Crew sizes of Star Wars capital ships

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

I would just like to pipe in here and say that this is the most interesting thread to show up on these boards in months.

[Mikael Hasselstein 6,898]

I would just like to pipe in here and say that this is the most interesting thread to show up on these boards in months.

 

Thanks, we aim to please. Of course, that may be saying more about the other threads.

 

@SirEmil,

 

That era was absolutely fascinating, and it's fascinating to become aware of the Pacific Threater in the context of what was considered a continental European conflict. During my earlier grad school years I did a project looking at the bilateral US-Dutch relationship during the first year of WWI. Being strategically bottled up, the Dutch were looking to the Americans to vouchsafe the Dutch East Indies. Also, something I learned later, is that my great grandfather served in the Dutch navy at that time, and was a gun operator serving in the Dutch East Indies. The summer before last, my mother and I visited the naval archive and found his file.

 

Anyway, it doesn't really matter, but that era does have a really interesting flavor to it.

 

More to the topic at hand: When you talk about the naval academy, aren't you talking about the officer corps, rather than the poor schleps who stand by in transfer corridors on the off-chance that a TIE fighter collides with something?  (Of course, that may be a job that doesn't need to exist either)

 

The thing is: I really am trying to figure out what each and every person aboard that crew does. Some, such as those who are there for administrative or cooking/cleaning support I can just scale out and make assumptions on. But when it comes to things like the Operations department or the Deck department, or for the shuttle wing (which is vastly more complicated than the TIE wing), I'm trying to figure out what they all do, just so that I have a sense of what all needs to be aboard this massive ship.

 

Now, I may be making as much busywork for myself as for the 37,000 crewers aboard the ISD, but it's kinda fun to speculate on. You're welcome to join me on the project, if you like.

[Funk Fu master 825]

 

In a way Star Destroyers are like 19th Century armored cruisers. The Armored Cruisers of the great powers were designed to cruise (funny that) very far from established bases, to the far reaches of a colonial empire. Out there their mission was to raid enemy commerce, defend friendly commerce, and police far flung territories in "show the flag" missions. To do this the ships had to be capable of deploying a sizable marine compliment to go ashore and fight local rebels. To that end armored cruisers had crews as big or even bigger than pre-dreadnought battleships. For an example of these naval brigades on action see the siege of Ladysmith in the Boer War.

 

That is a perfect analogy. In modern naval policy for my Navy (Australia) and when the US Carrier groups detach a destroyer on a patrol, its phrased as

"Alone and Unafraid"

 

Which would have been the primary tasking for Star Destroyers. Only for major fleet actions and excercises would a SD be in company with another. It would operate on a semi regular basis with smaller support and patrol craft like corvettes and frigates however, acting as a mobile system or sector command for all imperial movements in the region

 

You man to achieve capability, not derive capability from available manning.

 

There's no doubt that this is the way our navy works. I wonder if the same is true of the Chinese navy, though the Chinese navy is in the position of being a green-water navy with a foreign power being (seen as) an overbearing hegemon. With the Empire, there is no overbearing hegemon, and it's navy (or, at least, the star destroyer) is a blue-water navy (black space navy?).

So, I wonder if it's the way the chinese navy of cheap stereotype would be?

 

 

Well, the capabilities of an ISD (and to a lesser extent the VSD) would allow it to act in the Blue, green and brown "space" domains, as it can do anything from fleet engagement, system wide interdiction, planetary invasion and constabulary duties, and humanitarian aid (only to humans though)

 

 

Classic sailing ships, you only had two: the Port and Starboard watches. They would switch off every four hours (4, 8, and 12 o'clock). One ran the rigging, while the other got some rest, ate, and did minor maintenance.

 

Actually, for a while I was thinking of running four shifts rather than three.

 

A conundrum is this: with that many people (37000 is a lot!), I'm forced to be like one of those managers that has to invent busywork just to keep people occupied. Going from 3 to two shifts means that I have to figure out 1.5x as many jobs for people to do.

