Ten/Marskmanship/Ion against Draw Their Fire

[StephenEsven 632]

You seem to think that DTF has a trigger and happens in Step 6.

Yes I do. DTF triggers at the end of the compare results step.

And ion cannon triggers during that step. So the result is the same as if it triggered during the deal damage step as I think it does. There are no uncancelled crit results. So There is no trigger for DtF.

[StephenEsven 632]

Cos or is actually a good example. He shares a lot of text with DtF, except the hit part. So would you argue that his ability triggers in Step 6 or 7? Again I say step 7 deal damage. Same as DtF.

[dvorm 1,058]

 

 

You seem to think that DTF has a trigger and happens in Step 6.

Yes I do. DTF triggers at the end of the compare results step.

And ion cannon triggers during that step.

Both abilities trigger at the same time: After the fact is established that the defender is hit. Both abilities need to resolve simultaneously. Which means the player with initiative resolves his ability first.

[Parravon 5,217]

 

 

 

You seem to think that DTF has a trigger and happens in Step 6.

Yes I do. DTF triggers at the end of the compare results step.

And ion cannon triggers during that step.

Both abilities trigger at the same time: After the fact is established that the defender is hit. Both abilities need to resolve simultaneously. Which means the player with initiative resolves his ability first.

I don't think both abilities need to resolve, because DtF is an optional card, not a mandatory ability. It says "you may suffer 1 of the uncancelled..."

 

So the attacker can't make the defender use DtF just because he's got the initiative, and why would you want to voluntarily interrupt the Ion Cannon to suck away and suffer a crit when the Ion Cannon is about to cancel it and the defender wasn't going to suffer it anyway? And this is assuming that if you do interrupt and soak the crit, that it does now make it to Step 7 to actually deal a damage card. It's not like you can change the fact the ship is hit or missed by using DtF, because that's already been established.

 

As the defender, one ship is going to suffer a damage and an ion token. Why compound it by giving another of your ships critical damage, that you don't need to take to start with?

 

If the defender doesn't have the initiative, DtF is redundant as there's no uncancelled crits to worry about.

 

So basically if you're defending and have the initiative, you'd be nuts to use DtF, and if you don't have the initiative you can't use DtF.

[dvorm 1,058]

 

 

 

 

You seem to think that DTF has a trigger and happens in Step 6.

Yes I do. DTF triggers at the end of the compare results step.

And ion cannon triggers during that step.

Both abilities trigger at the same time: After the fact is established that the defender is hit. Both abilities need to resolve simultaneously. Which means the player with initiative resolves his ability first.

I don't think both abilities need to resolve, because DtF is an optional card, not a mandatory ability. It says "you may suffer 1 of the uncancelled..."

The entire discussion assumes that the defender exercises his option to trigger DTF.

 

Buhallin already explained in post #2 that there is nothing to be gained by using DTF and that the discussion is purely academic.

 

Previous discussions established that there is no consensus whether or not the DTF-ship suffers the critical damage.

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

Even if theoretically DTF may activate on a hit that includes at least one critical result, its true resolution can only be achieved in the step 7: Deal damage.

 

Only when dealing damage, the DTF ship may choose to suffer an uncancelled [crit] result instead of the defender. Neither ship (DTF or Defender) can begin to suffer damage from dice results before this step.

 

But all Ion effects happen and are resolved in the step 6: Compare results.

 

 

Thus, the order is:

 

6 - Compare results: Defender is hit. He suffers Ion damage and Ion token. Then all results are cancelled.

7 - Deal damage: Now the DTF may choose to suffer an uncancelled [crit] result. But since all results were cancelled in the previous step there's nothing to choose from.  

[dvorm 1,058]

Even if theoretically DTF may activate on a hit that includes at least one critical result, its true resolution can only be achieved in the step 7: Deal damage.

 

That's not true.

Nothing forces you to move an uncanceled die result to a different ship during step 7. It can be done earlier.

The DTF-trigger is after the ship is hit. That's not during step 7. It's at the end of step 6. DTF has to resolve at the end of step 6. The ion weapon effect resolves at exactly the same moment.

 

Moving a die result and suffering damage are not the same.

[StephenEsven 632]

[qoute]Moving a die result and suffering damage are not the same.

Exactly. And DtF does not move a dice result. It allows you to suffer a critical on behalf of another ship at Range 1 if that ship was hit by an attack. And suffering damage happens in Step 7. You draw the critical damage card and assign it to the ship with DtF rather than the defending ship.

And since ion cannon made sure that there are no uncancelled dice, the defender does not suffer any uncancelled critical hits, and thus does not allow DtF to trigger.

