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DraconPyrothayan

Post-midnight bolt-out-of-bed mad scientist moment. RE: Fortress

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- assault missiles would make mincemeat of that formation

The fleet is also viable when not fortressing. This is one of the reasons that's important.

 

- HLC toting defenders/B-wings/large based ships sniping at you from range 3 would out-last your ints

Again, the goal is not to stay put during combat itself. It's to force combat to occur on the field of your choosing.

 

 

- as noted above several ships appear to be overhanging the desired set-up zone:-/

As noted, this was an error, and the formation is sound without it. Would you like me to post new pics instead, with that fixed?

 

 

"we" is anybody wanting to actually have fun with this game, thats right-it's a game-fun is the the whole point of it. if i wanted pure out-and-out strategy i'd play go or chess...

If the only way for you to have fun is for your opponents to purposefully ignore a clever tactic, then I wish you all the impotent rage in the world.

 

'Til then, I'll enjoy the tense feeling of that key turn, of figuring out whether to spring the trap or how to close the gap without them doing so, and the whirlwind of turns in the fall-out. It's an adrenaline rush, and builds the excitement with anticipation.

 

Also, is there something wrong with Chess?

 

 

sorry, i didn't mean to sound like an aggressive a$$. i enjoy the threads exploring the strategic and tactical nuances of the game and as such you make an interesting thread so fair play...

 

(i still think fortressing sucks a$$ as far as a strategy to play on the table goes though and would say so to anybody actually having the adenoids to do it...)

Fair enough. Hope to actually fight you with it sometime.  ;)

Edited by DraconPyrothayan

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I'm all for exploring new strategies and playing on your terms not your opponents.  But I'm pretty sure letting your opponent approach you on his terms != playing on your terms.  But even if we ignore that part and we talk about the approach - I have a hard time seeing how it is viable.  

 

So, you're in this perfect position where no one moves and no one gets actions.  Most lists these days seem to either have a phantom or a turret in them (or both).  So, the first round of engagement, you're hoping is at R3 and in the fortress.  At which point your idea is that you have 2.35 expected <evades>  and so really you won't be taking damage.  But on attack, you'll have 2 shooting getting 1.94 <booms>.  So, against a fat han, you should be doing 1-2 damage (C3PO + Evade token + 4 dice rolls).  So, in the perfect world, you evaded all his damage and done two shields to your opponent.  Not bad.

 

But then what?  You said you'd spring the trap and go after him?  But being a turret, he's going to do a 3 bank away and not care that you're not in arc since he can shoot backwards.  Now he has R1 shots with F because no one has arc on him.  So you turn to where he's going to go - in which case he bumps you and you STILL don't have a shot.  Note, this is the case for the Decimator and YT-2400 as well.  The attack numbers are abit different, but I don't see how you win the following engagement.

 

But blah blah blah, turrets are OP and it'll be anything else.  So a Phantom approaches your fortress.  It has 5 agility, and Focus token (since it's likely to get damage through with her 4 dice) against your two 1.94 <booms>.  You're not going to do any damage to you, and she's going to likely ping a hull.  Probably with a crit too.  But now the next turn, she's going to decloak... and she could decloak forward, and then 4k, which for sure puts her behind where you were if you break the fortress, which might be a bit of a gamble, so perhaps she just decloaks inside, and runs away, and lets you chase her without shots... Now she knows what you're going to do, and she's broken your fortress, at which point picking them off one at a time isn't a problem for not.  Not to mention the remaining 60 points of her list.

 

 

 

Oh, and that initiative win thing - that only works in elimination rounds.  During the swiss, you'll both end up with a draw, which is worth 1 point, and is pretty much as a good as a loss.  You're better off with a Win and a Loss than a Draw and a Modified.  That's how crappy a draw is in the swiss play.

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110041-it-could-work-gif-Imgur-Young-0bq

 

[...] (as, among other things, I can't figure out how to work Vassal properly).

 

 

FTFY.

