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WarrenH

Spitfire Talent

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So either I can't get the rules question form to submit or I submitted this question 7 times.

 

So I thought I'd ask my peers on the forums.

 

Spitfire Talent from Fly Casual:

As written is seems that all Spitfire lets you do is target two different people with one attack each when using two weapon fighting.  This seems pretty underwhelming for a 25 point talent.

Am I correct that two weapon fighting only allows for 1 secondary attack at most?  

If so then it really seems like Spitfire should allow you to make additional attacks(beyond the first "offhand") with either weapon for the normal 2 advantage each.  Essentially allowing a high end gunslinger to gain "autofire" when dual wielding pistols.

It would be hard to say this was broken since an autofire ranged light weapon already exists.

An alternative that several of my players suggested was the wording of Spitfire was intended to be that each additional success could be used as an additional hit on a new target instead of additional damage on existing targets.  This reading would also work pretty well and doesn't seem broken compared to existing Autofire (particularly with jury-rigged)

Any confirmation you could provide would be great.  Any insight into the thoughts behind the desired difference in strength between dual wield and autofire would also be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

-Warren

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from my understanding of two weapon fighting it is similar to a linked ability.  You can only choose one target, but have the chance to hit with both weapons.

 

Spitfire allows you to hit another target.  Now granted I hope that when someone gets up to that point in their talent tree they are rolling 4 or 5 dice with 3 being yellow.  So they could be knocking down mooks with every roll.  By having spitfire they can hit two targets a turn instead of just one.  Having the paired weapon modification would mean you could almost guarantee hitting with both weapons every time.

 

More options, more flexibility.  I am not going to go through the whole book and "rank" each talent on which tree has a it cost the least, or argue that it is too low or too high of an XP cost.  That way leads to the dark side of min/maxing

 

There are not many ranged (Light) weapons with auto-fire. and you would still need at least 2 advantage to activate it.. instead of one with a 300 credit "Paired" mod

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Now what happens when you combine Spitfire with a weapon like HH-50 Heavy Blaster Pistol (which has Linked) or the IR-5 (which has Auto-Fire on a Ranged Light weapon)?

So here are some examples:

Using one auto fire blaster pistol

* difficulty +1 one hit plus one per every two advantage ( or per one advantage with jury rigged)

* can hit as many targets as you like

Using two "normal pistols" (assume you go all the way down gunslinger)

* difficulty +0 one hit plus max of one more for two advantage ( or one advantage with paired mods)

Using two linked pistols (again with gunslinger)

* difficulty + 0, 1 hit with first gun plus 1 hit with second gun for two advantage (1 with paired) each gun can get a second hit for 2 advantage due to linked. Maximum possible of four hits on one target or two on two targets. (This costs at best 5 advantage)

There would be no advantages gained to using two autofire pistols.

To summarize let's assume you roll net success and 4 net advantage

Autofire would be 5 hits ( because of course you just rigged it)

Dual linked would be main hand, plus off hand, plus one linked activation with one adv to spare

Two normal pistols would be two hits with three advantage to spare.

Clearly the autofire pistol is doing the most hits, though it is at + 1 difficulty.

My biggest problem is that all the autofiring character needs is one rank of jury rigged to hit that many times. Our gunslinger has to get to the bottom of the tree to hit more than one target.

Second biggest problem is after investing a ton of points into talents for two weapon fighting, our gunslinger would stop using it immediately upon gaining access to an autofire pistol.

Edited by WarrenH

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I'm not saying everything needs to be as good as auto fire. Or that autofire is sane (it's not imho) but spitfire as currently worded really just does some that most DMs would read in anyway. Seeing as dual weapons could be a sword and a pistol most people I have played with assumed you could target two different targets just by two weapon fighting.

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..Second biggest problem is after investing a ton of points into talents for two weapon fighting, our gunslinger would stop using it immediately upon gaining access to an autofire pistol...

