Player collusion?

[Pogie 113]

At a recent store championship two players agreed to a draw to split points and make sure each of them made it into the top four.

I heard a bit of grumbling about it so looked up the tournament rules. They state that player collusion to manipulate results is expressly forbidden. This seems to fall under that but I am not sure as I have never heard of a draw in Xwing so don't know whether they are legal or not.

[voidreturn 816]

Yeah the TO should have DQ'd both of them. They did it to split the points and earn a top spot, which clearly falls under the collusion rule.

[WarTurtle 139]

What you describe is exactly what the collusion rule is in place to prevent. That is textbook bullshittery, and the TO should have bounced them both immediately. This BS happens in the "FGC" (fighting game community...Street Fighter and such) and teh internetz are lit ablaze immediately. Players are DQ'd, money is lost, sponserships pulled, mass hysteria. I think we can all agree that type of tomfoolery should be avoided at all costs.

[Rat of Vengence 1,029]

Apply the shuttlesock to afflicted players immediately. Should symptoms persist, repeat application as necessary. 

 

RoV

[Nyxen 1,605]

Happens in card games all the time, I don' t see why plastic minis area any different

[fleurdelis 11]

I was not there, but if this is the same event I've heard of, there may be more information to weigh into your consideration.  It was explained to me that the two parties were sitting very heavy in wins/MOV (I believe undefeated) to such a degree that the final round of Swiss itself would not affect either player making the post-Swiss brackets.  With that understanding they approached the TO to confirm and decided to forgoe the formality.  While I'm sure there will be always be objections, it is worth noting that their outcome would not preclude anyone else's rise into or fall out of the bracket action to follow that final round.

[gundamv 245]

Really, draws are allowed in this game?  That's a new one to me.  I know people can agree to draws in chess (done all the time there), but in X-Wing?

 

Weird...

 

(My stance is that all games should be played out to their conclusion, whether the annihilation of one side or the calling of time.  No forfeits, no agreed draws.  That is to prevent collusion and MoV rigging.)

Edited February 12, 2015 by gundamv

[Pogie 113]

I was not there, but if this is the same event I've heard of, there may be more information to weigh into your consideration.  It was explained to me that the two parties were sitting very heavy in wins/MOV (I believe undefeated) to such a degree that the final round of Swiss itself would not affect either player making the post-Swiss brackets.  With that understanding they approached the TO to confirm and decided to forgoe the formality.  While I'm sure there will be always be objections, it is worth noting that their outcome would not preclude anyone else's rise into or fall out of the bracket action to follow that final round.

Different tournament. There were no post Swiss rounds in this tournament. I can't speak to the players motives beyond them wanting to be assured to be in the top four. That's how it was explained to me anyway.

[fleurdelis 11]

I see. Thank you for the clarification, Pogie!  It sounded so similar to the event I heard about...

[Innocent 69]

Happens in card games all the time, I don' t see why plastic minis area any different

Because the official rules explicitely forbid it.

[Nyxen 1,605]

To be fair if you're banking on the last round of swiss you probably aren't doing the greatest anyway, so I don't see why people get so upset

[Hujoe Bigs 2,071]

To be fair if you're banking on the last round of swiss you probably aren't doing the greatest anyway, so I don't see why people get so upset

 

That actually is completely untrue. The last round can shuffle things around quite significantly for even a single lose contender in a 4-5 round swiss. going 3-1 or 4-1 is relatively good, so not sure what you are implying.

[WonderWAAAGH 7,153]

Happens in card games all the time, I don' t see why plastic minis area any different

 

People exceed the speed limit all the time, surely it's no big deal if I do it too.

[ScottieATF 2,864]

I was not there, but if this is the same event I've heard of, there may be more information to weigh into your consideration.  It was explained to me that the two parties were sitting very heavy in wins/MOV (I believe undefeated) to such a degree that the final round of Swiss itself would not affect either player making the post-Swiss brackets.  With that understanding they approached the TO to confirm and decided to forgoe the formality.  While I'm sure there will be always be objections, it is worth noting that their outcome would not preclude anyone else's rise into or fall out of the bracket action to follow that final round.

That any outcome could not effect thier being in the Top Cut, does not mean there was nothing alterable by an arrangement. Thier arrangement could have altered the seeding for the Top Cut, essentially they could fix the pairings. That is still collusion and not allowed under the current rules.

[ScottieATF 2,864]

Happens in card games all the time, I don' t see why plastic minis area any different

 

People exceed the speed limit all the time, surely it's no big deal if I do it too.