 

Behold:

 

Initial Setup for the Squint Fortress

Note that Alpha #2 is a little bit beyond the border of the Range 1 setup zone, indicated by the mid-image horizontal white bar.  Also note that Howlrunner has a little bit of room to move closer to the bottom edge, so the above is not a big deal and the reason it's not perfect is because it's a pain to move ships that are angled at small increments in Vassal.  So it's not going to be "picture-perfect", which will become clear in the next image.  But it is "good enough".  Lastly, note that #4 is not angled inwards at all; he is parallel to the edge.  This is because he cannot be angled at a small enough angle in Vassal to tilt towards the board center and still fit on top of Howlrunner legally in the setup area.  DraconPyrothayan's initial setup was also very inexact, with Howlrunner off the edge.  With the miniature in hand, you will be able to fiddle with it a bit and achieve a more optimal tilt.

 

Squint%20Fortress%201.png

 

First Round Fortress-Get

Squint #1 performs a 3-K.  Squint #1 is now in position, and everyone else can move accordingly.

Note that, as I said, it's not perfect as pictured.  Squints #1 and #2 will touch as soon as #2 performs his 1-Turn to the right.  However, you can also easily see that #2 will still be in sufficient position to block #3's move.  

Squint%20Fortress%202.png

 

Proof that it remains stationary

Perhaps the most important part of any fortress is, "can you move so that it actually stays in place?"  This is true of this fortress, and although the image is cluttered, you should be able to tell that all ship moves will result in them overlapping and thus immobile after the first round.  Squints #1 and #4 perform a 1-Turn to the left, while Squints #2 and #3 perform a 1-Turn to the right, and Howlrunner performs a 2-Forward.

The ship outlines present their final position if they were to complete the maneuvers listed, providing evidence of the successful blocks.

Proof%20of%20Immobility.png

 

Firing Arcs of the Fortress

Setting up in the corner prevents the opponent from flanking behind forward-arc ships.  This is the main disadvantage non-turreted ships have when attempting a fortress compared to their arc-ignoring relatives.  This shows that, along the alleys, there is no way to avoid being in the arc of two 3-dice 1-reroll attacks.  The opponent must attack from the center if he wants a clear approach.

Firing%20Arcs.png

 

Ideal Asteroid Placement

Therefore, you must set up an obstacle to deny that approach.  Here we see the denial of the clear lane using the largest asteroid.  As DraconPyrothayan pointed out in his original post, he is making an initiative bid with points.  You should be able to nab that asteroid for yourself, no problem.  I did not make it clear from this image, but that asteroid is just barely at Range 2 from the Imperial edge.

Ideal%20Asteroid%20Placement.png

 

 

And there you have it, folks.  DraconPyrothayan's take on the fortress.

I suspect the numbers will not be favorable while maintaining formation, but this is mere suspicion.  And, as DraconPyrothayan says, it's not about staying in formation all the time...it's about knowing when to break it.  The squint dials are very helpful in this regard, as you have many options no matter which angle the attacker takes.  (Also, be careful to note that squint #1 is never able to clear stress, at least as I have it pictured.  A 2-Turn takes him off the board and a 2-Bank doesn't have him in contact anymore.  This will not affect his offense or defense when in the fortress, but it suddenly becomes relevant again when you break formation.)

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You know... I fully understand the appeal and resoning behind using this tactic. However it flies directly (pun intended) in the face of the spirit of the game. Much like many examples of cheese lists in 40k or decks in MTG; if you run a list like this, you also run the risk of being labeled "that guy" and believe me its not worth it.

 

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

 

common-sense-just-because-you-can-doesn-

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Thank you so much, Sparklelord!

Also, be careful to note that squint #1 is never able to clear stress, at least as I have it pictured.  A 2-Turn takes him off the board and a 2-Bank doesn't have him in contact anymore.  This will not affect his offense or defense when in the fortress, but it suddenly becomes relevant again when you break formation.

I tested this in my formation (nudge-flawed though it was), and while the 2-Turn did take me off the board, it ALSO clipped a fellow interceptor, is therefore a collision, and rewound into its stationary position. 