 

 

I'm still waiting on my copy of Fly Casual, but to me, it sounds like they are just trying to make the two weapon combat a little better for those that like it for thematic reasons.  To avoid the difficulty increase, a PC with two weapons must still suffer strain with the Gunblazing talent. 

 

It's true that the gadgeteer with Point Blank, Deadly Accuracy, Jury-Rigged, and Spare Clip can put out a decent amounts of hits and damage with an SE-14r (avaible in DC).  Weapons like the SE-14r have been available for a long time now, but I know several PCs in our group who still prefer two blasters.  Why? They could be so much more effective.

 

They do it because they enjoy the style and theme for their characters, and I applaud their commitment to character (by that I mean the story element, not game mechanic).

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But no one is gonna stop you coming into a bar when your wielding......

 

Big Bertha-Heavy Blaster Rifle

 

All Gadgeteer talents to the rifle.

 

Augmented Spin Barrel

Superior

Spread Barrel

Jury Rigged- Dmg

 

Max ranks in Ranged (Heavy)

 

First shot does base 21 dmg in short range.  Activate 1st auto fire for 1 advantage for another base 15 dmg. Activate again for 2 advantage for another 15. etc etc.  Take out vehicles and stuff!!!  Why did i add the Blast Barrel?  Slay formations of storm troopers by the score! Huzzah!

 

**Note-I don't use this.  Totally broken.

Edited by vivenvex

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But no one is gonna stop you coming into a bar when your wielding......

 

Big Bertha-Heavy Blaster Rifle

 

All Gadgeteer talents to the rifle.

 

Augmented Spin Barrel

Superior

Spread Barrel

Jury Rigged- Dmg

 

Max ranks in Ranged (Heavy)

 

First shot does base 21 dmg in short range.  Activate 1st auto fire for 1 advantage for another base 15 dmg. Activate again for 2 advantage for another 15. etc etc.  Take out vehicles and stuff!!!  Why did i add the Blast Barrel?  Slay formations of storm troopers by the score! Huzzah!

 

**Note-I don't use this.  Totally broken.

Yeah, it probably should be pointed at more vehicles than personal!

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Yeah our games have an unspoken rule about arms escalation. I don't have to tell the players no crazy autofire cheese because they know the threats have to scale with them.

Also I don't think you can have a spread barrel and a spin barrel. And if cheese is your goal you should juryrig to reduce cost of autofire to 1.

But to be clear I'm not talking about (or concerned with) comparing two pistols to a heavy rifle. The pistols advantage of being able to go anywhere is huge. I'm comparing only ranged light weapons and discussing how valuable (or not) spitfire is.

Edited by WarrenH

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...And if cheese is your goal you should juryrig to reduce cost of autofire to 1...

 

But I have a jury-rigged SE-14r with a blaster actuating module as a primary weapon...

 

Should have been more clear, that was directed at the heavy blaster rifle build that was using juryrigged for damage.

 

I've been reflecting on Gunslinger more, and I'm thinking the idea here is critting multiple targets.  Putting together some tests to see.

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Yeah I'm genning up a character who uses two pistols and for heaver targets a bowcaster, added the attachment+mod that gives it auto-fire, just can't bring myself to add Jury-Rigged as well. I want to be good at shooting, the bowcaster is more for hordes of foes or big beasts versus just a normal encounter, and I don't want to completely steal the combat show from the sniper with the E-11 or the Selonian with her glaive.

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...And if cheese is your goal you should juryrig to reduce cost of autofire to 1...

 

But I have a jury-rigged SE-14r with a blaster actuating module as a primary weapon...

 

Should have been more clear, that was directed at the heavy blaster rifle build that was using juryrigged for damage.

 

I've been reflecting on Gunslinger more, and I'm thinking the idea here is critting multiple targets.  Putting together some tests to see.

 

 

Don't worry. You didn't hurt my feelings or anything.  They need a "sarcastic poopy lip" emoticon!