Ehh, more then a few card games allow you to take a draw. Including the big one, Magic. X-wing explicitly does not.

So, traffically speaking, just because at one intersection you can make a right on red, doesn't mean you can at another.

[Hobojebus 11,341]

Sounds scummy to me I agree they should of been kicked out on the spot.

[General Mayhem 178]

Well, Scum and Villainy is coming out. Maybe they could hook up on that set and use that. 

Edited February 12, 2015 by General Mayhem

[Khyros 4,218]

This happened at Gencon.  The folks that were 6-0 decided on a draw and left an hour early.  They told the FFG TO and headed out.  Given they were already guaranteed a spot in the top 32 regardless (some 5-2s made it).  

If they're both going to make the cut anyways (or in this case it sounds like there wasn't a cut, so seeding doesn't even get affected), why bother?  Furthermore, if there wasn't a cut, and they were both guaranteed top 4, it was stupid for at least one of them to do it because a win could have made him champion.

[Wayne Argabright 1,544]

would think it would be cool if they had some total elimination tournaments.. no time limits, you play tell ALL your opponents ships are blown up..  Granted it would take lots more time...  Would also shake things up a bit as stall tactics would be useless and tankey low firepower builds become slightly more viable. Seems like I always feel rushed in tournaments knowing there is a time limit. Not that i play slow. well i don't think i do..lol I have played against some really slow folks, although they did tend to speed up when they were loosing!!!   that still bugs me....

[Guitarquero 186]

Draws exist either destroying the exact same amount of points or killing each other at the same PS, I have only seen happen once. I haven't had player collusion happen before and would be against it happening as long as it didn't effect the results. But really just play the game out unless it's the last game of the tournament and both players agree on the outcome.

[MechGumbi 166]

The game does allow for draws.  If both players kill the exact same number of points at the end of a timed round, then they will tie (i.e. draw).  Both players would then receive 1 tournament point and 100 MoV points.  So these two players could have agreed to move in circles the entire game or set up all of their ships facing the edge of the board for a first turn all ships leave the play area.  Set-up for all ships to fly off the board first turn would result in both players "destroying" 100 pts.

 

But, both players deciding to do this together to get a break before a cut or at the end of a tournament would be collusion.

 

So, it is against the rules, but is it any different from someone conceding from a match to end it early, if the final results wouldn't affect the final standings/seeding?

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

Regardless of how it works in other games, it's against the rules in X-wing, and is grounds for at least a warning if not a disqualification.

Whether this particular case ought to be against the rules is a separate question, but it is definitely collusion to manipulate tournament scoring.

[Herowannabe 4,314]

Why do people keep saying "if it doesn't affect the tournament outcome then why does it matter?" The OP made it clear that in this case it definitely DID affect the tournament results. If the two colluding players had played out their game one of them would have lost, and likely been knocked out of the top 4 by someone with better MOV.

Definitely not cool, by the way. Big fail on the TOs part.

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

Why do people keep saying "if it doesn't affect the tournament outcome then why does it matter?" The OP made it clear that in this case it definitely DID affect the tournament results. If the two colluding players had played out their game one of them would have lost, and likely been knocked out of the top 4 by someone with better MOV.

Well, in a hypothetical situation where the colluding players are the only undefeated players, and they both have MoV at least 200 points higher than the 3-1 player with the second highest MoV, then their draw can't kick them out of the top four. If there's no cut and prizes are split evenly among those top 4, or if there is a cut but seeding for single-elimination is random, then their decision literally has no effect on the outcome of the tournament.

I'm not claiming that was the case here, and I think I was clear that this was indeed not cool. The TO should have let them know that their choices were limited to (1) play the game out, or (2) both of them drop from the tournament.

...I would prefer that X-wing organized play use a tournament format that didn't create incentives to do this in the first place. A good tournament system shouldn't have the possibility to put a player in a position where his or her performance in a match doesn't matter.

 

[EDIT: Either I had a stroke or made a copy-and-paste error while proofreading initially. Fixed.]

Edited February 12, 2015 by Vorpal Sword

[StevenO 2,996]

Something I saw in here brings up an interesting question:

 

You can draw if the last ships are destroyed as part of the simultaneous fire rule.  Is there any other time that could also happen?

 

This comes from reading the "just set all the ships up to fly off the board at the start of the game," comment.  I don't recall any simultaneous movement options so if that was attempted one person would have to fly his/her ships off the board first and then lose even if the opponent does the same during the same PS step.  The closest I could think of this happening would be Turr destroying the last ship and then intentionally boosting/rolling off the board.