Post-midnight bolt-out-of-bed mad scientist moment. RE: Fortress

[DraconPyrothayan 6,107]

 

So, the cat's out of the bag. I am afraid that I work freight tomorrow, and am unlikely to be able to post actual images (as, among other things, I can't figure out how to work Vassal properly).

 

Still, here is a list designed to fortress, and do it supremely well!

4x Alpha Squadron Pilots (18 point lvl 1 Interceptors)

+ Autothrusters

 

Howlrunner

 

98 points total.

 

They are arranged either in an Arc or an H that's been rotated 45*. Either way, it's perfectly symmetrical along the line from corner to corner.

• Two interceptors in the middle of the Arc are facing opposite directions. They're performing 2 banks, running into the interceptors on the edges, and having to back into their current positions. They should be cocked a little to the sides, as driving straight into each other wastes significant slivers of their firing arcs.
• Two interceptors on the outside of the Arc are doing 1 turns into the ships in the middle. They should be initially angled so that the edge of their firing arc is more-or-less parallel to the edge of the board, to minimize the space wasted by its proximity.
• The large asteroid sits in the blind-spot of the two in the middle, guarding their flanks.
• Howlrunner sits inside the arc, and moves to collide with it once the opponents have set up and partially moved their fleet.

The Interceptors have elevated Attack AND Defense at Range 3, thanks to Howlrunner and the Autothrusters.

You have initiative, so the opponent is compelled to attack into you.

At any angle, your opponent will be flying into at least 2 arcs, and usually a third from Howlrunner.

 

Now, the truly glorious part: The Interceptors are mobile enough that they can do an explosive death-swirl so that all 5 ships can attack any single point in close enough proximity to them.

This fortress is a Lure and a Trap, like the snake that flicks the tip of its tail about like a worm.

 

 

I look forward to being able to actually being able to show the death-swirls

[Stelar 7 888]

Use a camera and your miniatures, I want to see this monster. It sounds interesting, and I've had a warm place in my heart for Alphas ever since my first game, with my own toys, when they roasted Luke.

[Blail Blerg 7,588]

Do it.  I want to see it. Death Blossom Lotus Fist

[DraconPyrothayan 6,107]

Okay. Turns out you can't fit it into position fully in the Range 1 corner.
However, you CAN set it up so that it locks into the repeating algorithm on Turn 2!

Pictures to follow!

[Bikeanimal 196]

I thought we didn't like fortress'ing...?

[DraconPyrothayan 6,107]

Use a camera and your miniatures, I want to see this monster. It sounds interesting, and I've had a warm place in my heart for Alphas ever since my first game, with my own toys, when they roasted Luke.

 

Do it.  I want to see it. Death Blossom Lotus Fist

 

I've reconstructed the idea of the formation using the first TIE Fighter bases I had, and done so without ships for clarity's sake, on my piano bench. My gaming table isn't set up, and I wanted to get this out before I have to go in to work today

 

On this one, you can see that there's only 1 interceptor actually on/past the green line.

Also, in actually setting it up, I found that the two on the interior need to do 2 Turns, and not 2 Banks.

The pocket there in the centre is enough room for Howlrunner and some wiggle-room, so that she can maneuver into position as promised.

 

Now: for the actual approach: Turn 1 set-up actually looks like this

 

As you can see, the errant Interceptor approaches with a 3 Koiogran on turn 1, and then you're set for everyone bonking properly.

 

Now, this is an incredibly delicate thing during set-up, so I'd suggest starting with post A, then manually reversing the Koiogran so that it's a legal start, as otherwise construction gets complicated. Screwing this up stops the chain reaction, so it's important to practice setting up until you can do it reliably.

Don't practice until you get it right. Practice until you can't get it wrong.

 

 

 

As you can see, I've included the Asteroid. You may want to use your other asteroids to similarly crowd that gap as well, or make the angle of the two inner-ceptors more extreme than I have done here, to better forestall an attack from that flank.

 

However, no matter how your opponent approaches, your Interceptors will easily collapse on them.

 

• If they come from a 90* angle (parallel to either side), then 4 of your 5 ships should have no difficulty getting into jousting position. The ship that's facing away from the side, however, can do any Turn and a Boost, and still have a clear shot on them.
• If they come from a 45* angle (through the asteroids), then Turns from the inner-ceptors and Banks from the outer-ceptors make for a lovely Pincer attack.
• If they come from a 27* (Between the Asteroid and the Wall), then you have the options to blend the two previous modes.