 

 

There are ALWAYS jobs to do. You actually have more work to do when you have 3 shifts vice 2, as you are only expected to sleep during your "night" off watch time, and conduct admin and other ancillery duties during your "daytime" offwatch period. Whereas 2 shifts your either on watch, or asleep

 

In some ways the Imperial Navy is like the Victorian Royal navy,

 

Very much so, the Star destroyer is very much the space equivelant of the Royal Navy Frigate

[Rapscallion84 326]

Great discussion so far. I don't have much knowledge of real-world Naval vessels, but having dedicated crew for civilian jobs aboard a dedicated warship seems unnecessary. I imagine that when gunners aren't ... gunning ... they are cutting hair, swabbing decks, manning the post room. You don't need these operations running in combat and therefore you don't need crew dedicated to these roles exclusively.

 

Dedicated crew, in my eyes, would be:

Officers, pilots (TIE pilots may have to maintain a patrol and perhaps pull shuttle duty), medical staff, security, bridge/operations crew, engineers, hangar crew.

 

Is there anywhere in Star Wars lore that says there are multiple watches? Couldn't there be a 'main' crew and a 'nighttime' skeleton watch crew? For combat it would be all hands to stations anyway. You may have tired crew at the end of their shift but they could be replaced with watch crew.

[Mikael Hasselstein 6,898]

In a way Star Destroyers are like 19th Century armored cruisers. The Armored Cruisers of the great powers were designed to cruise (funny that) very far from established bases, to the far reaches of a colonial empire. Out there their mission was to raid enemy commerce, defend friendly commerce, and police far flung territories in "show the flag" missions. To do this the ships had to be capable of deploying a sizable marine compliment to go ashore and fight local rebels. To that end armored cruisers had crews as big or even bigger than pre-dreadnought battleships. For an example of these naval brigades on action see the siege of Ladysmith in the Boer War.

 

That is a perfect analogy. In modern naval policy for my Navy (Australia) and when the US Carrier groups detach a destroyer on a patrol, its phrased as

"Alone and Unafraid"

 

Which would have been the primary tasking for Star Destroyers. Only for major fleet actions and excercises would a SD be in company with another. It would operate on a semi regular basis with smaller support and patrol craft like corvettes and frigates however, acting as a mobile system or sector command for all imperial movements in the region

 

Indeed, from what I know (or have headcanoned) about the Imperial navy, it seems to me that a Star Destroyer's primary purpose is gunboat diplomacy. On its own, it can do a very wide variety of tasks, and it's also very capable of defending itself. In that respect, it's like a battleship and aircraft carrier and troop transport all rolled into one.

 

In many ways, it's probably a very inefficient use of hardware, because you can probably do all of those things more efficiently with a fleet of smaller ships than having all your eggs in one basket in only one location.

 

The one main upshot of it being: you can see it in orbit from the planet's surface and know that you're in deep trouble. Remember that in the cut scenes of A New Hope Biggs and Luke saw the Devastator disabling the Tantive IV while they were planetside on a cloudless bright Tatooine day.

 

 

You man to achieve capability, not derive capability from available manning.

 

There's no doubt that this is the way our navy works. I wonder if the same is true of the Chinese navy, though the Chinese navy is in the position of being a green-water navy with a foreign power being (seen as) an overbearing hegemon. With the Empire, there is no overbearing hegemon, and it's navy (or, at least, the star destroyer) is a blue-water navy (black space navy?).

So, I wonder if it's the way the chinese navy of cheap stereotype would be?

 

Well, the capabilities of an ISD (and to a lesser extent the VSD) would allow it to act in the Blue, green and brown "space" domains, as it can do anything from fleet engagement, system wide interdiction, planetary invasion and constabulary duties, and humanitarian aid (only to humans though)

 

That sounds about right, but let me bounce the concepts off you to see if I've understood them right, and then see how they're translatable to the SWU environment.

 

Brown water - rivers

Green water - close to shore

Blue water - deep sea.

 

While it's probably the case that blue water platforms can't operate in bown water territory due to depth, the difference between green water and blue water is primarily one of a green water navy being limited in its power projection capability, whereas blue water can go where it likes (brown water areas notwithstanding). As such, a green water navy (such as China's) represents a more defensive posture, whereas the US Navy can go anywhere and have a carrier group in any area where the US has a concern.

