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5 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

The quickest path to emulating a movie quality jedi knight can be done with 2 specialization: niman-disciple and sentry in either order.  Throw in: enhance, influence, move, and sense with a few upgrades an you're good to go.  It's somewhere in the ballpark of 700-800 xp though (and this is the quickest path)

Except that many Jedi didn't use Niman. There were just as many, if not more that used one of the other five lightsaber forms. 

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33 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

I'd like to note that almost all significant Jedi seem to have Reflect (Improved), regardless of their preferred lightsaber form, and this only comes out of a few trees.

Specifically Shien Expert,  Soresu Defender, and  Sentry

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1 hour ago, HappyDaze said:

I'd like to note that almost all significant Jedi seem to have Reflect (Improved), regardless of their preferred lightsaber form, and this only comes out of a few trees.

 

33 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Specifically Shien Expert,  Soresu Defender, and  Sentry

 

hmmm, I'm pretty sure that I said Niman-disciple plus Sentry in either order was the QUICKEST path to a movie quality jedi

8 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

The quickest path to emulating a movie quality jedi knight can be done with 2 specialization: niman-disciple and sentry in either order.  Throw in: enhance, influence, move, and sense with a few upgrades an you're good to go.  It's somewhere in the ballpark of 700-800 xp though (and this is the quickest path)

yeah, I was remembering what I said correctly ?

 

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2 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

 

 

hmmm, I'm pretty sure that I said Niman-disciple plus Sentry in either order was the QUICKEST path to a movie quality jedi

yeah, I was remembering what I said correctly ?

 

Matter of opinion. You could get that just as quickly with Soresu Defender or Shien Expert and Seer, Hermit, etc. that have two Increase Force Rating talents.

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4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Matter of opinion. You could get that just as quickly with Soresu Defender or Shien Expert and Seer, Hermit, etc. that have two Increase Force Rating talents.

you'd miss out on a Dedication that way.  So no it's not an opinion, the fastest (meaning lowest XP cost) is through Niman-disciple+Sentry

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2 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

you'd miss out on a Dedication that way.  So no it's not an opinion, the fastest (meaning lowest XP cost) is through Niman-disciple+Sentry

A Dedication talent is not necessary to becoming a “movie style” Jedi. The Force Rating, skill with a lightsaber, Reflect (and Improved thereof) and Force powers are. So, no, the Niman/Sentry combo is not necessarily the quickest nor best option. Any combination of a lightsaber spec (that has Improved Reflect) and spec with two Increase Force Rating talents will work just as well and just as quickly. How many Dedication talents you gain, or miss out on, is irrelevant to that goal. 

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3 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

A Dedication talent is not necessary to becoming a “movie style” Jedi. The Force Rating, skill with a lightsaber, Reflect (and Improved thereof) and Force powers are. So, no, the Niman/Sentry combo is not necessarily the quickest nor best option. Any combination of a lightsaber spec (that has Improved Reflect) and spec with two Increase Force Rating talents will work just as well and just as quickly. How many Dedication talents you gain, or miss out on, is irrelevant to that goal. 

Dedication isn't necessary, it just a low xp (compared to buying up a bunch of skills) way to get the needed dice pools, making it the quickest/lowest xp way to get there.  So I'll ask again what part of QUICKEST didn't you understand?

If you would like to compare attempts to build the lowest earned xp cost movie capable human jedi, I'm game for that (the earned xp and human qualifiers are for a level playing field).

Here's a 700 earned xp movie jedi, let me know if he has anything (besides the dedication) that you don't consider essential, I really debated about putting the second rank into mechanics, but I figured if the character was going to be crafting his own lightsaber and reinforced clothing/jedi robes I figured it really help.  The basic lightsaber is just a place holder because I figured that whoever used this would want to craft their own (they'll want the custom grip though).  Also debated a little bit about whether to buy upgrades on the left side of the enhance power tree but I figured, movie capable jedi were good pilots so, the number of upgrades to move is also negotiable and someone else might have chosen to allocate their starting skill ranks differently.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/93vqzrklye6ig93/Movie_Jedi.pdf/file

one thing I noticed... my installation of ogg dude's generator has been acting up since the last upgrade.... and defensive training didn't increase Movie Jedi's melee defense by 2. 