 

If I could get Vassal to work, I'd love to show you how their arcs overlap in the actual strikes, to outline kill-zones the most efficiently.

[DraconPyrothayan 6,107]

I thought we didn't like fortress'ing...?

Who's "We", kemosabe?

[Sparklelord 731]

I thought we didn't like fortress'ing...?

We don't.

But until there's a competitively viable fortress for all but the corner cases, the devs aren't going to feel compelled to do anything.

So there's a slight onus to the players to optimize/broaden the scope of fortresses.

That said, the epitome of fortress thought is solidly rooted in a good strategy, which is, "wait for your opponent to make a mistake." The execution of that strategy in a fortress build is cheesy to the point of lunacy in the context of this game's flavor, though, which is why we don't actually like it.

[DraconPyrothayan 6,107]

And, of course, if you DON"T want to do this, then you can always fly as a more typical 4x Interceptor + Howlrunner swarmish thing.

[DraconPyrothayan 6,107]

 

I thought we didn't like fortress'ing...?

The epitome of fortress thought is solidly rooted in a good strategy, which is, "wait for your opponent to make a mistake."

 

In actual gaming jargon, a Fortress build prevents Zugzwang: the German word for when the compulsion to move puts you in a worse position than where you started: a concept clearly shown in Chess and Checkers, but is a major factor in any positional game.

 

Fortressing is a Tactic more than it is a Strategy. It is not a path to victory on its own, and I've made great attempts to emphasize that it is a Trap.[/Ackbar]

When your opponent looks like they will be in one of the aforementioned Kill-Zones, you SHOULD break formation and attack them, on your terms.

The general idea is that you fight on your terms, or not at all. As you have initiative, if your opponent chooses "not at all", then you break the tie in a timed tournament, so they are basically forced to comply to your preferred battleground to have a shot. Nasty, ain't it?

 

Also, I've been kind of in love with the idea since it first hit the forums, and have been trying to make it viable for quite some time.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/127056-i-am-a-sick-puppy/

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/127765-continuing-ideas-for-the-ideal-fortress/

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/133299-post-your-fortress-list/

[Stone37 3,353]

Biggs Walks the Dogs would eat this list for breakfast.

My prediction would be one or two dead Alphas before they even shoot.

 

I'm sure this list would give two ship builds problems though.  You'd still be counting on those mean green dice though...

[PewPewPew 1,083]

So if someone comes into range two from the side you get two arcs and no auto thrust vs the whole fleet.

[Stone37 3,353]

So if someone comes into range two from the side you get two arcs and no auto thrust vs the whole fleet.

Bingo!

[DraconPyrothayan 6,107]

Biggs Walks the Dogs would eat this list for breakfast.

My prediction would be one or two dead Alphas before they even shoot.

 

I'm sure this list would give two ship builds problems though.  You'd still be counting on those mean green dice though...

Green Dice + Autothrusters, yes. After Autothruster range, see my response to Pew Pew Pew

Definitely gives 2-ship lists an issue, as one of the 2 ships is invariably a Flanker with no flank to exploit.

Also, Biggs goes down fairly quickly once the trap has been sprung, at which point the Daggers' advantage is in their ability to knife-fight, whereas my advantage is the superior ability to disengage and regroup.

Also, the not-having--1-agility-while-outnumbered bit.

 

So if someone comes into range two from the side you get two arcs and no auto thrust vs the whole fleet.

If someone comes into Range Two, I really ought to have sprung my trap already.

A Fortress that is Permanent is actually just a self-enforced Prison, and that usually loses.

 

Moreover, that vulnerability is noted, and an Asteroid Cluster is suggested to make that approach more difficult, guiding them more predictably into a kill-zone.

Edited February 5, 2015 by DraconPyrothayan

[Slugrage 5,011]

The ability to hold a secure position, and unleash hell on your opponent, is a very viable battle strategy. Just ask the French how the Battle of Agincourt went, with those **** fortressing English archers.

[Stone37 3,353]

So... no tokens, just Howlrunner and Autothrusters?

 

At Range 2, those B-wings (with a TL) will be scoring an average of 1.25 hits on your set up.  2 hits 30% of the time and 3 hits 12% of the time.  Biggs (if he saves his focus for defense) will average 1 hit 27% of the time and 2 hits 14% of the time.  There is a really good chance that if only two of your Alphas had attacks that only one (or none) will be firing back.

