Ten/Marskmanship/Ion against Draw Their Fire

[FNG tie pilot 123]

So let's say that Ten (with Marksmanship and Ion Cannon) is shooting at 2 Falcons with Draw Their Fire.

Ten rolls Crit, Blank, Blank at Chewie. Lando draws the Crit away from Chewie.

Does the Ion's "cancel all die results" happen before Draw Their Fire has an opportunity to trigger?

Ten says you can't cancel with evades, meaning Draw Their Fire should trigger off of the uncancelled Crit....but if this works before Ion cancels all die results, then the question becomes "who gets the Ion token?"

[Buhallin 4,563]

The ion result is based entirely on whether the defender was hit or not - a ship is hit based entirely on the presence of uncanceled hit or crit results.  If you move a crit via DTF, the defender is still hit, even if that crit was the only one.  In fact, you can't use DTF unless the target was hit, and moving that crit does nothing to change that.  So the ion has met its conditions, and the defender gets a token and a damage.

 

What happens to the crit?  Nobody really knows   There are a couple of possible interpretations on the detailed timing.  But the results range from "Absolutely nothing" to "Congratulations, you just created a critical damage for yourself from thin air!"  Since there's no benefit to it, the defender should never do it, so it's a purely academic question.

[StephenEsven 632]

DTF never gets to trigger.

Ion Cannon deals 1 damage and 1 ion token in Step 6. Then it cancels all dice results. So when you get to step 7 there are no uncancelled dice to suffer. And thus also no uncancelled crits for DTF to move.

Edited February 14, 2015 by StephenEsven

[dvorm 1,058]

DTF never gets to trigger.

Ion Cannon deals 1 damage and 1 ion token in Step 6. Then it cancels all dice results. So when you get to step 7 there are no uncancelled dice to suffer. And thus also no uncancelled crits for DTF to move.

DTF definitely triggers.

DTF and ion effect trigger at the same time (when a ship is hit by an attack). DTF may resolve first, depending on initiative.

 

One side argues that DTF says you suffer the result, i.e. you suffer damage now. Before the ion card starts resolving.

The other side argues that even if you pull the result onto yourself, you do not suffer damage immediately. So ion resolves and cancels the result before you suffer damage.

 

There is no consensus.

[StephenEsven 632]

No DTF can be triggered when another ship is about to suffer a critical damage. The card clearly states that you can suffer the uncancelled crits in stead of the target. And since ion cannon cancelled all dice no ship suffers any damage from dice. The part about the ship being hit is to prevent the ship from pulling damage from other sources such as obstacles.

[DraconPyrothayan 6,107]

DTF and Ion Cannon resolve simultaneously. This goes thusly.

 

There is an uncancelled Crit result. The target is Hit.

DTF lets the crit damage be suffered by that other ship.

Ion Cannon cancels all dice results, and deals one damage and one Ion token to the ship that was attacked.

 

 

There is some debate as to whether the ship with DTF suffers a crit as well, but DTF definitely does not change that the defender was Hit, and therefore doesn't prevent the 1 damage + Token from the Ion Cannon.

[dvorm 1,058]

No DTF can be triggered when another ship is about to suffer a critical damage.

True.

The trigger condition is a ship being hit.

 

 

The card clearly states that you can suffer the uncancelled crits in stead of the target. And since ion cannon cancelled all dice no ship suffers any damage from dice.

You seem to assume that the ion cannon card text resolves first, before DTF. Try to resolve the DTF card text before the ion cannon card text even starts resolving! That assumes the defender has initiative.

[StephenEsven 632]

You seem to think that DTF has a trigger and happens in Step 6. That is where you are mistaken. DTF is not triggered. It is a voluntary choose to use the ability when a certain condition is met. That condition is another ship at Range 1 suffering a Critical Hit from an attack. Suffering damage happens in Step 7, and here you can choose to suffer the Crit instead of the other ship suffering the Crit.