Edited by EliasWindrider

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15 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Reflect (and Improved thereof) 

Depending on your certain point of view.

While reflect and improved reflect are the stated solid way of achieving such effects, like the Utility belt talent, you can apply similar or the same effects through other means as long as the GM agrees. 

Just as an easy example: applying generated threat as Strain to a low WT minion would easily create a situation that could be a narrative equivalent to an improved reflect.

 

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15 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Dedication isn't necessary, it just a low xp (compared to buying up a bunch of skills) way to get the needed dice pools, making it the quickest/lowest xp way to get there.  So I'll ask again what part of QUICKEST didn't you understand?

If you would like to compare attempts to build the lowest earned xp cost movie capable human jedi, I'm game for that (the earned xp and human qualifiers are for a level playing field).

Here's a 700 earned xp movie jedi, let me know if he has anything (besides the dedication) that you don't consider essential, I really debated about putting the second rank into mechanics, but I figured if the character was going to be crafting his own lightsaber and reinforced clothing/jedi robes I figured it really help.  The basic lightsaber is just a place holder because I figured that whoever used this would want to craft their own (they'll want the custom grip though).  Also debated a little bit about whether to buy upgrades on the left side of the enhance power tree but I figured, movie capable jedi were good pilots so, the number of upgrades to move is also negotiable and someone else might have chosen to allocate their starting skill ranks differently.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/93vqzrklye6ig93/Movie_Jedi.pdf/file

one thing I noticed... my installation of ogg dude's generator has been acting up since the last upgrade.... and defensive training didn't increase Movie Jedi's melee defense by 2. 

A “movie style” Jedi doesn’t need to spend a lot of XP into a bunch of skills, (or into Dedication). At most, he needs just a few, namely Lightsaber, Discipline, Vigilance, Knowledge (Lore), and possibly Mechanics (to maintain his or her lightsaber). What the Jedi needs more are talents and Force powers, and the Force Rating to power them effectively.

40 minutes ago, Ghostofman said:

Depending on your certain point of view.

While reflect and improved reflect are the stated solid way of achieving such effects, like the Utility belt talent, you can apply similar or the same effects through other means as long as the GM agrees. 

Just as an easy example: applying generated threat as Strain to a low WT minion would easily create a situation that could be a narrative equivalent to an improved reflect.

 

Reflect and Improved Reflect are hallmarks of a Jedi. His or her ability to block blaster bolts and bounce them back at their opponent is pretty iconic, and not something that Utilty Belt can really simulate. That’s a talent for pulling out useful gadgets out of “thin air” so to speak, not deflecting blaster bolts.

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1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

A “movie style” Jedi doesn’t need to spend a lot of XP into a bunch of skills, (or into Dedication). At most, he needs just a few, namely Lightsaber, Discipline, Vigilance, Knowledge (Lore), and possibly Mechanics (to maintain his or her lightsaber). What the Jedi needs more are talents and Force powers, and the Force Rating to power them effectively.

Reflect and Improved Reflect are hallmarks of a Jedi. His or her ability to block blaster bolts and bounce them back at their opponent is pretty iconic, and not something that Utilty Belt can really simulate. That’s a talent for pulling out useful gadgets out of “thin air” so to speak, not deflecting blaster bolts.

And you quite literally missed the point. In about the most Drax the destroyer way possible.

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1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

 

Reflect and Improved Reflect are hallmarks of a Jedi. His or her ability to block blaster bolts and bounce them back at their opponent is pretty iconic, and not something that Utilty Belt can really simulate. That’s a talent for pulling out useful gadgets out of “thin air” so to speak, not deflecting blaster bolts.

But pulling a useful gadget out if things air is a hallmark of a techie.

It's not about the hallmark anyway, it's about the mechanics and narrative.

Anyone can pull a useful gadget out of thin air by flipping a D-point and getting a thumbs up from the GM, but it's 100% up to the GM. But someone with Utility belt can flip a D-point and get anything within a certain block of options and unless there's a darn good narrative reason for the gm to override it, it happens. 

You see a similar situation with other things. A GM can spend a Despair to cause a player to run out of ammo, but some weapons say 3 Threat will do too.

Anyone on the receiving end of a failed attack check can say they dodged, not just someone who used the Dodge talent.