 

It's a little cheesy, especially since I am playing an astromech!  It's on his "shoulder," and he doesn't really have the skill to get crazy-deadly with the thing.  It's mainly for when he's trapped, when there's no terminal to hack, or when there's no way to use his Bad Motivator talent.

 

I am getting out of the house to go check the FLGS to see if it's in stock.

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As written is seems that all Spitfire lets you do is target two different people with one attack each when using two weapon fighting.  This seems pretty underwhelming for a 25 point talent.

 

That's how my group already plays two weapon fighting... You declare your target(s) and which weapon is shooting which target before you roll. The target with the hardest difficulty is the first shot. The second target is hit if two advantages are rolled. IIRC, nothing in the rules says that the second target MUST be the same as the first target.

 

 

Am I correct that two weapon fighting only allows for 1 secondary attack at most? 

 

Each weapon can only attack one target, unless the weapon has special rules such as auto-fire. So, for most pistols that you are two weapon fighting with, yes you only get 1 extra secondary attack by holding a second gun.

 

 

If so then it really seems like Spitfire should allow you to make additional attacks(beyond the first "offhand") with either weapon for the normal 2 advantage each.  Essentially allowing a high end gunslinger to gain "autofire" when dual wielding pistols.

It would be hard to say this was broken since an autofire ranged light weapon already exists.

An alternative that several of my players suggested was the wording of Spitfire was intended to be that each additional success could be used as an additional hit on a new target instead of additional damage on existing targets.  This reading would also work pretty well and doesn't seem broken compared to existing Autofire (particularly with jury-rigged)

 

I would like to think that for a 25 point talent that it's letting you buy extra attacks beyond what you can normally do. I like limiting it to one extra attack per target. Fighting a squad of Stormtroopers? Shoot them all down. Fighting a single Rancor? Good luck with that.

 

As this is a new talent from a new book, would it be possible to post the long and short versions of the rules from the book so that we can get a better idea of what it's all about?

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As written is seems that all Spitfire lets you do is target two different people with one attack each when using two weapon fighting.  This seems pretty underwhelming for a 25 point talent.

 

That's how my group already plays two weapon fighting... You declare your target(s) and which weapon is shooting which target before you roll. The target with the hardest difficulty is the first shot. The second target is hit if two advantages are rolled. IIRC, nothing in the rules says that the second target MUST be the same as the first target.

 

 

I would like to think that for a 25 point talent that it's letting you buy extra attacks beyond what you can normally do. I like limiting it to one extra attack per target. Fighting a squad of Stormtroopers? Shoot them all down. Fighting a single Rancor? Good luck with that.

 

As this is a new talent from a new book, would it be possible to post the long and short versions of the rules from the book so that we can get a better idea of what it's all about?

 

 

So on two weapon fighting Edge pg 210

 

(Determine skills abilities etc) ... Finally, he determines his target [notice no plural]

 

Contrast this to the similar (but not the same) Autofire rules pg 155, which has specific rules for deciding to hit multiple targets and having to target the most difficult one first.

 

I think most of us, myself certainly included, read the autofire rules on multiple targets into the two weapon fighting.

 

Spitfire says (and this is the long version)

 

"After the character makes a successful combined check with two ranged light weapons, each additional hit generated as part of the attack can be allocated to any other target with in range of the weapon."

 

So first my interpretation of RAW

1) Spitfire simply allows us to do what we already thought we could.

2) Interestingly enough, there is nothing about having to target the most difficult target with the primary shot.  So in theory I could target the stormtrooper and trigger the extra hit against Vader.  As a GM I would not allow this but hey, its RAW.

3) It seems from the wording "each additional hit generated" (instead of something like, "the additional hit") they are leaving it open to apply to some other talent that allowed additional attacks.

 

Some Thoughts:

* At some point maybe they considered a talent that allowed additional offhand attacks.  As opined above, it wouldn't be any worse than autofire and would have a significantly higher buy it. 