But there are no uncancelled Crits left, because Ion cannon cancelled them in Step 6

[StevenO 2,996]

If you're having a lot of trouble with the DtF situation just look at Blount with the Ion Pulse missile.  He attacks and he hits, what was actually rolled isn't going to make any difference because the missile's conditions were met so the target will suffer one damage and get two ion tokens.

 

Look at an Ion Cannon attack rolling a [kaboom] which is uncancelled by dice so it hits but is then pulled to some other ship would leave you in the same situation.  The targeted ship suffers the ion effects and what ever else the card does with most of them cancelling the dice result.

 

Now the Ion Torpedo is actually an interesting case.  If Ten fires one of those and lands a [kaboom] the target will be hit but another ship with DtF could suffer the [kaboom].  In this case Ion Tokens are passed around according to the original target but the ship that pulled the [kaboom] actually has to suffer that as the Ion Torp doesn't cancel dice results like most of the other ion attacks.

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

when a certain condition is met.

That is the definition of a trigger.

DTF's text is

When a friendly ship at Range 1 is hit by an attack, you may suffer 1 of the uncanceled kaboom results instead of the target ship.

When "X" happens you may do "Y" is a standard format. "X" is the trigger, "Y" is the effect.

Edited February 15, 2015 by Forgottenlore

[Parravon 5,217]

Because the Ion cannon cancels all dice results, DTF doesn't really have anything to offer in the way of help. The target has to be hit for Ion damage to get applied, and DTF only triggers after that's been established and does nothing to lessen the damage. It's really quite pointless.

[StephenEsven 632]

 

when a certain condition is met.

 

That is the definition of a trigger.

 

DTF's text is

 

When a friendly ship at Range 1 is hit by an attack, you may suffer 1 of the uncanceled results instead of the target ship.

 

When "X" happens you may do "Y" is a standard format. "X" is the trigger, "Y" is the effect.

 

OK, lets call it a trigger. To me a trigger is something that has to happen, while a condition and optional ability is something that offers you a choice under certain conditions.

 

But in this case, what is the trigger? It would seem that most people here would argue it is "When a friendly ship at Range 1 is hit by an attack"

 

But it really isn't. The trigger is that the target ship at Range 1 is about to suffer an uncancelled crit from an attack. And suffering damage happens in step 7. While Ion Cannon happens in step 6 and cancels all dice. That is the whole mechanic of Ion Effects, except Ion Torpedo. They cancel all dice result so the target ship doesn't suffer the damage you rolled to determine that the ship was hit.

[DraconPyrothayan 6,107]

 

 

when a certain condition is met.

 

That is the definition of a trigger.

 

DTF's text is

 

When a friendly ship at Range 1 is hit by an attack, you may suffer 1 of the uncanceled results instead of the target ship.

 

When "X" happens you may do "Y" is a standard format. "X" is the trigger, "Y" is the effect.

 

OK, lets call it a trigger. To me a trigger is something that has to happen, while a condition and optional ability is something that offers you a choice under certain conditions.

 

But in this case, what is the trigger? It would seem that most people here would argue it is "When a friendly ship at Range 1 is hit by an attack"

 

But it really isn't. The trigger is that the target ship at Range 1 is about to suffer an uncancelled crit from an attack. And suffering damage happens in step 7. While Ion Cannon happens in step 6 and cancels all dice. That is the whole mechanic of Ion Effects, except Ion Torpedo. They cancel all dice result so the target ship doesn't suffer the damage you rolled to determine that the ship was hit.

 

If there are uncancelled results, then the Defender is Hit. It is a naming, not a step.

You may suffer an uncancelled (KABOOM) result for a friendly Defender at Range 1 that is Hit.

If a ship is Hit by an Ion cannon/turret/missile, the Defender receives 1 damage and an Ion Token, and all dice results are canceled.

 

How is this still a debate?