 

And that's the question about reflect that's going to be totally up to the user. 

If I have the Improved talent, then I can use a despair or three threat to bounce a hit...ok.

What if I don't have the talent? Can I still generate a similar effect with a Despair? Book doesn't say I can't. And Despairs are supposed to be bad.

What if the attack against me generated threat, and that threat is used to inflict strain against a non-nemisis? That means it takes wounds. Would you not be able to flavor that as a reflect? I mean with a low WT minion a few threat->strain can easily cause removal from play...

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56 minutes ago, Ghostofman said:

But pulling a useful gadget out if things air is a hallmark of a techie.

It's not about the hallmark anyway, it's about the mechanics and narrative.

Anyone can pull a useful gadget out of thin air by flipping a D-point and getting a thumbs up from the GM, but it's 100% up to the GM. But someone with Utility belt can flip a D-point and get anything within a certain block of options and unless there's a darn good narrative reason for the gm to override it, it happens. 

You see a similar situation with other things. A GM can spend a Despair to cause a player to run out of ammo, but some weapons say 3 Threat will do too.

Anyone on the receiving end of a failed attack check can say they dodged, not just someone who used the Dodge talent.

 

And that's the question about reflect that's going to be totally up to the user. 

If I have the Improved talent, then I can use a despair or three threat to bounce a hit...ok.

What if I don't have the talent? Can I still generate a similar effect with a Despair? Book doesn't say I can't. And Despairs are supposed to be bad.

What if the attack against me generated threat, and that threat is used to inflict strain against a non-nemisis? That means it takes wounds. Would you not be able to flavor that as a reflect? I mean with a low WT minion a few threat->strain can easily cause removal from play...

Actually allowed our Jedi-esque character to "Reflect" a shot back at a stormtrooper sergeant when he rolled a Despair against her to "damage his weapon by one step". She was nowhere near buying a Lightsaber spec yet much less actually having Reflect. Really set a mood that session, everyone loved it.

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1 hour ago, Ghostofman said:

And that's the question about reflect that's going to be totally up to the user. 

If I have the Improved talent, then I can use a despair or three threat to bounce a hit...ok.

What if I don't have the talent? Can I still generate a similar effect with a Despair? Book doesn't say I can't. And Despairs are supposed to be bad.

Stop there. "The rules don't say I can't" is a hallmark battlecry of a rules lawyer. If you don't have the talent, then you can't do what the talent allows. Otherwise, why have the talent at all?

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1 hour ago, Ghostofman said:

But pulling a useful gadget out if things air is a hallmark of a techie.

It's not about the hallmark anyway, it's about the mechanics and narrative.

Anyone can pull a useful gadget out of thin air by flipping a D-point and getting a thumbs up from the GM, but it's 100% up to the GM. But someone with Utility belt can flip a D-point and get anything within a certain block of options and unless there's a darn good narrative reason for the gm to override it, it happens. 

You see a similar situation with other things. A GM can spend a Despair to cause a player to run out of ammo, but some weapons say 3 Threat will do too.

Anyone on the receiving end of a failed attack check can say they dodged, not just someone who used the Dodge talent.

 

And that's the question about reflect that's going to be totally up to the user. 

If I have the Improved talent, then I can use a despair or three threat to bounce a hit...ok.

What if I don't have the talent? Can I still generate a similar effect with a Despair? Book doesn't say I can't. And Despairs are supposed to be bad.

What if the attack against me generated threat, and that threat is used to inflict strain against a non-nemisis? That means it takes wounds. Would you not be able to flavor that as a reflect? I mean with a low WT minion a few threat->strain can easily cause removal from play...

 

29 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Stop there. "The rules don't say I can't" is a hallmark battlecry of a rules lawyer. If you don't have the talent, then you can't do what the talent allows. Otherwise, why have the talent at all?

@HappyDaze nailed it. If a character does not have the proper talent or Force power to achieve a specific action that requires that talent or Force power, then, by RAW, he or she cannot accomplish that action. 

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1 hour ago, HappyDaze said:

Stop there. "The rules don't say I can't" is a hallmark battlecry of a rules lawyer. If you don't have the talent, then you can't do what the talent allows. Otherwise, why have the talent at all?

