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17 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

I accept your "no contest" admission  of defeat. ?

Maybe we watched different star wars movies, but in the ones I watched, the jedi (at least the jedi that got enough screen time to make an assessment about) could handle themselves ADEQUATELY in any situation that they found themselves in.

A movie quality jedi needs to start with a 3 in brawn, willpower, agility and whatever attribute they'll use for lightsaber.  They need 4 dice for their lightsaber attack and discipline (for using and resisting force powers) and either cool or vigilance (whichever theyll use for initiative) and it would be helpful to have 4 dice in mechanics, so they can make a good lightsaber.  And when I say 4 dice i means means at least 2 yellow.

So any 2 spec combo that doesn't involve niman-disciple actually does require 2 dedications, one for willpower (forcepowers like move, and vigilance) and the other for the lightsaber attribute (for human this is also covered by willpower).   For soresu defender you could make an attempt at this by putting the one dedication into willpower to cover discipline and vigilance and putting 4 ranks in the lightsaber skill but that's an expensive of at least 35 xp that you don't have to make with niman, and you'll be making do with 3 dice for mechanics when it comes time to build your lightsaber, for shien expert  you either won't even have 3 dice for mechanics checks or you'll be spending even more extra  xp.  So you guessed it that makes niman sentry the cheapest/quickest path.

The 2 spec combo involving niman is the only only one that doesn't really need the second dedication because it gets to use willpower as the "everything stat", so I  could have saved 25 xp by not taking it, I could have saved another 15 xp by not putting the second rank in mechanics, and I could have saved another 5 xp by putting the 2nd niman starting rank in lightsaber instead of negotiation but I think that adds a lot to the playability of the build, and I think that you missed the part where this was an rpg character, that someone had to play, in a campaign to get the 700 or so earned xp with the purpose of continuing to play it afterward.   A character who can't do anything but fight isn't going to be fun outside of combat.

Oh and did I mention that starting niman let's you put the required 2 ranks in discipline for free... yet another reason why it's the quickest/cheapest way to a movie quality jedi.  Technically the niman sentry combo only needs to spend 20 xp on skills to get to movie quality.   Come on Tramp man up or by default you eat your words.  Go on prove that niman-sentry isn't the quickest path to a movie quality jedi, "I triple dog dare you" (that was something that was said in high school 24+ years ago) it's time to put your proverbial money where your mouth is.

 

16 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

Judging from your posts here, you're a heavy powergamer. That's fine for a table that takes that into account, but for many of us, a Characteristic of 3 is actually high and having 4 dice in a skill is truly exceptional. As a result of this, I would argue that most Jedi likely had few or no ranks in Mechanics and made due with a basic hilt and minimal adjustments to it. Again, I'm not saying you are wrong for playing it the way you do at your table, but realize that not everyone sees it that way.

@HappyDaze nailed it. A "movie style" Jedi does not "need" to be as "powerful" as you make it out to be. Ob-Wan, and Anakin, were exceptions, not the standard. The same with Yoda. 

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4 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

 

@HappyDaze nailed it. A "movie style" Jedi does not "need" to be as "powerful" as you make it out to be. Ob-Wan, and Anakin, were exceptions, not the standard. The same with Yoda. 

All players want to be the exceptions.  We play Star Wars to be like Luke, Han, & Boba Fett.

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Just now, Eoen said:

All players want to be the exceptions.  We play Star Wars to be like Luke, Han, & Boba Fett.

Yes, but that’s not the point. The point is that a “movie style” Jedi does not need to be built to “power gamer” standards in order to be effective or match what we see on screen. 

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1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, but that’s not the point. The point is that a “movie style” Jedi does not need to be built to “power gamer” standards in order to be effective or match what we see on screen. 

What I see on screen are guys and gals that can leap out of airspeeders on Corescant and expect to live.

People who can fly a freighter through a  narrow passage and escape the bad guy.

 

Characters like Luke, Anekin, and Yoda are the ones we see doing things in the various media, not the side characters who don’t have names.

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I like to tell my players that the SW films/series are in-universe entertainment pieces "based upon (mostly?) true stories" but that the events should not be taken as absolute depictions of that reality because the reality likely differs (much as the actions of heroes in legends, myths, and religions is likely not exact depictions of the events they are based upon). What these stories say of the Jedi are one thing, but what they can actually accomplish...well, in this universe they have to follow the game rules. That means that in my stories, not every Jedi was capable of Reflect (Improved), throwing droids around with Move, or using Enhance for a Force-assisted leap.

