tournamemt play

[duder 42]

We are playing a store tournament today. One group was still playing and time was up. Once the game was over, player a asked if player b would concede the game to him so he'd get the full 100 point victory. Once this was questioned by other tournament players, player a said this was ok because he and players b were friends, and player a usually does very well at local tournaments, and player a felt player b had no chance of winning. Player b did decline, but TO felt this was collusion and warned all tournament players if they were caught doing this they would be kicked from the tournament. What are everyone's thoughts about this? Do you agree with the TO? Player A complained about player b not accepting the concede. And player A felt he did nothing wrong.

[TezzasGames 1,014]

From the Tournament Rules, under Unsportsmanlike Conduct:

"Collusion among players to manipulate scoring is expressly forbidden. The TO, at his sole discretion, may remove players from the tournament for unsportsmanlike conduct."

 

Given what you described, the TO was probably correct, especially with Player A asking for the concession.

 

Magic the Gathering permits intentional draws and concessions (provided there are no 'offerings' or 'bribes' from one player to the other). 

 

It appears that X-Wing does not permit intentional draws or 'agreed concessions'.  However, if one player concedes to the other, it might be difficult to prove that there was collusion between those players.

Edited February 8, 2015 by TezzasGames

[duder 42]

I've heard that player a is quite a good magic player

[TezzasGames 1,014]

Magic has been around longer and the higher level games demand an in-depth tournament policy document.  Player A was probably assuming that what works in Magic should also work in X-Wing - not so.

 

These are the sorts of issues that FFG can learn from and it will be great to see them implemented in the rumoured Judge Program.

[duder 42]

I'd also like point out player a is a bit of a condescending ****.

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

"Hey, since were friends, can we say that I played better than I did so that I can progress further in the tournament?"

 

God, sometimes I really hate tournaments.

[StevenO 2,996]

With MoV being used as a tie-breaker this should be a much smaller issue than it had been in the beginning.  When you needed to either sweep the board or at least have a 30+ point lead in kills to get a Full-Win there was a lot more reason to offer a concession when you were going to lose a close game.  Giving your opponent a full win helped your SoS while the full loss didn't hurt any more than a close loss.  Going down to 12 points to decide a game helped with that and using MoV instead of SoS also helps.

[duder 42]

I'd also like, to say player a also had a big problem with 2 players facing each other for the second time this tournamemt

[Parravon 5,217]

Each tournament match ends in one of the following three ways:

1. The time limit is reached
2. Total destruction of one side or both
3. One player voluntarily concedes at any point during the match.

So in theory, you can't play until the time limit is reached and then ask for a concession. If player A supposedly does well at tournaments, I'd be wondering how many times he's pulled this routine.

[Buhallin 4,563]

Each tournament match ends in one of the following three ways:

1. The time limit is reached
2. ...
3. One player voluntarily concedes at any point during the match.

So in theory, you can't play until the time limit is reached and then ask for a concession.

This isn't quite right.  The match doesn't end when time is called - it ends when, at the end of a round, time has been called.  An important difference.  So a player can theoretically concede even after time has been called, right up until the End Phase of the final round.

 

This particular situation is considerably muddied by this:

 

It is considered good sportsmanship to concede defeat when there is no reasonable chance of victory.

 

It's a rather debated element of the tournament rules (IMHO it's a hold-over from pre-MoV scoring that needs to be removed), but it is in there.  If the second player was clearly in a "can't win" position when time was called, I'm not sure you can fault the first for asking for the concession.  I'm pretty sure it shouldn't actually rise to the level of collusion - it's not like one of them intentionally tanked the match for the other, and it's a situation which, like it or not, is explicitly described by FFG as not only acceptable but good sportsmanship.

[Parravon 5,217]

Yes I know that the current round resolves after time is called. Stop being pedantic, Buhallin. The point in question was the third one - the one on conceding.

The time limit had been reached, the round was finished, the match was over. Asking for the concession at this stage was just being rude. And then to say "it's OK because we're friends..." to try and justify it, and complain when B didn't want to concede was just disrespectful.

Player B didn't concede during the match, nor did he want to after the match was over. Clearly he didn't want to hand A a full points win, regardless of how hopeless his situation was by the end. 

Edited February 8, 2015 by Parravon

[duder 42]

When player a asked player b to concede, time was up and the last round was completely finished. We were just shocked that player a even thought to ask such a thing. At our store championship, there were our group, and a group of players from a different area. But I think this goes even futher than that. I realize this is a tournament, but player a ONLY shows up to win. Now, I get that is part of it, but it doesn't seem player a has an ounce of fun while playing. It also seems that player a and his group only play builds they know are good, even at their casual night, because, "its a good list, why would I play anything else?" Mind you, with the people who show up to our casual night are constantly trying new things so that we can have fun and actually enjoy the game.