[StephenEsven 632]

We are not debating wether the defender was hit. That we all agree on. We are debating wether DtF can trigger or not. And that is where the combat steps come in. Dirung an attack 7 steps happed. Suffering Damage happens in step 7. And I am arguing that DtF triggers when the Defender would suffer an uncancelled Critical Hit. This is the only time you can suffer the Critical Hit instead of the defender. And since the defender isn't suffering any uncancelled Critical Hit, DtF can't trigger. Just like it can't trigger if you suffer only Hits from a regular attack, because there is no uncancelled Critical Hits.

 

The fact that the text on DtF refers to a ship being Hit, is to not allow you to use DtF to suffer a Critical Hit from a ship at Range 1 that rolled a Critical Hit from a Bomb, Mine or Obstacle.

[Parravon 5,217]

^^ I gotta agree with this. Timing-wise, when your are determining the hit, you're in Step 6.The Ion Cannon card is still being resolved. You establish the hit, immediately suffer the damage, then cancel all dice results. It doesn't progress to Step 7 in the usual sense, as the card text dictates the damage, and there's no uncancelled results anymore. The way I see it DtF doesn't get a chance to trigger.

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

We are not debating wether the defender was hit. That we all agree on. We are debating wether DtF can trigger or not. And that is where the combat steps come in. Dirung an attack 7 steps happed. Suffering Damage happens in step 7. And I am arguing that DtF triggers when the Defender would suffer an uncancelled Critical Hit. This is the only time you can suffer the Critical Hit instead of the defender. And since the defender isn't suffering any uncancelled Critical Hit, DtF can't trigger. Just like it can't trigger if you suffer only Hits from a regular attack, because there is no uncancelled Critical Hits.

The fact that the text on DtF refers to a ship being Hit, is to not allow you to use DtF to suffer a Critical Hit from a ship at Range 1 that rolled a Critical Hit from a Bomb, Mine or Obstacle.

Your line of thinking requires you to ignore a clear timing instruction.

Additionally, if Draw Their Fire isn't triggered and resolved in Step 6, then neither is any other effect that uses the language "When a ship is hit...", which includes the Ion Cannon. So even if you were right, it would be irrelevant to the situation described in the OP; the effect of Ion Cannon and Draw Their Fire have the same trigger, regardless of whether you delay the resolution of those effects until the damage step (which you definitely shouldn't do).

Edited February 15, 2015 by Vorpal Sword

[Buhallin 4,563]

The card clearly states that you can suffer the uncancelled crits in stead of the target.

Yes - this is the effect.  It's not the trigger.

 

If it were a trigger, it would be something like Chewie "When you are dealt a damage card".  Triggers tell you the conditions and timing, effect tells you what to do.

[StephenEsven 632]

 

We are not debating wether the defender was hit. That we all agree on. We are debating wether DtF can trigger or not. And that is where the combat steps come in. Dirung an attack 7 steps happed. Suffering Damage happens in step 7. And I am arguing that DtF triggers when the Defender would suffer an uncancelled Critical Hit. This is the only time you can suffer the Critical Hit instead of the defender. And since the defender isn't suffering any uncancelled Critical Hit, DtF can't trigger. Just like it can't trigger if you suffer only Hits from a regular attack, because there is no uncancelled Critical Hits.

The fact that the text on DtF refers to a ship being Hit, is to not allow you to use DtF to suffer a Critical Hit from a ship at Range 1 that rolled a Critical Hit from a Bomb, Mine or Obstacle.

Your line of thinking requires you to ignore a clear timing instruction.

Additionally, if Draw Their Fire isn't triggered and resolved in Step 6, then neither is any other effect that uses the language "When a ship is hit...", which includes the Ion Cannon. So even if you were right, it would be irrelevant to the situation described in the OP; the effect of Ion Cannon and Draw Their Fire have the same trigger, regardless of whether you delay the resolution of those effects until the damage step (which you definitely shouldn't do).

