the Same or Different Target due to Spitfire.

2 Advantage on Linked: Additional Hit with Linked Weapon on ONE of the Targets (or if one target, three hits).

 

 

Spitfire merely allows one to utilize Autofire like ability with 2 Ranged Light weapons without Autofire. This all requires a lot of Advantages to utilize to scary levels.

 

I think you nailed it.  Thanks for the summary.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I tend to agree with your assessment apocalypse, but the length of this thread makes me think that the talent is vague enough that having a dev weigh in on it would be helpful.

I don't even know how to do that, usually they just seem to step in if folks seem confused enough.. like magic, or the force, or something.

See the thread at https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/108101-ffg-developer-answered-questions/page-7#entry1738858

 

That's a might long thread, and I'm not seeing  Spit Fire mentioned on the page you linked.  I even did a search for the word Spit.   Can you pin the location down a bit more for me.  (Note:  I'm visually impaired so fully capable of missing something right in front of me.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The "each additional hit" part seems to be the biggest point of confusion. "Each" implies there is potentially more than one additional hit, however with dual-wielding that isn't the case. Narratively, dual-wielding allows for two weapons to strike, but it's still one hit, mechanically. I feel that's an important distinction in the discussion of "hits", making it even murkier.

If we assume "hit" means "success", then the word "additional" becomes problematic, as in an attack all successes count. Perhaps it should be worded, "each success"? Even so, I'm not sure causing "free damage" based on successes alone is worth all that much. You'd need to roll 6 successes to even harm a stormtrooper, which is a rather substantial amount of successes to be rolled.

.

Edited by Alderaan Crumbs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder if the 'each additional hit' language that people are finding wonky is taking into consideration a case where a character is dual-wielding pistols that have auto-fire (like the IR-5 or the SE-14r)?

I forget, but are either of those weapons in Fly Casual? If not, that's a poor reason for such confusing text, even with the assumption of full compatibility between books. It would suggest that such weapons are all-but-needed to make the talent useful, which severely limits which weapons a Gunslinger can choose from.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The "each additional hit" part seems to be the biggest point of confusion. "Each" implies there is potentially more than one additional hit, however with dual-wielding that isn't the case. Narratively, dual-wielding allows for two weapons to strike, but it's still one hit, mechanically. I feel that's an important distinction in the discussion of "hits", making it even murkier.

If we assume "hit" means "success", then the word "additional" becomes problematic, as in an attack all successes count. Perhaps it should be worded, "each success"? Even so, I'm not sure causing "free damage" based on successes alone is worth all that much. You'd need to roll 6 successes to even harm a stormtrooper, which is a rather substantial amount of successes to be rolled.

.

It's one roll, but potentially two hits.  You spend two advantage to hit with the secondary weapon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The "each additional hit" part seems to be the biggest point of confusion. "Each" implies there is potentially more than one additional hit, however with dual-wielding that isn't the case. Narratively, dual-wielding allows for two weapons to strike, but it's still one hit, mechanically. I feel that's an important distinction in the discussion of "hits", making it even murkier.

If we assume "hit" means "success", then the word "additional" becomes problematic, as in an attack all successes count. Perhaps it should be worded, "each success"? Even so, I'm not sure causing "free damage" based on successes alone is worth all that much. You'd need to roll 6 successes to even harm a stormtrooper, which is a rather substantial amount of successes to be rolled.

.

 

The text seems pretty clear to me.

 

Per EotE pg 210, "To make the attack, he performs a combined check."

 

The procedure for assembling the dice pool continues to refer to this as a check. All attacks are some form of skill check. The result of of the skill check determines how many hits. Furthermore, since the attack is a skill check, that means there is only one target.

 

The end of the second paragraph says, "Finally, he determines his target." This is completely unambiguous.

 

The final paragraph in the Two-Weapon Combat section begins, "If he succeeds, he hits with his primary weapon as normal. He may also spend AD AD or TR to hit with his secondary weapon as well."

 

There's no assuming about what the terminology means. You make a single check as described. Success means you hit with the weapon you declared is primary. Then you can spend advantage/triumph to cause your secondary weapon to hit. Net successes increase damage for both hits.

 

Two-weapon combat, with no fanciness added, is against one single target. There is literally no reason to think otherwise. And that is where Spitfire's functionality comes in. You follow the same procedure I said above, but with the following added to it: "You may allocate the hit from your secondary weapon to any target within range."

 

So if you succeed your combat check, and have enough advantage and triumph to activate a second hit, you can deal damage to two targets. If you modified the initial check to activate autofire, and/or you have linked, then each additional hit can therefore be applied to an additional target.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That's a might long thread, and I'm not seeing  Spit Fire mentioned on the page you linked.  I even did a search for the word Spit.   Can you pin the location down a bit more for me.  (Note:  I'm visually impaired so fully capable of missing something right in front of me.)

The post I linked to tells you how to send questions to the developers, and therefore isn’t specific to the issue of a particular talent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...