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On 8/3/2018 at 1:50 PM, Eoen said:

I looked around the internet and almost everyone disagrees with you from YouTube to websites, I’m going with their nerd credentials over yours. 

like this video 

 

 

And I am going by what the actual articles state, not how anothe rfan may or may not interpret them. 

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On 8/3/2018 at 9:54 AM, EliasWindrider said:

 

 

Since main characters get more screen time the archetypal movie jedi naturally skews more towards main characters than background characters, and a build roughly comparable to Obiwan or Anakin as of episode 2 is what I was shooting for, I do think the builds come up a little short of that but yeah I do  "plead guilty" of subscribing to the philosophy that PCs should be the main characters of the campaign they're playing in rather than play bit parts compared to cannon characters.  So yes I most certainly believe that PCs by virtue of being PCs should be better than "typical" NPCs having the same in universe job description, and I'm somewhat surprised that you don't.

But that sounds very much like you admitting that the niman-disciple/sentry build is more broadly capable a.k.a. more efficient than what you just proposed ? do you care to concede now or leave it to a forum member vote

By the way off the top of my head (before I put this in the ogg dude generator to make comparisons easier), shien expert is in the sentinel career, and seer is in the mystic career, which means it costs 30 xp rather than 20 xp so you would  appear to be 10 xp overspent (like I said I haven't put it in ogg dude's generator so I haven't double checked whether or not you followed RAW)

 

 

18 hours ago, Luahk said:

I'm halfway. 
I believe the PCs should start as the run of the mill characters with a great potential to end up significantly beyond that and reach a level where they might be a side character in the movie (or a relevant character from Clone wars) and perhaps, if they continue to achieve ridiculous things, to a level where they might even become central. 

PCs of any given campaign may be the "main characters" of their story, but not of the Star Wars saga story as a whole. Our campaigns are the side stories happening elsewhere in the galaxy while Luke Skywalker is blowing up the Death Star, taking on Darth Vader and the Emperor, or Anakin Skywalker before him, is fighting Count Dooku, or turning to the Dark Side. So, we're closer to Aayla Secrua, Quinlan Vos, Ki Adi  Mundi, Wedge Antilies, Nien Nnub , not Anaking Skywalker, Luke Skywalker, Qui Gon Jinn, Obi Wan Kenobi, or Han Solo.

 

And, no, I do not admit anything regarding Niman. In fact, I still consider Niman to be one of the, if not the, weakest lightsaber style. It relies too heavily on non combat talents, and Force talents, rather than bettering a Jedi's ability in the lightsaber. There's a  reason why Niman is called the "Diplomat's Form". This is why all of the Niman users in the Battle of Geonosis were killed. 

Edited by Tramp Graphics

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2 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Most sentient beings in the galaxy don't even have stats. This game isn't a simulation of the galaxy, it's an engine for collaboratively creating Star Wars-like stories through play.

Classifying an npc as a minion does NOT mean that you the GM have created or will ever create a stat block for them, it's just a little bit of gm preparation like having a printed list of randomly generated star wars names on hand while running a game in case you need to give a name to an npc who before your players asked didn't have a name (in universe (s)he "always" hand the name the gm just assigned to him/her on the fly). 

The categorization as an npc means if (s)he's by him/her-self then (s)he only gets to roll green dice and either 2 or 3 of them (assuming (s)he's human), strain can kill him/her (so if (s)he does roll threat then a PC with a lightsaber but NOT improved reflect cand spend that threat to cause strain converted to wounds and fluff it as redirecting a blaster bolt back at him/her) as will a crit, (s)he only gets a second maneuver by trading in his/her action or spending 2 advantage.  Minion npcs also tend not to be assigned names until they BECOME relevant enough due to the unfolding of events/interaction with PCs, and then the name the gm assigned to them on the fly from the aforementioned list of names retroactively becomes the name (s)he was (probably, because it could be an alias) born with.

And if you for some reason need to on the fly generate a statblock, already knowing that an npc is a minion makes that a tad faster (pick 2 to 4 attributes to be 3's, a number of wounds, and gear, you don'teven need to pick group skills yet) and the game flow more smoothly (if you have a bunch a generic npc stat blocks prepared it helps you pull one a little faster).