* I toyed with the idea that the talent might have meant to be worded at each additional success could be applied as another hit (instead of additional damage) but this really doesn't match with the wording.

 

Taken all together, the gunslinger is a pretty sweet class, the balance of focus between multiple hits and powerful crits is interesting.  Spitfire seems drastically overpriced, especially considering as far as I can tell there is no provision to ever get more than one additional hit.

 

One other little gripe - Paired, the new mod option which must be applied to two pistols and reduces the cost to activate the second hit in two weapon fighting seemed good at first.  But you could easily take the laser sight and or superior which gives you advantage which has the same net effect, is more flexible, and must only be applied to one weapon.

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In my game, I was already house-ruling that multiple targets were okay for two-weapon fighting.  I was dreading that Gunslinger would have a Talent that allowed for multiple targets, and there it is.  Spitfire seems expensive for what it does and that it is a Talent only available (so far) once in all the Specializations we have.

 

So without having received my copy of Fly Casual yet, I am still considering what house rule change to Spitfire I'll make because I do want characters with multiple weapons to be able to hit multiple targets without having to pick up a (rare and spendy)Talent for it.

 

But I think that's minor. I've been looking forward to the Gunslinger Spec, and I'm sure I'll be really happy with it otherwise.

 

I think my book arrives in the mail tomorrow...

Edited by RLogue177

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So on two weapon fighting Edge pg 210

 

(Determine skills abilities etc) ... Finally, he determines his target [notice no plural]

 

Contrast this to the similar (but not the same) Autofire rules pg 155, which has specific rules for deciding to hit multiple targets and having to target the most difficult one first.

 

I think most of us, myself certainly included, read the autofire rules on multiple targets into the two weapon fighting.

 

Thank you so much on posting the rules for this discussion. I bet you're right, we all read the autofire rules and mentally copied them over to two weapon fighting. I always read it as "he determines his target" for each attack/hit.

 

This description makes me ask, there are no rules for two weapon fighting for having to target the most difficult one first? What about when you are using two different weapons? Ranged light will not have the same difficulty as a melee attack, correct?

 

 

Spitfire says (and this is the long version)

 

"After the character makes a successful combined check with two ranged light weapons, each additional hit generated as part of the attack can be allocated to any other target with in range of the weapon."

 

So first my interpretation of RAW

1) Spitfire simply allows us to do what we already thought we could.

2) Interestingly enough, there is nothing about having to target the most difficult target with the primary shot.  So in theory I could target the stormtrooper and trigger the extra hit against Vader.  As a GM I would not allow this but hey, its RAW.

3) It seems from the wording "each additional hit generated" (instead of something like, "the additional hit") they are leaving it open to apply to some other talent that allowed additional attacks.

 

Some Thoughts:

* At some point maybe they considered a talent that allowed additional offhand attacks.  As opined above, it wouldn't be any worse than autofire and would have a significantly higher buy it. 

* I toyed with the idea that the talent might have meant to be worded at each additional success could be applied as another hit (instead of additional damage) but this really doesn't match with the wording.

 

Wow... As written this talent is a mess of questions. What is a "successful combined check"? Is it when just the first shot hits or is it when the second shot hits? When do you roll damage? What does "each additional hit" mean? Is that the second attack? If the second attack is part of the "successful combined check", then would that mean that this talent gives provisions to generate extra attacks with the "each additional hit" language?

 

Note that the talent says "two ranged light weapons". This means that a four armed individual can't generate a bunch of extra hits by holding four weapons. As written, since it doesn't explicitly say you can generate extra hits, the only benefit is to hit two targets instead of one twice.

 

My responses your interpretations:

1) Is two weapon fighting written as intended in the core book? Were we reading it wrong? Why the subtle difference with autofire?

2) I agree, this seems weird.

3) I doubt that level of forward thinking. They aren't leaving it open for a four armed guy holding four guns.