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23 minutes ago, Eoen said:

Characters like Luke, Anekin, and Yoda are the ones we see doing things in the various media, not the side characters who don’t have names.

Those 'side characters' often have names and stories of their own, and PCs are very often more like them that you might like.

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16 minutes ago, Eoen said:

What I see on screen are guys and gals that can leap out of airspeeders on Corescant and expect to live.

People who can fly a freighter through a  narrow passage and escape the bad guy.

 

Characters like Luke, Anekin, and Yoda are the ones we see doing things in the various media, not the side characters who don’t have names.

Yes, but even Luke wasn’t as “overkill” as some people think he was, particularly not in ANH. That’s the point. The “power gamer” mentality does not necessarily make a better character, nor does it equate to what is required to make a “movie style” Jedi. Not only that, but it also doesn’t mean that there is only one possible spec combination to achieve that goal  in the “quickest” way. This is because what someone equates to a “movie style“ Jedi differs from person to person, and there is also a very wide variety of “movie style” Jedi to pick from as examples. Not only that, but even among the most “Iconic” of Jedi on screen, they are all very different in their skill sets and strengths and weaknesses. In fact none of the iconic Jedi (Anakin, Obi Wan, Yoda, etc) used the Niman form. Obi wan was a Soresu master, Yoda used Ataru, Anakin was a Shien practitioner. All of the Niman users in AotC were killed. So I certainly wouldn’t classify it as a “must have” specialization for quickly creating a “movie style” Jedi. 

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1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, but even Luke wasn’t as “overkill” as some people think he was, particularly not in ANH. That’s the point. The “power gamer” mentality does not necessarily make a better character, nor does it equate to what is required to make a “movie style” Jedi. Not only that, but it also doesn’t mean that there is only one possible spec combination to achieve that goal  in the “quickest” way. This is because what someone equates to a “movie style“ Jedi differs from person to person, and there is also a very wide variety of “movie style” Jedi to pick from as examples. Not only that, but even among the most “Iconic” of Jedi on screen, they are all very different in their skill sets and strengths and weaknesses. In fact none of the iconic Jedi (Anakin, Obi Wan, Yoda, etc) used the Niman form. Obi wan was a Soresu master, Yoda used Ataru, Anakin was a Shien practitioner. All of the Niman users in AotC were killed. So I certainly wouldn’t classify it as a “must have” specialization for quickly creating a “movie style” Jedi. 

Yoda knew all seven lightsaber styles.  Obi-wan was the master of Soresu, but he learnt Ataru first, Anekin may have been a Shien practitioner but he knew Jar-kia, and later was the master of Shi-cho.  Ahsoka may have been a Shien practitioner but she knew Niman to a high degree.  All of the main characters would be classified as power gamers.

Edited by Eoen

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16 minutes ago, Eoen said:

Yoda knew all seven lightsaber styles.  Obi-wan was the master of Soresu, but he learnt Ataru first, Anekin may have been a Shien practitioner but he knew Jar-kia, and later was the master of Shi-cho.  Ashoka may have been a Shien practitioner but she knew Niman to a high degree.  All of the main characters would be classified as power gamers.

Not to the degree many people make them out to be. Not only that, but I question your assertion that Ashoka studied Niman. She practiced Jar’Kai, as in two weapons, but did so purely with  Shien. That was her form of choice. She was never shown to practice Niman. 

Edited by Tramp Graphics

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33 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Not to the degree many people make them out to be. Not only that, but I question your assertion that Ashoka studied Niman. She practiced Jar’Kai, as in two weapons, but did so purely with  Shien. That was her form of choice. She was never shown to practice Niman. 

Nonsense, she uses force assault all of the time.  Also in the eu she spars with Barris Ofee, who tells here she should have used Niman against her in their sparring session. Also Jai’Kia is a subset of Niman.

Edited by Eoen

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This is weird because often when I read your stuff mate i'm in agreement with you or, at the very least i'm able to see where you're coming from @Tramp Graphics but here i'm unsure what you believe to be the standard of the jedi in the films/new canon.
 

1 hour ago, Eoen said:

All players want to be the exceptions.  We play Star Wars to be like Luke, Han, & Boba Fett.

Yeah. Whilst I don't allow any of my players to start at what I would call 'Galactic Hero level' I do present to them the opportunity to become vital cogs to whatever organisation they're in and, should they succeed often enough, to become the heroes of that group. I give enough of a build up that they don't start out on a mission to blow up the death star but I might have them a part of a much larger scale event but in a minor role. 
 