[dvorm 1,058]

[qoute]Moving a die result and suffering damage are not the same.

Exactly. And DtF does not move a dice result. It allows you to suffer a critical on behalf of another ship at Range 1 if that ship was hit by an attack.

The trigger condition for DTF is a ship being hit. That's at the end of step 6. DTF has to resolve at that point.

 

Like I said before: There is no consensus.

[StephenEsven 632]

I just dug out this from the FAQ, Page 8

Suffer Damage vs Deal a Damage Card

An ability or game effect that causes a ship to suffer damage is different from

that ship being dealt a Damage card. Suffering damage occurs as described

on pg 16 of the core rulebook, and this damage is applied to shields first as

normal. A ship that is dealt a damage card is simply assigned that damage

card, regardless of how many shields it has remaining. For example, the effect

of Proton Bombs deals one faceup Damage card. Damage cards dealt in this

way cannot be canceled by evade tokens, redirected by Draw Their Fire, etc.

 

 

This should make it clear that DtF triggers off of suffering the damage, not the hit itself. DtF redirects the damage the defender is about to suffer. Which happens in step 7 Deal Damage.

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

 

Even if theoretically DTF may activate on a hit that includes at least one critical result, its true resolution can only be achieved in the step 7: Deal damage.

 

That's not true.

Nothing forces you to move an uncanceled die result to a different ship during step 7. It can be done earlier.

The DTF-trigger is after the ship is hit. That's not during step 7. It's at the end of step 6. DTF has to resolve at the end of step 6. The ion weapon effect resolves at exactly the same moment.

 

Moving a die result and suffering damage are not the same.

 

But that's not how the DTF card works.

 

The card doesn't say anything about "moving" results or adjudicating hits. The card refers specifically to suffering damage and it only changes who suffers the damage from a single uncancelled dice [crit] result.

 

And the undeniable fact is that ships can only suffer damage from uncancelled dice results in the step 7. 

 

As said, DTF may trigger when a ship is hit, but can only be resolved in the step 7, when all Ion effects -including cancelling dice- were already solved in the previous step 6 (Compare Results).

 

There are other effects in the game in which trigger and resolution take place in different steps, or phases, or even rounds.

[dvorm 1,058]

DtF redirects the damage the defender is about to suffer.

It doesn't.

 

"... may suffer one of the uncancelled  results ..." redirects the uncancelled die, not any damage.

 

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

... may SUFFER one the uncancelled [crit] results INSTEAD OF THE TARGET SHIP.

 

Which implies that the target ship was about to suffer the [crit] result in the step 7, and the DTF ship suffers it in its place.

 

 

DTF redirects who suffers the damage, not the die result.

[dvorm 1,058]

There's no way around the trigger condition: When a ship is hit. For that reason alone DTF has to resolve at the end of step six.

 

... may SUFFER one the uncancelled [crit] results INSTEAD OF THE TARGET SHIP.

 

Which implies that the target ship was about to suffer the [crit] result in the step 7, and the DTF ship suffers it in its place.

 

 

DTF redirects who suffers the damage, not the die result.

Combine resolving at the end of step 6 with an argument that DTF transfers damage, and the result is that the DTF-ship suffers critical damage at the end of step six before the ion cannon card text resolves.

 

That's one way to look at it. Which, once again, shows that there is no consensus.

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

There's no way around the trigger condition: When a ship is hit. For that reason alone DTF has to resolve at the end of step six.

No one is going around the trigger condition.

The card triggers when a friendly ship is hit (step 6). But It resolves when that friendly ship suffers damage (Step 7). You are assuming that every effect in the game has to be resolved right when it's triggered, which is plainly wrong because it may or not may be the case, according to each especific effect.

As said, there are effects that have its trigger and resolution ocurring at different times. Wheter steps, phases or rounds.

Expose: Trigger: Taking the expose action (Activation Phase step 6) // Resolution: Adding an extra red die (Attack Phase Step 5).

Damaged cockpit Trigger: Recieving the card face-up (Current Round). Resolution: Next activation phase (Next Round).

Ion Effect (maneuver): Trigger: recieving an ion token (Current Round). Resolution: No dial reveal (Next Round).

Lone Wolf: Trigger: Declaring target or being declared as target (Attack Step 1). Resolution: Modify dice step (Attack Step 3 or 5).

and so,

Draw their Fire: Trigger: A friendly ship is hit (Attack Step 6). Resolution: Deal Damage step (Attack Step 7).

Edited February 15, 2015 by Jehan Menasis

[StephenEsven 632]

There's no way around the trigger condition: When a ship is hit. For that reason alone DTF has to resolve at the end of step six.

 

... may SUFFER one the uncancelled [crit] results INSTEAD OF THE TARGET SHIP.