 

How was that structurally different from the Victorian navy other than that the German Navy pretended to be able to compete?

 

Great discussion so far. I don't have much knowledge of real-world Naval vessels, but having dedicated crew for civilian jobs aboard a dedicated warship seems unnecessary. I imagine that when gunners aren't ... gunning ... they are cutting hair, swabbing decks, manning the post room. You don't need these operations running in combat and therefore you don't need crew dedicated to these roles exclusively.

 

Well, with 37,000 people you have to start thinking about how many roles can possibly be filled. That's the rub.

 

Also, I think that to us it probably seems alien to not have to worry about being efficient with manpower. 37000 people is a lot of people, but they're quite easily accommodated aboard an ISD. This is not a ship where space is at a premium, and therefore you have to efficiently do as many tasks with as few people as possible.

 

The Empire is not about efficiency. The Empire is always and everywhere about the Powell Doctrine* - overwhelming force. Being efficient with limited resources is not what the Empire cares about. Resources are not limited, and human beings are the least limited resource at its command.

 

 

Is there anywhere in Star Wars lore that says there are multiple watches? Couldn't there be a 'main' crew and a 'nighttime' skeleton watch crew? For combat it would be all hands to stations anyway. You may have tired crew at the end of their shift but they could be replaced with watch crew.

 

No, I did not get that from any source, but got it from some reading I did about life aboard a US navy submarine. For sure, a submarine is a poor parallel, but it has 24-hour readiness. There's also a why-not aspect to it. If you have that many people, you might as well run them in shifts and keep people at greater readiness.

 

 

 

*Not quite so, the Powell Doctrine was about much more than that, but 'overwhelming force' is the catchphrase repeated by journalists.

[Mikael Hasselstein 6,898]

A question on top:

 

How many MPs/guards do you guys figure would be necessary to police 37000 crewers and 9700 stormtroopers, in a society like that aboard an Imperial Star Destroyer?

[Rapscallion84 326]

See, you're trying to work backwards from the 37,000 crew figure to justify this value. What I would like to do is work the other way around - work out what the actual minimum operational crew value should be. In my head it would be something closer to 6000 excluding Stormtroopers.

 

I think the key problem is the role of an ISD in the Star Wars universe. The 37k figure makes more sense when the ISD is designed as a system pacification platform, capable of waging war on its own. The fact is that the ISD just isn't presented that way outside of A New Hope.

 

There are multiple battlegrounds containing multiple fleets with several ISDs in them - the ISD in this sense is a ship of the line. You simply don't need Stormtrooper battalions, legal system, post service etc. on every ship in a fleet containing 10s of ISDs, especially as presented in Empire Strikes Back where there is a massive SSD command ship with them!

[Mikael Hasselstein 6,898]

See, you're trying to work backwards from the 37,000 crew figure to justify this value. What I would like to do is work the other way around - work out what the actual minimum operational crew value should be. In my head it would be something closer to 6000 excluding Stormtroopers.

 

I think the key problem is the role of an ISD in the Star Wars universe. The 37k figure makes more sense when the ISD is designed as a system pacification platform, capable of waging war on its own. The fact is that the ISD just isn't presented that way outside of A New Hope.

 

There are multiple battlegrounds containing multiple fleets with several ISDs in them - the ISD in this sense is a ship of the line. You simply don't need Stormtrooper battalions, legal system, post service etc. on every ship in a fleet containing 10s of ISDs, especially as presented in Empire Strikes Back where there is a massive SSD command ship with them!

 

Yes, I'm working with the 37,000 figure, because that's the number of crew on an ISD. Sure, in your headcanon an ISD may not need more than 6,000 people, but I'm trying to stick to the published number.

 

I think we should also remember that when we're seeing ISDs in the movies, we're seeing them under very rare circumstances - when Vader is hunting down a wayward senator, when Vader is hunting his long-lost son (and the rebellion), and when they're laying a trap for the entire rebel fleet.

 

Most of the Empire's deployment is not like that. ISD's are the flagships of a vast navy, in which the bulk of the work is not done by ISDs, but by smaller ships. Out of a sector fleet of 1,600 vessels, only 24 are ISDs*

 

So, in that respect, the ISD probably also represent administrative and strategic centers of fleets, and not just the running of their own affairs.