I'm not claiming my Jedi can shoot damage 50 lasers out of his eyes because the rules don't say he can't, I'm asking if a broader narrative situation has to be linked to a talent.

Which is why I bring up things like, Utility belt, heavy blasters, and Dodge. All those take an existing concept and set more defined conditions.

I can make any weapon run-out of ammo with a despair, no question. But a heavy blaster expands it to 3 threat.

Anyone can use a D-point to get gear under the right conditions, but utility belt sets details to expand it to allow a tech to pull a gadget out of his butt when needed, bypassing all but the most restrictive conditions.

And that's what I'm getting at. It's going to be up to the player and gm if Improved reflect is a hard stop, or additional conditions onto a broader concept. 

A battle droid shoots at a "Jedi" maybe a starter charater, or Padawan, or whatever you want to call it. That Battledroid rolls a despair. The player doesn't have Improved Reflect, but asks if he can use the despair to say he bounces that blaster bolt back and remove the Battledroid from play. If the GM approves in the same way as any other despair, why should that not work?

Now, improved reflect says things like how much threat will also work, and how to calculate damage, the viability of other targets,  what range, and so on. So it's got value in that expanded detail. And like Utility belt it sets conditions in exchange for always working within those conditions.

But it doesn't say that a despair, or any other condition that might see an opponent take damage or be removed from play can't be described as the result of a reflection, because of course it doesn't. Saying you can never describe a reflection without the talent ever is just as silly as saying someone without Dodge can never be described as dodging an attack. 

 

Edited by Ghostofman

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25 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

 

@HappyDaze nailed it. If a character does not have the proper talent or Force power to achieve a specific action that requires that talent or Force power, then, by RAW, he or she cannot accomplish that action. 

There are RAW effects that anyone can do, spending adversaries threat for strain which is wounds against a non nemesis, spending a despair to damage a weapon.  There's no reason those can't be narrated as reflecting a blaster bolt back at an attacker, and that's RAW legal.  

You still haven't proposed a cheaper movie capable jedi build.  Are you going to man up or eat your words.

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20 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

There are RAW effects that anyone can do, spending adversaries threat for strain which is wounds against a non nemesis, spending a despair to damage a weapon.  There's no reason those can't be narrated as reflecting a blaster bolt back at an attacker, and that's RAW legal.  

You still haven't proposed a cheaper movie capable jedi build.  Are you going to man up or eat your words.

Nope. My point still stands. Dedication is not required to “fast track” a competent “old school” movie Jedi, only a high enough Force Rating, the right skills ( which aren’t many), talents and Force powers, none of which require Dedication. So you can indeed build a movie style Jedi using any of the specs which grant two Increase Force Rating talents, along with Soresu Defender, Shien Expert, or Sentry just as quickly as with Niman Disciple and Sentry

Edited by Tramp Graphics

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3 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Nope. My point still stands. Dedication is not required to “fast track” a competent “old school” movie Jedi, only a high enough Force Rating, the right skills ( which aren’t many), talents and Force powers, none of which require Dedication. So you can indeed build a movie style Jedi using any of the specs which grant two Increase Force Rating talents, along with Soresu Defender, Shien Expert, or Sentry just as quickly as with Niman Disciple and Sentry

I accept your "no contest" admission  of defeat. ?

Maybe we watched different star wars movies, but in the ones I watched, the jedi (at least the jedi that got enough screen time to make an assessment about) could handle themselves ADEQUATELY in any situation that they found themselves in.

A movie quality jedi needs to start with a 3 in brawn, willpower, agility and whatever attribute they'll use for lightsaber.  They need 4 dice for their lightsaber attack and discipline (for using and resisting force powers) and either cool or vigilance (whichever theyll use for initiative) and it would be helpful to have 4 dice in mechanics, so they can make a good lightsaber.  And when I say 4 dice i means means at least 2 yellow.

So any 2 spec combo that doesn't involve niman-disciple actually does require 2 dedications, one for willpower (forcepowers like move, and vigilance) and the other for the lightsaber attribute (for human this is also covered by willpower).   For soresu defender you could make an attempt at this by putting the one dedication into willpower to cover discipline and vigilance and putting 4 ranks in the lightsaber skill but that's an expensive of at least 35 xp that you don't have to make with niman, and you'll be making do with 3 dice for mechanics when it comes time to build your lightsaber, for shien expert  you either won't even have 3 dice for mechanics checks or you'll be spending even more extra  xp.  So you guessed it that makes niman sentry the cheapest/quickest path.