 

Basically, my two center-ceptors were a bit more shallowly angled, so they had a small amount of space around the rock (but not enough for a full window. If the enemy is ON the rock, then they can't shoot, unless they have Dash Crewdar), to enable that 2turn to collide.

Edited by DraconPyrothayan

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You can also line up 4 sigmas in such a way that they cloak turn 1 and then run into each other with 2 forwards until the turn you want to decloak and spring upon your opponent. It's somewhat less pure fortress in that they won't have guns, but you should be somewhat safe with the 4 evade dice to take a shot or two until you can jump onto your opponent. You should also set up a rock screen right in front of where you plan on doing this to forcibly adjust their approach.

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You can also line up 4 sigmas in such a way that they cloak turn 1 and then run into each other with 2 forwards until the turn you want to decloak and spring upon your opponent. It's somewhat less pure fortress in that they won't have guns, but you should be somewhat safe with the 4 evade dice to take a shot or two until you can jump onto your opponent. You should also set up a rock screen right in front of where you plan on doing this to forcibly adjust their approach.

A fortress that's invisible, brilliant. This is almost a 4x Shuttle, 8x Tactician tier of cheese. I tip my hat to you good sir.

So how important is the ability to attack during the fortress phase as opposed to the trap spring phase? Invisible Fortress could work.

Edited by ParaGoomba Slayer

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Well, seems fun, and will be fun, but...

 

Any particular reason you felt the need to dredge up a four month old thread with this comment?

 

I linked it in another thread that was discussing 4x Interceptors + Howlrunner.

As I did the last time this got necroed.

 

It's easier to link to this discussion than re-type the danged thing in a comment anyway :-p

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Just thought I'd point out that you could do this with any 5 small ship build. I see why you chose this group though.

 

 

You can also line up 4 sigmas in such a way that they cloak turn 1 and then run into each other with 2 forwards until the turn you want to decloak and spring upon your opponent. It's somewhat less pure fortress in that they won't have guns, but you should be somewhat safe with the 4 evade dice to take a shot or two until you can jump onto your opponent. You should also set up a rock screen right in front of where you plan on doing this to forcibly adjust their approach.

A fortress that's invisible, brilliant. This is almost a 4x Shuttle, 8x Tactician tier of cheese. I tip my hat to you good sir.

So how important is the ability to attack during the fortress phase as opposed to the trap spring phase? Invisible Fortress could work.

 

Commenting to both of these simultaneously, as I see them as rather linked.

My method of list-building was:

  1. No large ships. They require too much space to work into the ramming formation, and therefore limit the amount of arc overlap. Even with twinned turrets, where most of their venn diagram will be approached from off the board, and is therefore irrelevant for our purposes, leaving us only with the vulnerability of having one ship being attacked while the rest do nothing.

     

  2. Greater expected damage than 3 naked attack dice per ship. Howlrunner looks like an exception, but is really here as a buff for the others, with a mostly vestigial attack of her own.

     

  3. High mobility, so that I can un-fortress when I wish, and "spring the trap".

     

  4. Higher than normal survivability at Range 3, where a fortress may engage. Autothrusters + 3 agility has decent mitigation for the last round of baiting: I do not expect to die at this juncture.

     

Notably, 4 Phantoms may also serve this purpose. 

Decloaking into combat allows for swift and terrible retribution, and 4 dice attacks definitely fit the bill of being better than a 3 die attack.

 

However, you would have to allow all 4 phantoms a full move before the collisions start to allow them all to cloak!

 

But... if you're planning on leaving them cloaked before the first round of combat, you exclusively have to concern yourself with the Trap, rather than covering any arcs, allowing a much different picture for the collision base...

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Just thought I'd point out that you could do this with any 5 small ship build. I see why you chose this group though.

 

 

You can also line up 4 sigmas in such a way that they cloak turn 1 and then run into each other with 2 forwards until the turn you want to decloak and spring upon your opponent. It's somewhat less pure fortress in that they won't have guns, but you should be somewhat safe with the 4 evade dice to take a shot or two until you can jump onto your opponent. You should also set up a rock screen right in front of where you plan on doing this to forcibly adjust their approach.