 

 

 

*This is according to the old West End Games' Imperial Sourcebook, which is what I'm going for. Your canon may differ, but it's what I'm using as the basis for much of what I'm working on.

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

But he us basically stuck with the 37000 figure. That's what is listed in the canon, that's how many WERE aboard. He was given the final number and is trying to make it work. It's kinda pointless to figure out what the division of labor for a SD crew of 6000 would be when that isn't how many people were on board.

****, ninja'd.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Forgottenlore

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

A question on top:

 

How many MPs/guards do you guys figure would be necessary to police 37000 crewers and 9700 stormtroopers, in a society like that aboard an Imperial Star Destroyer?

I can't give you an answer, but I do want to make sure you take into consideration not just MPs and security guards but ISB and compnor secret police and security. While they probably make up a tiny fraction of the population, such organizations would probably have official, public forces (with their own, separate chain of command). Plus, it would be nice to have some idea how many spies might be masquerading as cook's assistants.

[Rapscallion84 326]

I'm also curious about the role of Stormtroopers on an ISD. They are shown to stand guard at various points on the ship, but then there are the black-suited naval security staff too. Do their roles overlap? How does it work on real-world carriers, do they carry a complement of marines that perform security duties?

[Mikael Hasselstein 6,898]

A question on top:

 

How many MPs/guards do you guys figure would be necessary to police 37000 crewers and 9700 stormtroopers, in a society like that aboard an Imperial Star Destroyer?

I can't give you an answer, but I do want to make sure you take into consideration not just MPs and security guards but ISB and compnor secret police and security. While they probably make up a tiny fraction of the population, such organizations would probably have official, public forces (with their own, separate chain of command). Plus, it would be nice to have some idea how many spies might be masquerading as cook's assistants.

 

Yes, I'm dividing up the ISB division into the following sections:

• Internal Affairs
• Re-Education
• Enforcement
• Surveillance
• Investigations
• Interrogation

In addition, the Security division is divided into sections according to the segment of the ship that they have to police:

• Command Tower
• Neck
• Quarters
• Engineering
• Starboard Broadside
• Port Broadside
• Hangars
• Bow & Stores

I'm still working out how many operational roles there are in each of those segments of the ship, but once I have that figured out, then I can apply a multiplier to that number to arrive at the numbers of security personnel.

 

I'm also curious about the role of Stormtroopers on an ISD. They are shown to stand guard at various points on the ship, but then there are the black-suited naval security staff too. Do their roles overlap? How does it work on real-world carriers, do they carry a complement of marines that perform security duties?

 

I imagine that stormtroopers are probably there for guard duty in Darth Vader's vicinity. Aboard the ISD, their role is for combat deployment, whereas standing guard and having security duty is for the black-clad naval troopers. Now, maybe there are certain circumstances where a stormtrooper guard is used, but the security division proper would be naval troopers (I would think).

Edited February 13, 2015 by Mikael Hasselstein

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

Somehow the background that has been developed is, I believe, very different from what was assumed when the movies were being made. Based on the movies I just assumed that Stormtroopers were the Imperial equivalent to the Marines and Army. Stormtroopers were the ground pounders and all the other guys were assorted naval personnel running the ship. It wasn't until much later, when I started digging into the EU that I learned the official story was that Stormtroopers were some kind of elite, special snowflake, force and that there was a whole separate Imperial Army (that is never hinted at in the films). When I found that out I thought (and still do) that that was a monumentally stupid and idiotically overcomplicated and unnecessary thing for some author to do.

[Mikael Hasselstein 6,898]

Somehow the background that has been developed is, I believe, very different from what was assumed when the movies were being made. Based on the movies I just assumed that Stormtroopers were the Imperial equivalent to the Marines and Army. Stormtroopers were the ground pounders and all the other guys were assorted naval personnel running the ship. It wasn't until much later, when I started digging into the EU that I learned the official story was that Stormtroopers were some kind of elite, special snowflake, force and that there was a whole separate Imperial Army (that is never hinted at in the films). When I found that out I thought (and still do) that that was a monumentally stupid and idiotically overcomplicated and unnecessary thing for some author to do.