[duder 42]

I'd also like to mention that player a uses magic dice as shields, not actual shield tokens. Also, player a keeps all his upgrade cards in one sleeve so we can't see them during the game. He will show them at the start of the game, but will give attitude if you ask to see them during the match

[Krynn007 2,445]

"Hey, since were friends, can we say that I played better than I did so that I can progress further in the tournament?"

 

God, sometimes I really hate tournaments.

It's not the tournament, but some people I hate.

It's too bad a broken nose can lead to assault charges because some people need a good one.

I'm not a people person btw

Btw the to should have thrown player A out. Especially if he is a jackass.

Imo this is totally not allowed.

Actually to handled it very well. A stern warning. If I heard player a complain about it I'd say there's the door have a nice day

[duder 42]

I agree about the people thing Shinigami. I'm actually thinking about skipping the next tournament just because of that guy.

[Krynn007 2,445]

I'd also like to mention that player a uses magic dice as shields, not actual shield tokens. Also, player a keeps all his upgrade cards in one sleeve so we can't see them during the game. He will show them at the start of the game, but will give attitude if you ask to see them during the match

I'd love to play this type of player. I'd ask him over and over just get under his skin

Also i believe the rules state everything has to be in plain view. As a to i wouldn't allow this.

As a player I'd ask every time a ship moves, rolls dic, opponent.

From what you tell me about this player I don't like him at all

[Krynn007 2,445]

I agree about the people thing Shinigami. I'm actually thinking about skipping the next tournament just because of that guy.

Actually I'd go and do everything that this player doesn't like and beat the socks right off him, and give a nice casual gloat only he would herE

One thing I hate are assholes and I'll go out of my way to be that guy just to piss them off more

Edit

You really shouldn't have to avoid doing something you like because someone is a ******.

Go have fun

Anyone who plays this guy should stick right by the book

I'd say I want him to put shield tokens out. Not dice

Dice is hard to see and can be manipulated easier

As for his cards I'd request for him to have them all laid out

I'd get the to over and get him involved.

I would think from the sound of it this would make him very flustered.

During the game I'd play strict by the book.

If he makes it others can't have fun, I'd make it so he doesn't have fun

After beating him I think a smirk would be enough

Edited February 8, 2015 by Krynn007

[ScottieATF 2,867]

A player asking thier opponent to essentially alter the match scoring would absolutely be collusion. That Player A asked at all could have resulted in him being removed. Perhaps should have.

However, what does Player A's choice in what he chooses to play during his own free time during a casual game night have to do with this thread? It seems the OP has some wierd issue with Player A that needs to be rectified between those two and not in a rules forum thread.

[duder 42]

This is where we come and ask questions and talk about issues, or am I wrong?

[duder 42]

Also Shinigami, player a tends to play very fast and does things so fast, its hard to keep tract of. But I also think its done to confuse his opponent or that he is worried players will stall for time

[Krynn007 2,445]

Let him rush.

I'd play at my normal speed

I would not rush myself just because of some ******, nor would I slow play.

But if he happens to rush along, I can almost see with this type of player if anyone should happen to take longer than him that would be enough to annoy him

I'd also be very sure that if he forgot something say declare to recloak after shooting with whisper. If he tried to do it in the planning phase I'd say too late pal, maybe you should slow down some.

If he wanted to get the TO invloved then I'd say go ahead

This would fall under missed opportunity

This guy sounds like a complete jerk, and I wouldn't go out of my way at all To help him

In fact as I said, I'd request all pieces to be visible etc etc

[duder 42]

I agree again Shinigami

[Krynn007 2,445]

Never know maybe if it was brought to his attention that people think he's a jerk, maybe he would cool his jets, or maybe stop going knowing he's not well liked

[duder 42]

I doubt he would stop going because he buys stuff with the store credit he wins

[Parravon 5,217]

Yeah, you've got to hate those games against the win-at-all-costs types that just suck the fun out of it for you. I play to enjoy a game regardless of win or loss. I hope the day I stop enjoying it, is the day they have to bury me.

 

As for the dice instead of tokens, and keeping all his upgrades in one sleeve. Yeah, breaking a couple of tournament rules there, so why not add a few more to the list. When they desperately have to win, the rules are the first things these clowns bypass.