The statement/philosophy that most npcs are minions is just blanket one time default prep done for random encounters with most sentients in the galaxy, they have to be in someway special/relevant to the story for the gm to need to do anything else beyond what I just mentioned for them.  Storm troopers are an example of "special" minions, special enough to have ready made statblocks for groups of them.

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That minor characters in the story can be expressed with minion stat blocks once there is a need for them to interact with the system doesn't mean that the trillions of citizens of the SW galaxy are minions or have minion stat blocks. We seem to agree there.

I'm saying you can't extrapolate from that towards what the stats of a Jedi/hero "would" be. The stats of this person of significance are chosen by what makes sense in the system, not by population statistics.

Maybe I'm misreading you and we don't even disagree, but the above is my stance.

 

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49 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

 

And, no, I do not admit anything regarding Niman. In fact, I still consider Niman to be one of the, if not the, weakest lightsaber style. It relies too heavily on non combat talents, and Force talents, rather than bettering a Jedi's ability in the lightsaber. There's a  reason why Niman is called the "Diplomat's Form". This is why all of the Niman users in the Battle of Geonosis were killed. 

That's your bias, one I don't share. I'm pretty sure every lightsaber technique talent possibly excepting the juyo/vapaad ones are force talents, and even if those get a one off exception then i think reflect an improved and supreme reflect and parry go out the window.  And even if your excepting those too then your no force talent prohibition is also going to render ataru strikers and makashi ?sp? adopts pretty impotent.  So applying a no force talent prohibition to just niman is pretty hypocritical, and ignores the fact that JEDI USE THE FORCE TO ENHANCE THEIR ABILITY WITH LIGHTSABERS, it's kind of their schtick.

But I'll put the 700 earned xp niman sentry jedi build I put together against your ?710? earned xp shien seer build in a NO FORCE POWERS lightsaber duel, and I'm pretty sure the niman sentry will wreck the shien seer more often than not.  Defense is 2 black dice higher and attack is 2 yellow 2 green 3 white vs. 3 green 1 yellow, and the niman sentry will more likely than not go first.

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10 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

That minor characters in the story can be expressed with minion stat blocks once there is a need for them to interact with the system doesn't mean that the trillions of citizens of the SW galaxy are minions or have minion stat blocks. We seem to agree there.

I'm saying you can't extrapolate from that towards what the stats of a Jedi/hero "would" be. The stats of this person of significance are chosen by what makes sense in the system, not by population statistics.

Maybe I'm misreading you and we don't even disagree, but the above is my stance.

 

I think that you're misreading me and we don't even disagree on anything major

My default conversion from statless npc to statted npc is minion though, there has to be something special about them/a compelling reason for me to do otherwise.  Not sure if that's even a minor devils in the details disagreement.

The important jedi npc stats I posted were where I would start for a named jedi npc that I planned to have be a peer for jedi knight pcs that they would regularly interact with, its stats are based off of how I've seen players build jedi pcs and anticipated interactions with jedi pcs not generic npcs.  It happens to be immensely more formidable than my default minion npc, but not quite at the level of most jedi PCs I've seen.

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26 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

That's your bias, one I don't share. I'm pretty sure every lightsaber technique talent possibly excepting the juyo/vapaad ones are force talents, and even if those get a one off exception then i think reflect an improved and supreme reflect and parry go out the window.  And even if your excepting those too then your no force talent prohibition is also going to render ataru strikers and makashi ?sp? adopts pretty impotent.  So applying a no force talent prohibition to just niman is pretty hypocritical, and ignores the fact that JEDI USE THE FORCE TO ENHANCE THEIR ABILITY WITH LIGHTSABERS, it's kind of their schtick.

But I'll put the 700 earned xp niman sentry jedi build I put together against your ?710? earned xp shien seer build in a NO FORCE POWERS lightsaber duel, and I'm pretty sure the niman sentry will wreck the shien seer more often than not.  Defense is 2 black dice higher and attack is 2 yellow 2 green 3 white vs. 3 green 1 yellow, and the niman sentry will more likely than not go first.

Many of the Force talents in Niman have nothing to do with combat, much less the lightsaber. In fact, the Niman Disciple spec has the fewest combat related talents of any of the lightsaber form specs, with Shii Cho potentially equaling it. All of the other dedicated lightsaber forms have no less than fifteen talents and Force talents devoted to the lightsaber or combat in general, compared to Niman’s and Shii Cho’s eleven combat/lightsaber talents. So almost half of Niman’s talents are non combat related talents and Force talents. Thus, for a dedicated Lightsaber form, it is weak, which fits with the canon establishment of it as the “diplomat’s” form, since it was developed for non combat focused Jedi. 