 

Which implies that the target ship was about to suffer the [crit] result in the step 7, and the DTF ship suffers it in its place.

 

 

DTF redirects who suffers the damage, not the die result.

Combine resolving at the end of step 6 with an argument that DTF transfers damage, and the result is that the DTF-ship suffers critical damage at the end of step six before the ion cannon card text resolves.

 

That's one way to look at it. Which, once again, shows that there is no consensus.

It's convenient only to quote the part of the trigger you want to be true.

 

But as Jehan correctly points out, there is more to the trigger that being hit. Namely that the target is about to suffer an uncancelled critical hit from the attack. I have earlier pointed out that the part about being hit is to prevent DtF from triggering off of suffering damage from other sources than an attack. This I then also quoted from the FAQ, where the heading alone should prove that DtF works by redirecting the suffered damage, and not off of the Hit state alone.

[dvorm 1,058]

 

There's no way around the trigger condition: When a ship is hit. For that reason alone DTF has to resolve at the end of step six.

No one is going around the trigger condition.

The card triggers when a friendly ship is hit (step 6). But It resolves when that friendly ship suffers damage (Step 7). You are assuming that every effect in the game has to be resolved right when it's triggered ...

Yes I am.

 

 

Expose: Trigger: Taking the expose action (Activation Phase step 6) // Resolution: Adding an extra red die (Attack Phase Step 5).

Damaged cockpit Trigger: Recieving the card face-up (Current Round). Resolution: Next activation phase (Next Round).

Ion Effect (maneuver): Trigger: recieving an ion token (Current Round). Resolution: No dial reveal (Next Round).

Lone Wolf: Trigger: Declaring target or being declared as target (Attack Step 1). Resolution: Modify dice step (Attack Step 3 or 5).

Expose:

Changes agility and attack values now. While performing the action. Not later.

The new values stay in play for some time.

 

Damaged cockpit

Trigger condition: "After the round in which you receive the card."

The effect starts when the trigger condition is met: At the start of the next game round.

 

Ion effect:

Receiving a token (ion, stress, evade, focus, TL) does nothing but assign the token to the ship.

Having a ion token (for whatever reason) triggers various effects, listed separately on the ion token reference card. Each of those effects has a trigger condition (planning phase, activation phase, combat phase) and resolves at the time that trigger condition is met.

 

Lone Wolf:

A good number of effects (not only lone wolf) trigger when attacking or defending. They resolve at the appropriate moment during the attack. The trigger condition is not one precise moment in time but the full duration of the attack.

[dvorm 1,058]

But as Jehan correctly points out, there is more to the trigger that being hit. Namely that the target is about to suffer an uncancelled critical hit from the attack.

Of course there has to be an uncancelled  result in the common area. That goes without saying.

Edit:

Without that result, DTF fails to execute.

 

 

when a certain condition is met.

 

That is the definition of a trigger.

 

DTF's text is

 

When a friendly ship at Range 1 is hit by an attack, you may suffer 1 of the uncanceled results instead of the target ship.

 

When "X" happens you may do "Y" is a standard format. "X" is the trigger, "Y" is the effect.

 

 

Trigger condition: "When a friendly ship at Range 1 is hit by an attack ..."

Effect: "... you may suffer 1 of the uncanceled results instead of the target ship."

Edited February 15, 2015 by dvor

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

DtF does not move a dice result.

 

Um, yes it does. DTF allows another ship to "suffer an uncancelled kaboom result", a kaboom is a dice result, which DTF moves to another ship.

 

 

 

 

 

And the undeniable fact is that ships can only suffer damage from uncancelled dice results in the step 7. 

 

There are several abilities that cause damage without an attack and so don't use the attack procedure. Seismic Charges, Prox Mines, Vader(crew). Step 7 of the attack sequence is not needed for a ship to suffer damage.

 

I guess the real (but still purely academic) question comes down to; Is the kaboom result suffered by the DTF ship combat damage or non-combat damage created by an upgrade card?

[StephenEsven 632]

 

DtF does not move a dice result.

 

Um, yes it does. DTF allows another ship to "suffer an uncancelled kaboom result", a kaboom is a dice result, which DTF moves to another ship.

 

Technically the dice results are just dice in the common area. They do not belong to the attacking or defending ship. The defender then suffers damage based on dice results in step 7 Deal Damage. And with Ion Cannon there are no uncancelled dice results in the common area in step 7. And as Dvor stated above, it goes without saying that there has to be critical hit results in the common area fro DtF to trigger.

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

That isn't what he said. He said it goes without saying that without a kaboom result the EFFECT fails to work. DTF would still trigger, and then not do anything.

