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RebelDave

Modifying Attachments

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The rule reads "Each additional mod installed in an attachment beyond the first increases the difficulty of the Mechanics check by one and costs an additional 100 credits beyond the base cost."

 

Nothing in the RAW says cumulative, the first mod would be a Hard 3 purple check and any subsequent check 2+ would be made at 4 purples.  If you fail on the mechanics check that particular modification can never be made to the attachment.

 

And changing a purple to a red via a dark side Destiny Point could incur the Despair.

Hey, the way you put it here, that actually makes sense to me now, I hope you're correct on this one and we find a clarification from the developer to match

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The rule reads "Each additional mod installed in an attachment beyond the first increases the difficulty of the Mechanics check by one and costs an additional 100 credits beyond the base cost."

 

Nothing in the RAW says cumulative, the first mod would be a Hard 3 purple check and any subsequent check 2+ would be made at 4 purples.  If you fail on the mechanics check that particular modification can never be made to the attachment.

 

And changing a purple to a red via a dark side Destiny Point could incur the Despair.

Hey, the way you put it here, that actually makes sense to me now, I hope you're correct on this one and we find a clarification from the developer to match

 

 

I dunno, that "each additional mod" seems to imply cumulative at the very least.  Your idea is simpler, but I would get clarification directly from customer service.

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The rule reads "Each additional mod installed in an attachment beyond the first increases the difficulty of the Mechanics check by one and costs an additional 100 credits beyond the base cost."

 

Nothing in the RAW says cumulative, the first mod would be a Hard 3 purple check and any subsequent check 2+ would be made at 4 purples.  If you fail on the mechanics check that particular modification can never be made to the attachment.

 

And changing a purple to a red via a dark side Destiny Point could incur the Despair.

 

It seems like if they intended it to work that way, then they would word it more like, "Any additional mods installed in an attachment beyond the first increases the difficulty of the Mechanics check by one and costs an additional 100 credits beyond the base cost." Either that or just say that the difficulty is Hard in those cases. Saying "each" implies that it is cumulative. 

 

It also doesn't make much sense from a design point of view.The first mod is easy, but then additional ones are all equally just a little harder and more expensive. What would the intent be there?  Is there a reason the first mod is cheaper and easier than all the rest? Why not just make them all Hard difficulty and cost 200cr?

 

They way it works now, each one makes the next more difficult and controls how many mods an attachment has. The system also rewards truly skilled mechanics more than moderately skilled ones.

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Each additional would be cumulative if it said "Each additional mod installed in an attachment beyond the first increases the difficulty of the Mechanics check by one(from the previous difficulty) and costs and additional 100 credits beyond the base cost (or insert cumulatively/progressively/sequentially)."

 

The reason its not culumlative is because it told you right there in the rule increase each additional one from the base difficulty and base cost, it did not says from the last check, or from the previous difficulty, it said each check after the first check is 1 difficulty harder and costs you 100 more credits.

Edited by Greymere

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I think Doc probably has the right of it as intended I just wish the rules for increasing the difficultly clearly spelled out where increasing difficulty ends and upgrading difficulty begins, otherwise from a design standpoint modifying an Ilum crystal to create a EotE Lightsaber is deemed an impossible task not once but on at least 4 checks for even the best Artisan Jedi working on his own saber which seems like poor design mechanics if the upgraded version is the implied base item found within the other two systems.  It also means working with any kyber crystal that isn't an Ilum crystal is by far preferable.

 

Creating a modification system that essentially becomes impossible after the 3rd modification and then offering more than 3 modifications on a number of attachments is poor game mechanic design without spelling out how it is resolved beyond that point.

 

Are there any modifications that have more than 3 levels of the same modification?  It may simply be there for more personalization, and less about collecting them all.

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Each doesn't make it cumulative, particularly since the baseline they refer each additional too is the original base cost and difficulty and not the "last or previous cost and difficulty"

 

Also the terms subsequent, sequential, progressive and cumulative or any other values that would point towards adding the last checks value beyond adding to the original checks value is ever offered RAW, this along with the fact that I can't see the game designers making a system that creates impossible checks the standard is why I think RAW its written this way and that players made assumptions that it is intended to be cumulative, despite the rule not saying as much

 

A moderately skilled mechanic isn't going to pass 4 or more mechanics checks at a 4 difficulty, an expert would, and likely should for how they invested their points.

 

Even a 3 Skill Mechanic has a good potential to fail making a check with 4 Purple Difficulty, as none of the Talents offer a reduced difficulty to the Mechanics checks apart from removing Setbacks or a once per session reroll at the bottom of the Mechanics tree for the master mechanics.  The penalty for failure being the inability to every roll to further apply that particular mod to that attachment in the future is already a built in realistic penalty.

 

I wouldn't describe someone trained at 4-5 in Mechanics with a 4-5 in Intellect has moderately trained and those players I would expect to make successful checks at 4 difficulty, but even they could potentially fail. Take a Lightsaber Hilt 300 Credits + Ilum Crystal 9000 Credits + 7 mods 700 Credits(100 for the first+ 100 for each additional mod) that's funny it equals 10,000 credits which is the listed cost for the exact same saber in the two previous books. 

Edited by Greymere

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Well, I have asked the question, and posed both points of view in the question.

 

Ive also asked for clarification on when the Red dice is intended to be used in this situation.

 

Until I get a reply, its all speculation and opinion, and assuming I do get a reply, its still up to you all what to make of it :)

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The rule reads "Each additional mod installed in an attachment beyond the first increases the difficulty of the Mechanics check by one and costs an additional 100 credits beyond the base cost."