1 hour ago, Eoen said:

What I see on screen are guys and gals that can leap out of airspeeders on Corescant and expect to live.

People who can fly a freighter through a  narrow passage and escape the bad guy.

 

Characters like Luke, Anekin, and Yoda are the ones we see doing things in the various media, not the side characters who don’t have names.

The game gives you skills that are beyond what a normal somebody can do. Just by having one of these specs...read the talents...they're incredible some of the things people can do. Especially compared to your average NPC. The game does not intend you to play an irrelevant background character but instead wants you to depict someone who is relevant. Maybe someone important to be in the clone wars series but not the movies.

I think it'd be fair to say that Anakin is of a higher level to most...and in game it'd be something like his ridiculous FR or abuse of flow allows him to confidently attempt things that would be far riskier for most people..even jedi. The example you used is difficult because in the prequels they treat peril so casually often and Obi wan reacts far too calmly to Anakin's reaction for me but that can easily be put down to he's 'Galactic Hero level' and PCs are not.
So a PC would likely not be capable of that...it'd be a happy medium between that and one of the no-names that gets gunned down in the first volley of blasts at Gen. 

The Jedi depicted in the new canon are competent everywhere. In the clone wars series any jedi (Padawan/knight or master) we see in  the field is mostly assured whilst carrying out their respective duties and I do believe that if you're going to build a Jedi during that era you should find a way to become so. having several characteristics at 3 or abusing the ability to roll your FR to add ADV/Success would, to me, make sense. A knight would be accomplished in a field to the point that he could accomplish more with the same skills and a master should reach a point that the things they focus on should rarely fail as such that they become an authority upon it.

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55 minutes ago, Eoen said:

Nonsense, she uses force assault all of the time.  Also in the eu she spars with Barris Ofee, who tells here she should have used Niman against her in their sparring session. Also Jai’Kia is a subset of Niman.

Jar’Kai is simply two lightsaber combat, and that can be used with any of the lightsaber forms.  Also, using Move after a lightsaber strike can be interpreted multiple different ways, from being Force Assault so simply being two separate actions over multiple rounds of combat. And, once again, Ashoka relied predominantly on her cunning and agility, not willpower. So, no, I wouldn’t say that she was exceptionally practiced at Niman. She may have been exposed to it, but I would not call her proficient in that form.

 

16 minutes ago, Luahk said:

This is weird because often when I read your stuff mate i'm in agreement with you or, at the very least i'm able to see where you're coming from @Tramp Graphics but here i'm unsure what you believe to be the standard of the jedi in the films/new canon.
 

Yeah. Whilst I don't allow any of my players to start at what I would call 'Galactic Hero level' I do present to them the opportunity to become vital cogs to whatever organisation they're in and, should they succeed often enough, to become the heroes of that group. I give enough of a build up that they don't start out on a mission to blow up the death star but I might have them a part of a much larger scale event but in a minor role. 
 

The game gives you skills that are beyond what a normal somebody can do. Just by having one of these specs...read the talents...they're incredible some of the things people can do. Especially compared to your average NPC. The game does not intend you to play an irrelevant background character but instead wants you to depict someone who is relevant. Maybe someone important to be in the clone wars series but not the movies.

I think it'd be fair to say that Anakin is of a higher level to most...and in game it'd be something like his ridiculous FR or abuse of flow allows him to confidently attempt things that would be far riskier for most people..even jedi. The example you used is difficult because in the prequels they treat peril so casually often and Obi wan reacts far too calmly to Anakin's reaction for me but that can easily be put down to he's 'Galactic Hero level' and PCs are not.
So a PC would likely not be capable of that...it'd be a happy medium between that and one of the no-names that gets gunned down in the first volley of blasts at Gen. 

The Jedi depicted in the new canon are competent everywhere. In the clone wars series any jedi (Padawan/knight or master) we see in  the field is mostly assured whilst carrying out their respective duties and I do believe that if you're going to build a Jedi during that era you should find a way to become so. having several characteristics at 3 or abusing the ability to roll your FR to add ADV/Success would, to me, make sense. A knight would be accomplished in a field to the point that he could accomplish more with the same skills and a master should reach a point that the things they focus on should rarely fail as such that they become an authority upon it.