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41 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Many of the Force talents in Niman have nothing to do with combat, much less the lightsaber. In fact, the Niman Disciple spec has the fewest combat related talents of any of the lightsaber form specs, with Shii Cho potentially equaling it. All of the other dedicated lightsaber forms have no less than fifteen talents and Force talents devoted to the lightsaber or combat in general, compared to Niman’s and Shii Cho’s eleven combat/lightsaber talents. So almost half of Niman’s talents are non combat related talents and Force talents. Thus, for a dedicated Lightsaber form, it is weak, which fits with the canon establishment of it as the “diplomat’s” form, since it was developed for non combat focused Jedi. 

Really? The only ones I can see that don not increase lightsaber combat skills is nobody's fool and sense emotions, and possibly dedication, depending on your choice. I'd argue that force rating, while in most cases is a utility talent, as Niiman also gives you Draw closer, it becomes a pretty powerful boost to combat ability in this case. Of course, you could skip draw closer, but it is pretty much one of the signature talents of the tree. If you skip it, why did you take Niiman in the first place?

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9 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

Really? The only ones I can see that don not increase lightsaber combat skills is nobody's fool and sense emotions, and possibly dedication, depending on your choice. I'd argue that force rating, while in most cases is a utility talent, as Niiman also gives you Draw closer, it becomes a pretty powerful boost to combat ability in this case. Of course, you could skip draw closer, but it is pretty much one of the signature talents of the tree. If you skip it, why did you take Niiman in the first place?

Elias takes Niman, not me. I don’t have a single character with that spec, and even my test build in this thread uses Shien and Seer, to counter his argument that Niman is so superior. Secondly, talents which are “general utility” are not the same thing as truly combat or lightsaber oriented talents and Force talents. That’s the distinction I’m making. Niman has a lot of general utility talents and Force talents. Almost half the spec is general utility talents a a social talents. By contrast, Soresu, Shien, Ataru, Makashi, have three quarters of their talents and Force talents directly focused on combat or the lightsaber specifically. Only one quarter of the talents are general utility or social talents and Force talents. 

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6 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Elias takes Niman, not me. I don’t have a single character with that spec, and even my test build in this thread uses Shien and Seer, to counter his argument that Niman is so superior. Secondly, talents which are “general utility” are not the same thing as truly combat or lightsaber oriented talents and Force talents. That’s the distinction I’m making. Niman has a lot of general utility talents and Force talents. Almost half the spec is general utility talents a a social talents. By contrast, Soresu, Shien, Ataru, Makashi, have three quarters of their talents and Force talents directly focused on combat or the lightsaber specifically. Only one quarter of the talents are general utility or social talents and Force talents. 

Could you list the talents in Niman that you don't consider to be focused on lightsaber combat?

I see these possibilities:

  1. Nobody's Fool
  2. Sense Emotions
  3. Grit (generally useful in combat)
  4. Toughened (generally useful in combat)
  5. Dedication (directly useful in combat if the Disciple is raising Willpower)
  6. Force Rating (directly useful in combat if using Draw Closer)

That's hardly half of the tree, and I would say that 4/6 of those talents are useful in lightsaber combat.

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47 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Could you list the talents in Niman that you don't consider to be focused on lightsaber combat?

I see these possibilities:

  1. Nobody's Fool
  2. Sense Emotions
  3. Grit (generally useful in combat)
  4. Toughened (generally useful in combat)
  5. Dedication (directly useful in combat if the Disciple is raising Willpower)
  6. Force Rating (directly useful in combat if using Draw Closer)

That's hardly half of the tree, and I would say that 4/6 of those talents are useful in lightsaber combat.

Count each copy of the ranked talents separately for starters. And all of those talents fall under “general utility”, not combat specific, and certainly not lightsaber combat focused. Even the two Center of Being talents are only passively combat related, in that they increase an opponent’s crit Rating, and Force Assault is designed to cover a Niman user’s weakness in the Lightsaber by essentially using the Force to push targets away after missing him. The talents which focus on lightsaber combat are: 

  • Parry (3 ranks)
  • Reflect (3 ranks) 
  • Niman Technique 
  • Defensive Training
  • Draw Closer 
  • Sum Djem
  • Force Assault. 

