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3 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Obiwan as a general during the clone wars had brawn 3, agility 3, intellect 5, cunning 5, willpower 4, presence 4,

Somehow the 3 3 4 2 4 2 statline for my 2 spec newbie jedi knight doesn't seem so exceptional now.

Dooku 3 3 5 5 4 5 would pwn your standardized jedi.

Edited by Eoen

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9 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

You’re only 6 dedications away from being a general ?

Hey Tramp's build is 7 dedications away from being a general, that means I out rank him and can order him to admit he's wrong and then throw him in the brig for insubordination when he refuses, ?

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5 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Hey Tramp's build is 7 dedications away from being a general, that means I out rank him and can order him to admit he's wrong and then throw him in the brig for insubordination when he refuses, ?

Or it just means you're closer to being an NPC...

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15 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

One definition of standard is norm or typical , anakin is not typical, I never claimed he was.

Another definition, the technical one, is a unit of measurement like a foot or pound or second or gallon, it is a reference point, other objects are measured by comparing them against the standard.  Because everyone gets compared to Anakin (and that happens because he is an exceptional or a  model) that makes him the standard (he is the unit of measurement)

He also is/sets the standard because of his high even exceptional level of achievement (yeah that's another definition of standard)

 

By either definition, Anakin is not the standard. First, The other Jedi aren't measured against Anakin. Anakin is measured against the others. His Midichlorian count was measured against Master Yoda's (the one originally known to have the highest count in the Order at the time). No one says Yoda is less powerful than Anakin, or so and so is less skilled than Anakin. It's always "Anakin is more powerful than so and so", "Anakin is more skilled than So and so". No Jedi is measured against Anakin. Anakin is measured against the baseline standard Jedi. He is not the unit of measure. He is not the norm. The norm is what is always used as the unit of measure. What is typical is what is always used as the unit of measure when making a comparison, not the exception. You make comparisons based upon what is typical, not what is the exception. 

The unit of measure for the Jedi is the minimum requirements for passing the tests and trials. It is the norm of what a Jedi needs to be, not what the most powerful member of the order is. 

 

If you want to describe what a "standard" Jedi Knight is, you do not use the Chosen One as your example. The Chosen one is not a standard Jedi Knight. You use the typical Jedi of the era; the "standard" Jedi. 

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2 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

By either definition, Anakin is not the standard. First, The other Jedi aren't measured against Anakin. Anakin is measured against the others. His Midichlorian count was measured against Master Yoda's (the one originally known to have the highest count in the Order at the time). No one says Yoda is less powerful than Anakin, or so and so is less skilled than Anakin. It's always "Anakin is more powerful than so and so", "Anakin is more skilled than So and so". No Jedi is measured against Anakin. Anakin is measured against the baseline standard Jedi. He is not the unit of measure. He is not the norm. The norm is what is always used as the unit of measure. What is typical is what is always used as the unit of measure when making a comparison, not the exception. You make comparisons based upon what is typical, not what is the exception. 

The unit of measure for the Jedi is the minimum requirements for passing the tests and trials. It is the norm of what a Jedi needs to be, not what the most powerful member of the order is. 

 

If you want to describe what a "standard" Jedi Knight is, you do not use the Chosen One as your example. The Chosen one is not a standard Jedi Knight. You use the typical Jedi of the era; the "standard" Jedi. 

Of course you realize that you invalidated this claim when you initially, without prompting, compared the build to Anakin... so you lose the argument, too bad so sad?

Edited by EliasWindrider

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46 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Of course you realize that you invalidated this claim when you initially, without prompting, compared the build to Anakin... so you lose the argument, too bad so sad?

Nope. I never claimed Anakin as the standard for comparison. Just the opposite. From a The very beginning I have said that characters such as Anakin, Obi Wan and Yoda are not the standard to measure what a movie style Jedi is measured by. Rather, it’s the secondary and tertiary characters, like Aayla Secura, and Quinlan Vos, the “typical” Jedi of the era that we need to use as the basis of comparison. 

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17 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Nope. I never claimed Anakin as the standard for comparison. Just the opposite. From a The very beginning I have said that characters such as Anakin, Obi Wan and Yoda are not the standard to measure what a movie style Jedi is measured by. Rather, it’s the secondary and tertiary characters, like Aayla Secura, and Quinlan Vos, the “typical” Jedi of the era that we need to use as the basis of comparison. 