What I would consider the “standard” Jedi from the Prequel movies in particular, would be Ki Adi Mundi, Quinlan Voss, Barris Ofee, Ayla Secura, etc. The secondary and tertiary named characters—as opposed to the “extras” or purel background characters—but not necessarily the primary leads. These are the Jedi who often had their own major story arcs in the media (particularly in Clone Wars), but were not the main leads of the saga as a whole. The leads I consider above and beyond the standard movie style Jedi. These are the “Uber Jedi”, the exceptions not the rule.

Edited by Tramp Graphics

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16 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Jar’Kai is simply two lightsaber combat, and that can be used with any of the lightsaber forms.  Also, using Move after a lightsaber strike can be interpreted multiple different ways, from being Force Assault so simply being two separate actions over multiple rounds of combat. And, once again, Ashoka relied predominantly on her cunning and agility, not willpower. So, no, I wouldn’t say that she was exceptionally practiced at Niman. She may have been exposed to it, but I would not call her proficient in that form.

Jar’kai is a direct offshoot of Niman it was even originally called Niman.  http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jar'Kai/Legends

But yeah sure you can simulate most of the talent force powers with the full force powers.

 

I beg to differ Ahsoka is as stubborn as the come almost to your level of stubbornness.

But here are her official stats: 

AHSOKA TANO

[Nemesis]

BRA 3 AGI 4 INT 3 CUN 4 WIL 4 PRE 3

notice willpower is the same as agility and cunning 

Edited by Eoen

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33 minutes ago, Eoen said:

Jar’kai is a direct offshoot of Niman it was even originally called Niman.  http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jar'Kai/Legends

But yeah sure you can simulate most of the talent force powers with the full force powers.

 

I beg to differ Ahsoka is as stubborn as the come almost to your level of stubbornness.

But here are her official stats: 

AHSOKA TANO

[Nemesis]

BRA 3 AGI 4 INT 3 CUN 4 WIL 4 PRE 3

notice willpower is the same as agility and cunning 

Go back and reread that Wookieepedia article again. It does not say that Jar’Kai was an offshoot of Niman. Rather, it was a two weapon style that developed concurrently with, but independent of, Niman. To quote:

Quote

Jar'Kai was originally a style of swordplay that utilized dual blades, developed by the Yovshin Swordsmen. A similar dual-blade technique referred to as Niman was developed by the Royale Macheterosof the Kashi Mer monarchy.[2] Niman was adopted by the darksider group known as the Legions of Lettowduring the First Great Schism, as well as the Jedi Order itself.[2] Niman was developed into the sixth form of Lightsaber combat, retaining its name,[2] while Jar'Kai became something of a blanket term for dual-blade combat.

So, no, Jar’Kai did not descend from Niman. They were two different styles of two weapon fighting that developed independently of one another. Ashoka was a practitioner of Jar’Kai, not Niman. 

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7 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

 

@HappyDaze nailed it. A "movie style" Jedi does not "need" to be as "powerful" as you make it out to be. Ob-Wan, and Anakin, were exceptions, not the standard. The same with Yoda. 

What jedi would you get if you screen time averaged the displayed capabilities of jed shown in the movies?  By definition that is the quintessential/archetypal movie quality/style jedi.  That is going to be a lot closer to protagonists than background characters simply because the protagonists get more screen time.

No, PCs don't have to be built to movie standards, but that was the stated goal.  And more PCs want to play protagonists than background characters. 

Also are you really trying to make the claim that if a character with 700 earned xp, has two 4's, two 3's, and two 2's for attributes and 3 skill ranks that they didn't start with, and no skill with over 2 ranks is overpowered?

2 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, but even Luke wasn’t as “overkill” as some people think he was, particularly not in ANH. That’s the point.

Luke wasn't a jedi in ANH, so you seemed to have missed that the point of building a movie quality JEDI.

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6 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

What jedi would you get if you screen time averaged the displayed capabilities of jed shown in the movies?  By definition that is the quintessential/archetypal movie quality/style jedi.  That is going to be a lot closer to protagonists than background characters simply because the protagonists get more screen time.

No, PCs don't have to be built to movie standards, but that was the stated goal.  And more PCs want to play protagonists than background characters. 

Also are you really trying to make the claim that if a character with 700 earned xp, has two 4's, two 3's, and two 2's for attributes and 3 skill ranks that they didn't start with, and no skill with over 2 ranks is overpowered?

Luke wasn't a jedi in ANH, so you seemed to have missed that the point of building a movie quality JEDI.