The 2 spec combo involving niman is the only only one that doesn't really need the second dedication because it gets to use willpower as the "everything stat", so I  could have saved 25 xp by not taking it, I could have saved another 15 xp by not putting the second rank in mechanics, and I could have saved another 5 xp by putting the 2nd niman starting rank in lightsaber instead of negotiation but I think that adds a lot to the playability of the build, and I think that you missed the part where this was an rpg character, that someone had to play, in a campaign to get the 700 or so earned xp with the purpose of continuing to play it afterward.   A character who can't do anything but fight isn't going to be fun outside of combat.

Oh and did I mention that starting niman let's you put the required 2 ranks in discipline for free... yet another reason why it's the quickest/cheapest way to a movie quality jedi.  Technically the niman sentry combo only needs to spend 20 xp on skills to get to movie quality.   Come on Tramp man up or by default you eat your words.  Go on prove that niman-sentry isn't the quickest path to a movie quality jedi, "I triple dog dare you" (that was something that was said in high school 24+ years ago) it's time to put your proverbial money where your mouth is.

Edited by EliasWindrider

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7 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

A movie quality jedi needs to start with a 3 in brawn, willpower, agility and whatever attribute they'll use for lightsaber.  They need 4 dice for their lightsaber attack and discipline (for using and resisting force powers) and either cool or vigilance (whichever theyll use for initiative) and it would be helpful to have 4 dice in mechanics, so they can make a good lightsaber.  And when I say 4 dice i means means at least 2 yellow.

Judging from your posts here, you're a heavy powergamer. That's fine for a table that takes that into account, but for many of us, a Characteristic of 3 is actually high and having 4 dice in a skill is truly exceptional. As a result of this, I would argue that most Jedi likely had few or no ranks in Mechanics and made due with a basic hilt and minimal adjustments to it. Again, I'm not saying you are wrong for playing it the way you do at your table, but realize that not everyone sees it that way.

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1 minute ago, HappyDaze said:

Judging from your posts here, you're a heavy powergamer. That's fine for a table that takes that into account, but for many of us, a Characteristic of 3 is actually high and having 4 dice in a skill is truly exceptional. As a result of this, I would argue that most Jedi likely had few or no ranks in Mechanics and made due with a basic hilt and minimal adjustments to it. Again, I'm not saying you are wrong for playing it the way you do at your table, but realize that not everyone sees it that way.

The discussion wasn't about most jedi, it was about "movie quality jedi" i.e. the ones the movies focus on.  I'd be really be surprised if obiwan or anakin or even asoka didn't have at least a 4.

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6 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

The discussion wasn't about most jedi, it was about "movie quality jedi" i.e. the ones the movies focus on.  I'd be really be surprised if obiwan or anakin or even asoka didn't have at least a 4.

Ahsoka was never in the movies, but scores of Jedi were shown at Geonosis. They were all of movie quality, and I doubt all of them had the high ranks in many things that you support. Again, we have differing biases in how we perceive these things.

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1 hour ago, HappyDaze said:

Ahsoka was never in the movies, but scores of Jedi were shown at Geonosis. They were all of movie quality, and I doubt all of them had the high ranks in many things that you support. Again, we have differing biases in how we perceive these things.

There was a clone wars cgi animated movie that launched the clone wars cgi series, Ahsoka was in that.  The scores of jedi in the arena at genosis didn't get enough screen time to assess how broadly capable they were, and "movie quality" by definition pertains to what only we can assess from onscreen evidence, what doesn't get seen doesn't get considered what does get seen does get considered, so the definition of movie quality naturally skews to protagonists over background characters.

Also if you looked at the build I posted, the maximum number of ranks in any skill was 2, I wouldn't call 2 "high ranks" now the alternative builds Tramp proposed would need high ranks in lightsaber to match the niman-disciple/sentry build but that's just part of what makes the niman-disciple/sentry build the quickest option and technically I spent at least 45 xp more than strictly necessary by the movie quality standard.

Edited by EliasWindrider

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