 

IMHO, I think the wording allows for extra hits beyond the second one. Two weapon fighting will never be as good as autofire (based upon pure damage output) based on the fact that most autofire weapons do more damage. Without a FAQ to clarify, I think that's how my group will play it. For 25 points you can keep buying extra hits beyond the normal two, but each additional must be on a new target.

 

Anyone with the book want to send a question in to the developers on this one? I'd do it, but I don't own the book and would be basing my question on what I've read here.

 

Edited to add:

One other little gripe - Paired, the new mod option which must be applied to two pistols and reduces the cost to activate the second hit in two weapon fighting seemed good at first.  But you could easily take the laser sight and or superior which gives you advantage which has the same net effect, is more flexible, and must only be applied to one weapon.

 

At least Paired is cheaper than the laser sight, and doesn't give the red dot to trace back to stealthy shooters. Save a couple hundred credits and spend an extra HP for the same effect. In a different thread I complained that Paired looked like power creep. Now I'm thinking that it's on par with the laser sight (cost vs HP tradeoff) but I still think both are much better when compared to the cost and benefits received from Superior.

Edited by Jamwes

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How my PC uses 2 wpns, is that the Primary is my 'Equalizer' w/ a Bantha Eye on it.   And since the Equalizer is already Superior I get 2 ADV already when I use it as my primary.  So more times than not I am rolling 4Y2P in my dice pool.  When I get my last rank I will have 4Y1G.  On my damage "off hand" weapon I have a Bantha Eye & BAM on it.  I am still debating to put Superior on that one, or just buy a different weapon that will do more damage and add superior & bantha eye & now this paired thing (How much is that anyway?).  That is if I have the HPs for it.

 

My PC is the only guy who uses 2 wpns in my group and IT IS FUN!!  When I do the John Woo Maneuver, I PWN!

 

As to the multi-person hits thing?  I have argued w/ my GM about being able to hit 2 different targets because in the RAW there isnt anything that says you cannot.  But now w/ this new talent maybe that was implied in the RAW that you are to hit only 1 target? 

 

I look fwd to finding out a definitive answer on this.

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I wonder if the 'each additional hit' language that people are finding wonky is taking into consideration a case where a character is dual-wielding pistols that have auto-fire (like the IR-5 or the SE-14r)?

 

That's a thought. Too bad there is no mechanical benefit for dual wielding autofire pistols and autofire already lets you target multiple targets. In fact, it's noting but a detriment since you'll be upgrading the attack twice, once for two weapons and once for autofire.

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I wonder if the 'each additional hit' language that people are finding wonky is taking into consideration a case where a character is dual-wielding pistols that have auto-fire (like the IR-5 or the SE-14r)?

Autofire already lets you target additional targets so it would be of limited benefit. I could see an autofire pistol in your main hand with a higher damage or better crit pistol in your offhand (to have one offhand shot and a spray of fire from main hand). There no mechanical benefit to dual autofire pistols though it looks cool :)

The wording of spitfire "additional hits" as well as the paired mod both make me think that somehow at some point the intent was to have more than one off hand shot possible.

Before you ask, why paired? Paired costs two hard points and allows you to reduce the advantage cost for offhand by one. It effectively grants 1 advantage since as far as we know there's just the one offhand hit possible. The sight which is only on hard point also grants one advantage. Paired is not a great mod compared to the site. Now if additional offhand attacks were possible paired would be much better as it would potentially make several shots 1 advantage less.

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"After the character makes a successful combined check with two ranged light weapons, each additional hit generated as part of the attack can be allocated to any other target with in range of the weapon."

If you take the bolded parts and look closely, it seems to me that you can hit one target for each additional hit you generate.

Generate 1 additional hit? Hit one additional target.

Generate 3 additional hits? Hit three different targets in range once.

Generate 10 additional hits? Hit five different targets twice each.

This to me seems like it would justify the 25 XP cost and truly make it a talent worthy of a gunslinger.

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