By contrast, Soresu has:

  • Parry (4 ranks)
  • Reflect (3 ranks) 
  • Improved Reflect
  • Soresu Technique 
  • Improved Parry
  • Supreme Parry
  • Defensive Stance (2 ranks)
  • Defensive Circle
  • Strategic Form

All of these are directly focused on lightsaber combat. And, even if you counted Grit, Toughened and the two Center of Being talents, Soresu and most of the other Lightsaber forms have at most two to three non combat talents (including Dedication) whereas Niman has four or more. In addition  to Dedication, Soresu only has Confidence, Makashi only has Intense Presence, Ataru has Conditioned (2 ranks), Shien has Conditioned and Street Smarts, Shii-Cho has Conditioned, Niman has Nobody’s Fool, Sense Emotions, and Force Rating. Ataru is the only othe lightsaber spec that even comes close to matching Niman in “non combat” talents, and even those are geared towards the athletic and gymnastics directly associated with Ataru. As such, Niman is the least Lightsaber focused of all of the lightsaber forms.

Edited by Tramp Graphics

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57 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Count each copy of the ranked talents separately for starters. And all of those talents fall under “general utility”, not combat specific, and certainly not lightsaber combat focused. Even the two Center of Being talents are only passively combat related, in that they increase an opponent’s crit Rating, and Force Assault is designed to cover a Niman user’s weakness in the Lightsaber by essentially using the Force to push targets away after missing him. The talents which focus on lightsaber combat are:

Um... Center of Being can only be used with a lightsaber, so it's certainly a lightsaber combat technique ,and even if "passive" it's easily as combat relevant as Defensive Training. With the Improved version, it's a great talent in a lightsaber duel, particularly if you take something that lets you get a few more ranks of the base talent (like Protector). Force Assault is still a lightsaber combat technique even if it relies on an Force Power and missing (something Feint in Makashi does as well). With Niman, the whole point is thinking beyond just bringing the blade into contact with the opponent, so it's a bit unfair to disqualify techniques because they don't fall under other styles' defined methods of fighting.

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15 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Um... Center of Being can only be used with a lightsaber, so it's certainly a lightsaber combat technique ,and even if "passive" it's easily as combat relevant as Defensive Training. With the Improved version, it's a great talent in a lightsaber duel, particularly if you take something that lets you get a few more ranks of the base talent (like Protector). Force Assault is still a lightsaber combat technique even if it relies on an Force Power and missing (something Feint in Makashi does as well). With Niman, the whole point is thinking beyond just bringing the blade into contact with the opponent, so it's a bit unfair to disqualify techniques because they don't fall under other styles' defined methods of fighting.

Regardless, Niman still has the most non-combat focused talents of all of the lightsaber forms, even adding the Grits and Toughened talents among the combat related talents. Most of the others only have two non combat focused talents, including Dedication. Ataru being the only other exception, with two Conditioned talents. Including Dedication, Niman has four non combat focused talents. That’s double the number of non combat talents compared to almost all of the other lightsaber specs.

Edited by Tramp Graphics

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2 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Elias takes Niman, not me. I don’t have a single character with that spec, and even my test build in this thread uses Shien and Seer, to counter his argument that Niman is so superior. Secondly, talents which are “general utility” are not the same thing as truly combat or lightsaber oriented talents and Force talents. That’s the distinction I’m making. Niman has a lot of general utility talents and Force talents. Almost half the spec is general utility talents a a social talents. By contrast, Soresu, Shien, Ataru, Makashi, have three quarters of their talents and Force talents directly focused on combat or the lightsaber specifically. Only one quarter of the talents are general utility or social talents and Force talents. 

For someone who was just claiming that the niman-sentry build was overpowered/overkill that your now claiming that your sentry seer build is proof that the niman sentry build isn't "superior" seems pretty inconsistent.