 

Nothing in the RAW says cumulative, the first mod would be a Hard 3 purple check and any subsequent check 2+ would be made at 4 purples.  If you fail on the mechanics check that particular modification can never be made to the attachment.

 

I disagree. 'Each additional mod...beyond the first increases the difficulty of the Mechanics check by one.'  The first mod is hard. Each additional mod increases it by one.  While the word cumulative is not in the sentence, I believe it is cumulative (Hard to Daunting to Formidable, etc.).  I think they would have wrote in plain English that all subsequent mods are a Daunting check if that was what was intended.

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that's just it absent a value identifying the increase as a cumulative increase in plain English the increase is not cumulative. The only value you are told to ever increase each roll beyond the first original difficulty of 3 Hard Difficulty by one.  It never says each additional difficulty is harder than the previous roll just that each roll after the first roll is harder than the first roll.

 

All it would take to make the rule cumulative would be to say you increase the difficulty from the previous check or that the difficulty is progressively more difficult or that the increases are cumulative, but as it never says that, it is not RAW. Everyone implies that's what it means, that's an assumption, not what is written.

 

Most of the confusion of this stems from earlier players inserting the term previous rolls or the previous cost into the wording of the rule, even though it is never listed as such in any of the Core books,  You can even find this mistaken wording in the player provided FAQ on the topic for example where he uses the term previous where it never exists rather than offering the rule as written in his example.

Edited by Greymere

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The "5 Quality (Limited Ammo +1) Mods" on the Under-barrel Grenade Launcher also helps in that if you fail one, you can no longer try to install that mod but have 4 more chances to get it right.

The developers did come back and say that if you failed one particular mod, then that only affects that one mod and not any other mods that would otherwise be identical.

So, yes — you do get four more chances, but you are permanently down one shot from where you could potentially have been — assuming you don’t fail any of the other rolls.

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I'm going to have to agree with Domingo here on the cumulative increasing difficulty per mod in that if the intent was to simply make all mods after the first hard then they would have simply said "all mods after the first are difficulty 3 hard". No where else in the book (or the expansions/adventures) that I'm aware of does it ever do otherwise, they're always very clear when there's a set difficulty to say exactly what it is. Instead the clear lack of a specific difficulty suggests that it's variable based on which mod after the first it is.

Though I will admit I was ignorant before that increasing the difficulty of a check past 5 made it no longer useable. I must have read it and then promptly forgot once we started running the game. Rather I had mistaken the ruling that talked about "upgrades" carrying over into increases if there where no more dice to upgrade to work the same ie if the number was max that it would instead be upgraded. (I was mistaken of course).

Edited by Dark Bunny Lord

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And if their intent was to make it cumulative all they had to say was increase the difficulty on each subsequent check, or the difficulty increases from the previous amount, or the difficulty and credit cost is cumulative, or each successive mod becomes progressively harder after the first, or increase the difficulty by one for each mod previously installed, or sequentially like they already do for skills in relation to XP costs, they spell out pretty clear when a cost has a multiplier to it elsewhere in the rules yet don't here, it thus far has only been players that came to the assumption it is cumulative despite the language not saying that.

 

Hey its your game house rule all you want my point was only the rule no where says cumulative and when you recognize the coincidence of the cost of a fully upgraded Ilum saber having the exact same cost as the sabers presented in both Core rulebooks it starts make more sense.  And it eliminates the need to invent custom house rules that says the 4th Mod and successive mods are impossible now what do I do, well I make up my own rule and convert purple dice to red and make players spend Destiny points to even make the attempt never mind that it hardly meets the narrative requirements of the sidebar for doing so, another player made house rule because they couldn't explain how the rule would be handled otherwise beyond outright forbidding more than 3 Mods.  RAW it doesn't say its cumulative that's an assumption of the players that want it to be so its not what it says in plain English, if you have to dice the word apart to make it so or insert terms like previous into it you are already house ruling it.

 

Balance wise multiple Formidable 4 purple difficulty rolls per mod you want to add is plenty formidable as only a skilled mechanic or for a chance to reroll a Natural Tinkerer is likely avoid at least 1 failure, which would be appropriate for someone rolling an equal number of Skill and proficiency dice having spent close to 200+ XP in a Mechanic specialization at that point.

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Without clarification from Sam, I don’t think we’re going to resolve this issue.

Once we do get clarification, I’m willing to bet that most of the people who disagree with Sam will decide to do a house rule that corresponds to the way they’re currently doing it.

So, I don’t see a whole lot of change likely to happen regardless of what Sam says.

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Without clarification from Sam, I don’t think we’re going to resolve this issue.

Once we do get clarification, I’m willing to bet that most of the people who disagree with Sam will decide to do a house rule that corresponds to the way they’re currently doing it.

So, I don’t see a whole lot of change likely to happen regardless of what Sam says.

 

It will be nice to see  a RAI answer though. i am wondering if this will be a lot clearer when the Tech book comes out some time this year (I hope they at least clarify it). 

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Still waiting for a reply, I PMed Sam Stewart about it today as well.

 

Anyone know the average turnaround time on things like this?

I wouldn't expect anything back before next week, I'm not sure they're in the office on weekends.

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Still waiting for a reply, I PMed Sam Stewart about it today as well.

 

Anyone know the average turnaround time on things like this?

Sometimes it takes him a few days, and other times it takes him a month or two.

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