 

Yeah, there are clearly different interpretations out there.

 

For my part, I do see stormtroopers as the marine corps of the SWU. While I think some see them as elite, I think their main strength is their dedication to the Emperor (very WH40K-ish, in that respect), and their willingness to lay down their lives - clearly not their fighting prowess.

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

Now I am just thinking about the day to day life aboard such a ship. The Compnor political officer will need regular reports from his undercover snitches among the crew, but obviously you can't just have crewman Loginov casually wander into Compnor's onboard offices every week without attracting suspicion, so probably every crew member is asked to come in and "answer a few questions" on a regular basis as a means of gauging loyalty, maintaining fear, and providing an opportunity for spies to report.

 

Wouldn't that make for a fun routine.

[Funk Fu master 825]

Stormtroopers were elite, until they got ewok'ed. They kicked arse on the tantaive IV and Hoth

[Rapscallion84 326]

I wouldn't have thought it too necessary to have the crew constantly tested for loyalty. All Imperials undergo extensive indoctrination during training, and that's after being selected specifically for their suitability to the Imperial doctrine by recruitment officers. Very few are even allowed to enter the Imperial academies.

 

Re: Imperial Army, we have only seen three on-screen representations: Veers and the two AT-AT drivers. Veers had a brown uniform iirc, while the drivers were clad in white armour with an alternate helmet.

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

Veers was in grey. While on the SD he had basically the same officers uniform as ozzell and Piet, and in the at-at it was a grey armor. And as you said, the drivers were stormtroopers with different helmets to accommodate the different job they were doing.

[Gadge 4,294]

 

 

But I am an Imperial fanboy.

 

 

Well we can't have that

 

Nah its alright man, just didn't want anyone trying to claim stormtroopers didn't need MPs, all soldiers get rowdy at times, especially when cooped up on a ship.

 

 

 

That is what 'spit and polish' and 'b*ll' exist for.    As former military DS (albeit briefly) you keep soldiers , particularly young and raw recruit ones very busy by giving them endless amounts of pointless stuff to do.

 

B*llsh*t Baffles Brains is the philosophy.   Having guys press razor creases into trousers, polish toecaps to mirror shines, paint rocks white, etc etc....    it keeps them busy and raging againt the DS and not getting angry with each other and brawling or getting drunk or getting bored and doing something crazy.

 

I've been on both sides of this system.

 

MPs as support service *really* are more there for movement and lines of communication control.    Garrisoned troops really have daily discipline looked after by 'regimental provosts' and NCO 'duty officers'.  Or at least that how it used to work in the UK.

 

If the RMP were called in you've done something *really* bad, the sort of stuff you're going to a correctional facility for (those are not fun either...)

 

Well motivated, trained, elite and volunteer troops *generally* dont require that level of supervision.

 

An example would be UK special forces.  They are given a shocking amount of leniency as to what they wear, how they have their hair, kit they take with them etc but are expected to be at lectures, briefings, parades on time and in order without being shepherded about.   They are expected not to draw attention to themselves, its self regulating as anyone who cant do this is returned to a normal infantry or airborne unit... its the ultimate humilitation to be returned so people dont much about.

 

With stormtroopers you're looking at a mix of clone and biological fanatically loyal elite troops.  I think the *only* real world comparison would be 'hitler youth'.   I dont think they would have that many internal discipline problems...  too busy sneering at the 'lesser units' and training hard.

 

Problem is we see in the OT and EU stromtroopers being everything from 'elite special forces proffesionals' to 'clueless recruits' and 'borderline dissenters' (davin felth?)

 

Lucas never *really* showed us what the guys behind the masks were like in the OT, other than incredibly gullible.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Gadge

[Rapscallion84 326]

Veers was in grey. While on the SD he had basically the same officers uniform as ozzell and Piet, and in the at-at it was a grey armor. And as you said, the drivers were stormtroopers with different helmets to accommodate the different job they were doing.

 

Ah right you are. I had this imagine in my head when thinking of Veers: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Maximilian_Veers

 

Scroll down to the 'Behind The Scenes' image.