You straight out compared my build to Anakin and Obiwan, they're your reference point whether you used the word "standard" or not it still proves the point.

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5 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

You straight out compared my build to Anakin and Obiwan, they're your reference point whether you used the word "standard" or not it still proves the point.

No they’re not. That was my whole point. You are using those characters as the standard to build from. My whole point was that those characters are not the standard to build a “typical” movie style Jedi. They’re overkill. A typical movie style Jedi is someone like the other Jedi I mentioned. It is those Jedi we should be using as the basis for comparison, not the main leads, all of whom are way overpowered.

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In fact, @EliasWindrider, you were the one to first use Anakin as your basis for comparison. My very first statement regarding the use of him, Obi-Wan, etc. for comparison was:

On 7/30/2018 at 3:36 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

 

@HappyDaze nailed it. A "movie style" Jedi does not "need" to be as "powerful" as you make it out to be. Ob-Wan, and Anakin, were exceptions, not the standard. The same with Yoda. 

It was you who said: 

 

On 7/29/2018 at 10:39 PM, EliasWindrider said:

The discussion wasn't about most jedi, it was about "movie quality jedi" i.e. the ones the movies focus on.  I'd be really be surprised if obiwan or anakin or even asoka didn't have at least a 4.

Thus, you, not I, who tried to use the most powerful Jedi in the order as the standard to measure from , not the typical Jedi of the era, such as Aayla Secura, Quinlan Vos, or Ki Adi Mundi, who are what I said are a more accurate basis for comparison. 

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5 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No they’re not. That was my whole point. You are using those characters as the standard to build from. My whole point was that those characters are not the standard to build a “typical” movie style Jedi. They’re overkill. A typical movie style Jedi is someone like the other Jedi I mentioned. It is those Jedi we should be using as the basis for comparison, not the main leads, all of whom are way overpowered.

You said it unprompted so you lose.  However if you look at obiwan's specs from rise of the separatists I'm nowhere close to that, which invalidates your assessment that it was obiwan and anakin like but you went there anyway.  And what I said was I was trying to get as close as I could to them in 2 specs but I thought my build still fell short.

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1 minute ago, EliasWindrider said:

You said it unprompted so you lose.  However if you look at obiwan's specs from rise of the separatists I'm nowhere close to that, which invalidates your assessment that it was obiwan and anakin like but you went there anyway.  And what I said was I was trying to get as close as I could to them in 2 specs but I thought my build still fell short.

No I didn’t, as my last post proves. 

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45 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No I didn’t, as my last post proves. 

I went back and looked, yes I did bring up Anakin obiwan and Ahsoka first. I mis remembered that, I was using them as my reference point, it's a weaker proof of the point that they are a reference point.  However my statement was I would be surprised that they didn't have at least a 4 and BTW I've been more than vindicated on that regards by obiwan's specs in rise of the separatists which my build is nowhere close to.  And I did not *equate* my build to those characters, I specifically said my build doesn't measure up to those characters.

Of course the fact that anakin got compared to yoda makes yoda the standard which proves my point about there being multiple definitions of "standard" anyway.?

 

Edited by EliasWindrider

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49 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

You two must have had great conversations when you gamed together. Have the other players in that game finished their therapy yet?

There were no other players. It was a solo campaign, and I was GM. 

30 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

I went back and looked, yes I did bring up Anakin obiwan and Ahsoka first. I mis remembered that, I was using them as my reference point, it's a weaker proof of the point that they are a reference point.  However my statement was I would be surprised that they didn't have at least a 4 and BTW I've been more than vindicated on that regards by obiwan's specs in rise of the separatists which my build is nowhere close to.  And I did not *equate* my build to those characters, I specifically said my build doesn't measure up to those characters.

 

Exactly. You were using the most powerful Jedi as the point of comparison, not a typical Jedi from the movies. Regardless of the specializations used, you went overkill compared to the typical Jedi of the era. A typical Jedi of that era doesn’t need at least one 4, it doesn’t require having purchased any Dedication talents. All a typical movie style Jedi Knight needs to have is a Force Rating of 3 with Enhance (with Force Leap),  Move with at least one Strength and (preferably) Magnitude upgrade, Seek, Sense, and Foresee, a couple of ranks in Lightsaber and Lore, a few ranks in the Reflect and/or Parry talents, along with their respective Improved versions. Everything else is gravy

Edited by Tramp Graphics

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36 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

There were no other players. It was a solo campaign, and I was GM. 