I think we need to solve this with a lightsaber duel.  Just to make this more demonstrative let's have a rule that all attacks must be lightsaber attacks which means I can't use force assault, which is kind of fighting with one hand tied behind my back.  Also let's use unmodified basic lightsabers (which is also disadvantageous to my build because it should be able to craft a better lightsaber, 4 int 2 ranks in mechanics), since we're showing up for a duel we can start with sense defense upgrade on, we both get armored robes (we came dressed to fight), and either no destiny points or 4 starting half white and half black you get to choose upfront whether to spend white or black, I'll spend the other, and since your pride is on the line I don't trust you not to cheat so @SithArissarolls all the dice for us on promos and posts them.

 

Oh and best 3 out of 5 so that you can't claim I got lucky.

Edited by EliasWindrider

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It’s not the spec combination itself that’s “overpowered” in your builds. It’s your insistence on three 3s and a 4, overloading on the number of talents, and ranks in talents above what most movie Jedi had, rather than the “main cast”. That’s the problem I have with your builds. They don’t match the “standard” movie Jedi. They match the main characters.

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13 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Regardless, Niman still has the most non-combat focused talents of all of the lightsaber forms, even adding the Grits and Toughened talents among the combat related talents. Most of the others only have two non combat focused talents, including Dedication. Ataru being the only other exception, with two Conditioned talents. Including Dedication, Niman has four non combat focused talents. That’s double the number of non combat talents compared to almost all of the other lightsaber specs.

Well, there is Juyo Berserker where we have:

  • Intimidating (2)
  • Inner Peace (2)
  • Dedication
  • Balance

At 6 talents that are not wholly combat-focused, it oddly comes out as being the least combat-focused lightsaber style by your calculus.

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1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It’s not the spec combination itself that’s “overpowered” in your builds. It’s your insistence on three 3s and a 4, overloading on the number of talents, and ranks in talents above what most movie Jedi had, rather than the “main cast”. That’s the problem I have with your builds. They don’t match the “standard” movie Jedi. They match the main characters.

That sounds like you're trying to talk your way out of lightsaber duel that you know you're going to lose without losing face.  By the way both specs provide dedication, and since the second one is used in intellect rather than willpower (so my build wasn't specifically built to duel) the only benefit I'll be getting from sentry is force rating and initiative grit and toughened... you won't be able to claim that it isn't the niman-disciple that beat your build.

 

By the way there are multiple definitions of "standard" I believe that obiwan and anakin in ep 2 set the "standard" by which the abilities of all jedi *knights* should be judged, it's the goal to aspire to even if you don't achieve it.

Edited by EliasWindrider

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Okay, details! Where is the fight taking place? Arena? Apartment? Alley? Bridge? Barricade? Shop? Ship?

To the death, there rounds, or any crit above 100?

Elias is fighting Tramp!

*Insert Matrix gif under 40 kBs here*

Edited by Dayham

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Basic Jedi training gym. No obstacles, no outside interference. One chooses high or low. Other rolls a D10. If the 1st person guesses correctly they get to pick their choice of light or dark destiny points else the other does. Each character gets at least a single destiny point to spend. I will roll a D10 before each round, low initiative is vigilance, high is cool. Matches with be run with modified old navy rules "first guy to die (or pass out) loses!" 

 

Edited by SithArissa

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I don't really see how a Jedi v. Jedi duel is going to show us a clear example of movie Jedi. If it has to be Clone Wars inspired, I'd much rather see both of them run a gauntlet through battle droids of various types.

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10 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

And I am going by what the actual articles state, not how anothe rfan may or may not interpret them. 

You mean the wookie article with this at the top This article is about the classic sixth form of lightsaber combat. You may be looking for the dual blades combat form also known as Jar'Kai. and the Jar'kai on that says at the top This article is about the dual blades fighting technique. You may be looking for the sixth form of lightsaber combat known as Niman.

 

ok.

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9 minutes ago, Eoen said:

You mean the wookie article with this at the top This article is about the classic sixth form of lightsaber combat. You may be looking for the dual blades combat form also known as Jar'Kai. and the Jar'kai on that says at the top This article is about the dual blades fighting technique. You may be looking for the sixth form of lightsaber combat known as Niman.

 

ok.

I think your evidence supports Tramp's position.

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11 hours ago, penpenpen said:

If you skip it, why did you take Niiman in the first place?

10 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Elias takes Niman, not me.

That was a rethorical "you", not you personally, Trampy.

I was going to say something along the lines of "I hope that clears up any confusion/misunderstanding/miscommunication", but given the last five pages or so that would be foolishly optimistic.

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