 

 

 

 

The card clearly states that you can suffer the uncancelled crits in stead of the target.

Yes - this is the effect.  It's not the trigger.

 

If it were a trigger, it would be something like Chewie "When you are dealt a damage card".  Triggers tell you the conditions and timing, effect tells you what to do.

 

Then you are claiming that DtF can trigger off of any attack, regardless of what was rolled.

 

You are completely disregarding the part of the trigger that states that you may suffer the critical hit instead of the defender. Which requires there is a Critical Hit in the first place. Which there isn't, because you do not suffer the damage rolled, because Ion cannon cancelled the dice.

[Parravon 5,217]

DtF trigger is after an attack that hits, so the trigger is there but there is no effect.

[dvorm 1,058]

You seem to think that DTF has a trigger and happens in Step 6.

Yes I do. DTF triggers at the end of the compare results step.

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

Yes, of course DTF could trigger off of any attack, irrespective of they type of weapon. If no kabooms were rolled then the effect fizzles and nothing happens, but DTF would still have been triggered. Similar to how you can spend a focus token to convert 0 dice.

Can't think of any reason to do so, but if down the line we get an ability that itself triggers when another ability is used or something.

[dvorm 1,058]

... Which requires there is a Critical Hit in the first place. Which there isn't, because you do not suffer the damage rolled, because Ion cannon cancelled the dice.

 

If the attacker has initiative that is correct. If the defender has initiative, it is not.

The ion weapon did not already cancel the dice. DTF resolves first, ion weapon second.

[konradkurze 275]

DTF does trigger off every attack. However, seeing as you can only move Crits over to the DTF ship and Ion never produces a crit (barring the not yet released Ion Battery on the Raider) there is nothing to move over, so DTF does actually work start to finish, by transferring 0 Crits.

 

It specifically says "you may suffer one of the uncancelled crits" and there are no uncancelled crits. Even if initiative order mattered and some friendly ship took a crit for no reason that crit would be cancelled. Ion cancels all results, not all results applied to the target, so it would cancel that crit anyway.

And of course the Ion Token is applied to the initial target because the target was hit (a prereq for triggering DTF).

 

So regardless it all ends up in the same place. One Hit is suffered by the defender, in addition to an Ion Token, and the DTF ship takes no damage.

 

 

 

 

 

On a similar note Xizor. One nearby ship (range 1?) can suffer one uncancelled hit or crit. This could actually be used with Ion weapons. The Ion Weapons add 1 hit after cancelling all results, that 1 hit can be moved off Xizor using his ability. 

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

On a similar note Xizor. One nearby ship (range 1?) can suffer one uncancelled hit or crit. This could actually be used with Ion weapons. The Ion Weapons add 1 hit after cancelling all results, that 1 hit can be moved off Xizor using his ability. 

 

I don't think this works (at least, no better than DTF). Xizor's ability transfers a boom or kaboom result, but ion weapons don't inflict a boom result, they cause 1 damage, which he can't pawn off onto a flunky. His ability could be used to move one of the uncancelled dice results from the attack, but that is just a rerun of the DTF issue, yeah, technically you can do it, but it doesn't accomplish anything, but I don't think his ability can shift the damage from the ion effect.

[dvorm 1,058]

DTF does trigger off every attack. However, seeing as you can only move Crits over to the DTF ship and Ion never produces a crit (barring the not yet released Ion Battery on the Raider) there is nothing to move over, so DTF does actually work start to finish, by transferring 0 Crits.

 

DTF works on an uncancelled die result. Which DTF can certainly move to another ship before the text from the ion weapon card resolves.

 

This assumes that the defender has initiative.

 

 

Edit:

The point of disagreement is: When does the DTF-ship suffer damage? While resolving DTF (then it does suffer damage) or during the deal damage step (then it does not suffer damage).

Edited February 15, 2015 by dvor