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

Òf course, you realize mikael, once you finish with the crew breakdown for the ISD, you have to do the executer.

[Dagonet 7,246]

Starship Troopers (the book, not the movie) might shed some light on how for instance the stormtroopers might've been housed and treated on a Star Destroyer. 

 

And on the difference in crew size between an ISD and a Mon Cal, the Dutch flagship carries about 202 crew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNLMS_De_Zeven_Provinci%C3%ABn_(F802)) while the equivalent German Sachsen class frigates need 40 more http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sachsen-class_frigate, same as the Spanish while the Danes seem to need even fewer than the Dutch.

 

Scale that up to Star Wars sizes and the difference becomes even bigger I guess

[Mikael Hasselstein 6,898]

Now I am just thinking about the day to day life aboard such a ship. The Compnor political officer will need regular reports from his undercover snitches among the crew, but obviously you can't just have crewman Loginov casually wander into Compnor's onboard offices every week without attracting suspicion, so probably every crew member is asked to come in and "answer a few questions" on a regular basis as a means of gauging loyalty, maintaining fear, and providing an opportunity for spies to report.

 

Well, this is a totalitarian regime. I can see this, and it would represent quite a lot of manpower to have such periodic interviews. And then people to control the interviewers.

 

Also - maybe at times, with a particularly beastly Political Officer in charge - this results in some significant crew attrition - having crew incarcerated, or worse...

 

I wouldn't have thought it too necessary to have the crew constantly tested for loyalty. All Imperials undergo extensive indoctrination during training, and that's after being selected specifically for their suitability to the Imperial doctrine by recruitment officers. Very few are even allowed to enter the Imperial academies.

 

I still think that those academies are for the officer corps, not the enlisted. While the stormtroopers may have been trained to be that rigid and loyal, but about 60% of the people aboard the ISD are neither commissioned nor a stormtrooper. They're just enlisted navy crewers.

 

 

That is what 'spit and polish' and 'b*ll' exist for.    As former military DS (albeit briefly) you keep soldiers , particularly young and raw recruit ones very busy by giving them endless amounts of pointless stuff to do.

 

B*llsh*t Baffles Brains is the philosophy.   Having guys press razor creases into trousers, polish toecaps to mirror shines, paint rocks white, etc etc....    it keeps them busy and raging againt the DS and not getting angry with each other and brawling or getting drunk or getting bored and doing something crazy.

 

Hm, that's a useful insight. I guess the ISD is going go be kept very clean. could you tell me what DS stands for?

 

 

MPs as support service *really* are more there for movement and lines of communication control.    Garrisoned troops really have daily discipline looked after by 'regimental provosts' and NCO 'duty officers'.  Or at least that how it used to work in the UK.

 

With stormtroopers you're looking at a mix of clone and biological fanatically loyal elite troops.  I think the *only* real world comparison would be 'hitler youth'.   I dont think they would have that many internal discipline problems...  too busy sneering at the 'lesser units' and training hard.

 

What sort of things are you thinking about for 'movement and lines of communication control', how might that work in the context of an ISD and its deployable stormtrooper legion?

 

Again, I imagine that the disciplinary side of things is more for the naval crew than for the officers. I also imagine that there is a high level of organizational mistrust between the stormtrooper corps and the navy. In many ways the Emperor created a lot of rivalries in order to maintain control. It's not all one big happy Empire of camaraderie.

 

 

Òf course, you realize mikael, once you finish with the crew breakdown for the ISD, you have to do the executer.

 

NOOOOOOOO!!!!

[Jo Jo 4,808]

I'm guessing DS is Drill Sergeant.

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

I still think that those academies are for the officer corps, not the enlisted. While the stormtroopers may have been trained to be that rigid and loyal, but about 60% of the people aboard the ISD are neither commissioned nor a stormtrooper. They're just enlisted navy crewers.

Heir to the Empire indicates that the Empire made extensive use of forced conscription. While the book was specifically dealing with the imperial remnant, the implication is that it was a standard practice. It also makes a great deal of sense, even non-totalitarian regimes on earth in the not too distant past would press gang bodies into becoming sailors.

Such recruitment likely requires even more oversight, plus on ship job training.