A fortress that's invisible, brilliant. This is almost a 4x Shuttle, 8x Tactician tier of cheese. I tip my hat to you good sir.

So how important is the ability to attack during the fortress phase as opposed to the trap spring phase? Invisible Fortress could work.

 

Commenting to both of these simultaneously, as I see them as rather linked.

My method of list-building was:

  1. No large ships. They require too much space to work into the ramming formation, and therefore limit the amount of arc overlap. Even with twinned turrets, where most of their venn diagram will be approached from off the board, and is therefore irrelevant for our purposes, leaving us only with the vulnerability of having one ship being attacked while the rest do nothing.

     

  2. Greater expected damage than 3 naked attack dice per ship. Howlrunner looks like an exception, but is really here as a buff for the others, with a mostly vestigial attack of her own.

     

  3. High mobility, so that I can un-fortress when I wish, and "spring the trap".

     

  4. Higher than normal survivability at Range 3, where a fortress may engage. Autothrusters + 3 agility has decent mitigation for the last round of baiting: I do not expect to die at this juncture.

     

Notably, 4 Phantoms may also serve this purpose. 

Decloaking into combat allows for swift and terrible retribution, and 4 dice attacks definitely fit the bill of being better than a 3 die attack.

 

However, you would have to allow all 4 phantoms a full move before the collisions start to allow them all to cloak!

 

But... if you're planning on leaving them cloaked before the first round of combat, you exclusively have to concern yourself with the Trap, rather than covering any arcs, allowing a much different picture for the collision base...

 

 

 

The full move is actually really easy, and since like you said the point of the Phantom Phortress is a trap you aren't concerned about arcs, so you set them up like so:

 

1> [.5 base] 2> [6.5 base] <3 [.5 base] <4 and then move them all 2 forward, starting with #2 and #3 and all cloak. The next turn you move #2 2 forward, colliding between 3 and 4, pushing back to touching 3. You then move #1 2 forward, colliding and allowing the 2 forward from 3 and 4 to also collide, leaving you with 1>2><3<4 all cloaked after 2 turns of movement. From there you just do 2 forwards with everyone until you're ready to spring out.

 

If you've positioned the collision point well and set up your rock screen correctly in front of the Phortress line you should hopefully have made your opponent engage on your terms, and since you can decloak all the phantoms to engage in any order you have a lot of options to spring the trap, including just moving everyone out towards the middle of the board with a decloak and then turning 1 hard to point 4 guns outward.

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Your Fortress could just be a square formation pointing towards itself. Once it's setup you could just hard 1 turn into the ship diagonally opposite of it.

Once you spring the trap you pick the appropriate candy canes and one volley their Super Dash lol. It might be able to deal with an opponent that tries to go for the last turn snipe better than a visible fortress would. The trap you spring might be able to wipe something more than 25 points lol.

And let's say your opponent does go for the end game snipe. You spring the trap, wipe something to win on MoV, and then you simply cloak back up and focus/evade and run for the last few turns. That's an immeasurable amount of trolling.

Edited by ParaGoomba Slayer

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You know... I fully understand the appeal and resoning behind using this tactic. However it flies directly (pun intended) in the face of the spirit of the game.

You mean like turrets?

 

BOOM

 

 

Shots fired

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Well, seems fun, and will be fun, but...

 

Any particular reason you felt the need to dredge up a four month old thread with this comment?

 

I linked it in another thread that was discussing 4x Interceptors + Howlrunner.

As I did the last time this got necroed.

 

It's easier to link to this discussion than re-type the danged thing in a comment anyway :-p

 

 

If it was linked then it's fair enough.

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"Hey, I'm just playing what's best and in every competitive game certain things will rise to the top. Fortresses don't ruin the game, you just need to adapt and play better. *trollface* "

 

"I'm just playing what's best" -

- means you're not playing a fortress.

Being a strategy allowed within the rules of the game doesn't make it a sensible strategy. Fortresses kill your action economy and telegraph your next maneuver (nowhere) to your opponent every round. Neither are things you really want to do.

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