[StephenEsven 632]

That isn't what he said. He said it goes without saying that without a kaboom result the EFFECT fails to work. DTF would still trigger, and then not do anything.

 No ability in the game triggers and does nothing. If something triggers, there is an effect. Otherwise it didn't trigger.

 

Even spending a focus to change 0 dice, does have an effect. Removing the token from the play area. Which we know can trigger abilities like Garven Dreis.

 

If you were right, someone might actually decide to suffer the crit, in order to trigger other abilities. Which is why this discussion if not irrelevant. Because I believe you do not get the opportunity at all.

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

Expose

Changes agility and attack values now. While performing the action. Not later.

The new values stay in play for some time.

 

Ah, my bad, expose changes values, not adds/substract dice. (Guess how much times I take the card). But even that illustrates my point. Expose is just an example of an ability that resolves at the same time it is triggered, unlike many other ones, including Draw Their Fire.

 

 

Damaged cockpit

Trigger condition: "After the round in which you receive the card."

The effect starts when the trigger condition is met: At the start of the next game round.

 

Conditions are not triggers. Conditions define if the trigger is valid or invalid. If the condition is not met, the effect cannot take place, even if the trigger happened. For example: In Draw their fire, the trigger is a friendly ship being hit. The condition is the friendly ship being at range 1.

 

 

Ion effect:

Receiving a token (ion, stress, evade, focus, TL) does nothing but assign the token to the ship.

Having a ion token (for whatever reason) triggers various effects, listed separately on the ion token reference card. Each of those effects has a trigger condition (planning phase, activation phase, combat phase) and resolves at the time that trigger condition is met.

 

Again you confound triggers with conditions.

Ion doesn't have conditions. There's nothing like "If X happens/doesn't happen, then ion works/doesn't work"

 

Ion effect only changes what the ioned ship does at specific times (steps) of its planning and activation phase. Still, the effect takes place a round later in which the token was gained, or in other words, its -several- effects don't take place at the precise moment you have the ion token for the first time, but later.

 

 

Lone Wolf:

A good number of effects (not only lone wolf) trigger when attacking or defending. They resolve at the appropriate moment during the attack. The trigger condition is not one precise moment in time but the full duration of the attack.

 

 You are attacking the moment you declare a target. (Step 1). You are defending the moment you are declared as a target (Step 1). Thus, Lone Wolf is triggered at step 1. (when attacking or defending).

Then, it comes the condition -which you seem to have trouble to differentiate from triggers-: "If there are no other ships at range 1-2."

And then the effect, You may reroll 1 of your blank results. The reroll is performed is the step 3 (if you are attacking) or in the step 5 (if you are defending).

 

Thus, the trigger and the resolution of the effect take place at different steps.

 

Just like in Draw Their Fire. The trigger happens in the step 6 (compare results) and the effect in the step 7 (Deal damage).

 

 

 

DtF does not move a dice result.

 

Um, yes it does. DTF allows another ship to "suffer an uncancelled kaboom result", a kaboom is a dice result, which DTF moves to another ship.

 

Again no. DTF doesn't move the result to another ship. It lets another ship SUFFER the critical hit instead of the original target.

Suffering damage doesn't happen in the compare results step. It happens in the Deal Damage step.

 

 

 

And the undeniable fact is that ships can only suffer damage from uncancelled dice results in the step 7. 

 

There are several abilities that cause damage without an attack and so don't use the attack procedure. Seismic Charges, Prox Mines, Vader(crew). Step 7 of the attack sequence is not needed for a ship to suffer damage.

 

I guess the real (but still purely academic) question comes down to; Is the kaboom result suffered by the DTF ship combat damage or non-combat damage created by an upgrade card?

 

 

And that's why I specifically said damage from UNCANCELLED DICE results.

 

Uncancelled dice come exclusively from the attack sequence.

 

All those other forms of suffering damage that you mention are not 'attacks'. And because of that, aren't susceptible to cancellation either.

 

However, DTF, specifically mentions 'uncancelled crit results' which can only derive from the attack sequence. Hence, in DTF, the step 7 is not only needed, it's mandatory.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Jehan Menasis

[FNG tie pilot 123]

Wow. Didn't think I would cause this kind of argument, but I'm glad to see its not just me that was confused on the timing/resolutions/triggers on these cards. Maybe we'll get some clarification in an updated FAQ

[Parravon 5,217]

I can't believe they're getting so hot about a "never-gonna-happen" scenario. And that's probably why I doubt we'll see it clarified in the FAQ. It doesn't need to be. If you've got DtF and initiative, you'd be nuts to use it, and if you haven't got initiative, it's not going to happen.