I didn’t use “background” characters, aka “extras”,  as my examples. I used specific named Jedi who played significant roles in the stories, but were not the main leads. As for Luke, even as of RotJ, he wasn’t nearly as powerful as people make him out to be, not even the level of the characters I mentioned from the Prequel era. So, once again, you don’t need to have “power gamer” level of ability in order to be a proper “movie style” Jedi. 

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59 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

 

What I would consider the “standard” Jedi from the Prequel movies in particular, would be Ki Adi Mundi, Quinlan Voss, Barris Ofee, Ayla Secura, etc. The secondary and tertiary named characters—as opposed to the “extras” or purel background characters—but not necessarily the primary leads. These are the Jedi who often had their own major story arcs in the media (particularly in Clone Wars), but were not the main leads of the saga as a whole. The leads I consider above and beyond the standard movie style Jedi. These are the “Uber Jedi”, the exceptions not the rule.

 

Do you really think you could build barris ofee or Quinlan voss without two attributes at 4? (I don't remember Ki Adi Mundi or Ayla Secura getting enough screen time in the clone wars cgi series to make an assessment) at the end of the clone wars series Bariss Ofee had Anakin's skill with a saber.  Ahsoka seemed to acknowledge Ayla secura as having more umph than her.

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4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I didn’t use “background” characters, aka “extras”,  as my examples. I used specific named Jedi who played significant roles in the stories, but were not the main leads. As for Luke, even as of RotJ, he wasn’t nearly as powerful as people make him out to be, not even the level of the characters I mentioned from the Prequel era. So, once again, you don’t need to have “power gamer” level of ability in order to be a proper “movie style” Jedi. 

In the movies they were background characters, you have to go to other sources for them to become important.

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5 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

 

Do you really think you could build barris ofee or Quinlan voss without two attributes at 4? (I don't remember Ki Adi Mundi or Ayla Secura getting enough screen time in the clone wars cgi series to make an assessment) at the end of the clone wars series Bariss Ofee had Anakin's skill with a saber.  Ahsoka seemed to acknowledge Ayla secura as having more umph than her.

When Aayla Secura was first introduced in the fiction? Absolutely. At that point, she was barely a Knight, probably fresh from her Trials, if I recall correctly. She could easily be built with four threes in her attributes, or even only a single four in Presence. She doesn’t need a four in two different attributes. She doesn’t even need any fours. Are they nice to have? Sure. But they are not essential.

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4 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

In the movies they were background characters, you have to go to other sources for them to become important.

No, they are not, particularly not Ki Adi Mundi. This is because they had much greater screen time than the extras, and, as was the case with Mundi, had actual dialogue. So no, I don’t classify them as “background”. They’re secondary and tertiary characters, but not “background extras”. 

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1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Go back and reread that Wookieepedia article again. It does not say that Jar’Kai was an offshoot of Niman. Rather, it was a two weapon style that developed concurrently with, but independent of, Niman. To quote:

So, no, Jar’Kai did not descend from Niman. They were two different styles of two weapon fighting that developed independently of one another. Ashoka was a practitioner of Jar’Kai, not Niman. 

Yes it does, as Niman developed independently of Jar'Kai and as the Jedi adopted both styles, they use the term Jar'kai for two weapon fighting in general, but they are really teaching techniques from both.  Therefore Jar'Kai is the technique of two weapon fighting taught by the Jedi that orginated from both Niman and Jar'kai. Where as Niman as reflected in the game does not represent two weapon fighting, therefore there is a need for a two weapon spec hopefully in the clone wars era book.

Under the Niman entry: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_VI/Legends

Quote

While Form VI was not a weak fighting style, it was an inadequate form for the open battlefields of the Clone Wars. Notably, all adherents of the style involved in the Battle of Geonosis perished, prominent practitioners including Sarrissa Jeng, Sar Labooda, and Joclad Danva.[3] Danva's death was an especially sore loss for the Jedi Order, as he was among their most renowned duelists and martial artists, and master of Jar'Kai dual-blade fencing, one of the styles that Form VI lightsaber combat was derived from.[27] However, Form VI adherents and trainees remained, with Anakin Skywalker instructing his Padawan, Ahsoka Tano, in the lower levels of the style as a training exercise.[28] Tano would later take to wielding a shoto in her off-hand, in keeping with Niman dual-blade training.

This of course means that Anakin also knew Niman, and his two weapon technique probably originates from there.

Edited by Eoen

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