Exactly. You were using the most powerful Jedi as the point of comparison, not a typical Jedi from the movies. Regardless of the specializations used, you went overkill compared to the typical Jedi of the era. A typical Jedi of that era doesn’t need at least one 4, it doesn’t require having purchased any Dedication talents. All a typical movie style Jedi Knight needs to have is a Force Rating of 3 with Enhance (with Force Leap),  Move with at least one Strength and (preferably) Magnitude upgrade, Seek, Sense, and Foresee, a couple of ranks in Lightsaber and Lore, a few ranks in the Reflect and/or Parry talents, along with their respective Improved versions. Everything else is gravy

Of course the fact that anakin got compared to yoda makes yoda the reference/standard proving that there are multiple definitions of standard.

(You really stepped in that one, but somehow it doesn't surprise me that you didn't see it coming and avoid bringing it up)

And since we're not going to agree on which definition of standard to use, and therefore won't agree on the qualities that a "standard" jedi should have, the only way to resolve the dispute about whether niman-disciple/sentry is the most efficient way to build a movie quality jedi, which I will agree to let you use "standard" as a synonym for for the purpose of resolving the dispute, is to pick a fixed amount of earned xp (700) and compare builds on how broadly capable they are, because that can be judged objectively without agreeing on a definition of standard. 

Btw if you looked at obiwan's stats from rise of the separatists, my build seems underwhelming rather than overkill.

Also you introduced the word standard to this debate, which is about movie quality jedi without the "typical" modifier.  Anakin and obiwan are still the archetypal movie jedi simply because they get the most screen time.

Edited by EliasWindrider

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Anakin was compared to Yoda because of his extraordinarily high Midichlorian count and Yoda’s midichlorian count was the next highest. As Obi Wan said, “Not even Master Yoda has a midichlorian count that high.” Master Yoda, as the most powerful Jedi Master in the Order, and its Grandmaster, was known, at the time, to have the highest midichlorian count of any Jedi in the Order. Anakin’s count blew his out of the water. That was the comparison. It wasn’t a measure against the typical Jedi of the day. 

Your assertion that you have to use a set XP level to make a comparison is fundamentally flawed because it doesn’t answer the underlying question. All it does is see who can make a more powerful build for less. That’s a moot point and not the issue. 

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48 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Your assertion that you have to use a set XP level to make a comparison is fundamentally flawed because it doesn’t answer the underlying question. All it does is see who can make a more powerful build for less. That’s a moot point and not the issue. 

Let me just repeat your phrase "a more powerful build for less"

Doing more with less is pretty much the definition of efficiency

You're phrasing, use of the word "powerful", however makes it seems like you're only considering combat ability which is definitely not my intent with "broadly capable"

And my assertion is, when we can't agree on a definition of movie quality jedi (which I will let you use "standard" as a synonym for for the purpose of resolving this dispute), how much you can do with a fixed xp total is the only objective way to resolve the dispute about whether or not niman-disciple/sentry is the most EFFICIENT way to build a movie quality jedi.

Btw Anakin in aotc thought he was already better than yoda with a saber to which obiwan replied "not hardly" so your assertion that yoda was ONLY used as a basis of comparison because he had the second highest midichlorian count is bogus.

By the way the lead in was obiwan saying something to the effect of "if you practiced with your saber as much as you practiced your whit you would be better than yoda." So it wasn't just Anakin's ego talking.

Edited by EliasWindrider

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No, it isn’t. All it does is see who can make a stronger or more skilled/ talented character for a set amount. The only way to create a true comparison of the most efficient build for a typical movie style Jedi is to set specific parameters based upon what is the standard Jedi of the era that we see on film and in fiction (the majority of the Jedi) and see who can match that criteria with the fewest XP. 

Edited by Tramp Graphics

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Well the original issue was you said niman was a poor tree. The best way to see that would be a series of fights using characters with only the talents from niman and 1 of each the other trees and basic equipment.

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