 

Because the Alphas are PS1, so there is no "springing a trap" against the beast that is the B-wing.  That barrel roll is murder.

 

Thanks for sharing the idea.  I actually think Alphas might see more use thanks to autothrusters. 

[DraconPyrothayan 6,107]

Because the Alphas are PS1, so there is no "springing a trap" against the beast that is the B-wing.  That barrel roll is murder.

"Springing the Trap" requires knowing where your pre-planned "Kill-Zones" are, and when your opposing fleet is going to be entering them.

 

I do say "Going to be", as that decision is made in the planning phase, and there are very few viable maneuver options when your opponent is going forward into a corner, with an edge looming.

 

Yes, the Barrel-Roll is your best chance at breaking out of the Kill-Zone, but it's not a guaranteed out. Neither is Decloak, for that matter, and that's way more potent.

 

The Kill-Zone to which I refer involves all 5 of my ships having a Range 1-2 shot on an area, and there are several of these, depending on the maneuvers I use to break formation. The Range 3 paint is much wider, and against 5 ships, your theoretical B-Wing is still going to have trouble.

 

It's still a game of reading your opponent at that key moment, for both parties. Its your maneuver that enables your barrel-roll to save you, or your radical choice to do a 2 koiogran, facing away from where my fleet has been for several turns now, that would allow you to counter.

 

 

 

Biggs walks the Dags is a bad match-up for a fortress because of Biggs, not as such the Bs.

[DraconPyrothayan 6,107]

However, it certainly sounds like we'd have an interesting game, with both of us insisting that we have the advantage.

Swords at Dawn?

[PewPewPew 1,083]

At PS1 your opponent will see your trap before they even set up. What if they simply ignore you? Or wait for the last two minutes in a round to use their superior PS to snipe one guy and let time do the rest? Your ships only have 3hp and if your ultimate trick is to "play normally" I don't see the advantage because your turtled position, based on the picture, doesn't have enough coverage.

[Lord_Squinty 40]

On this one, you can see that there's only 1 interceptor actually on/past the green line.

 

 

 

You also appear to have 2 hanging off the table, which isn't allowed during setup?

It might just be the edge of the table is angled making it look that way, but the bottom one is definately further back than the range ruler

Edited February 5, 2015 by Lord_Squinty

[DraconPyrothayan 6,107]

You also appear to have 2 hanging off the table, which isn't allowed during setup?

It might just be the edge of the table is angled making it look that way, but the bottom one is definately further back than the range ruler

Pictures were a rush-job. Planned as a proof-of-concept, and there was some careless jostling involved. You are correct, though.

[Bikeanimal 196]

 

I thought we didn't like fortress'ing...?

Who's "We", kemosabe?

 

 

"we" is anybody wanting to actually have fun with this game, thats right-it's a game-fun is the the whole point of it. if i wanted pure out-and-out strategy i'd play go or chess...

 

 

The ability to hold a secure position, and unleash hell on your opponent, is a very viable battle strategy. Just ask the French how the Battle of Agincourt went, with those **** fortressing English archers.

 

that wasn't fortressing-i've seen no references to units deliberately bumping into each other to stop movement and force your opponent to come to you before the turn bell expires...

 

getting back to brass tacks; there are several issues with this strategy;

 

- assault missiles would make mincemeat of that formation

- HLC toting defenders/B-wings/large based ships sniping at you from range 3 would out-last your ints

- as noted above several ships appear to be overhanging the desired set-up zone:-/

[DraconPyrothayan 6,107]

Incidentally, an Autothruster at Range 3 on an Interceptor has appx 2.35 expected evades, or 1.88 against secondary weapons.

 

The Howlrunner'd attack dice have 1.94 expected damage.

[Bikeanimal 196]

sorry, i didn't mean to sound like an aggressive a$$. i enjoy the threads exploring the strategic and tactical nuances of the game and as such you make an interesting thread so fair play...

 

(i still think fortressing sucks a$$ as far as a strategy to play on the table goes though and would say so to anybody actually having the adenoids to do it...)

[Jo Jo 4,814]

Biggs Walks the Dogs would eat this list for breakfast.

My prediction would be one or two dead Alphas before they even shoot.

 

I'm sure this list would give two ship builds problems though.  You'd still be counting on those mean green dice though...

 

How many people have you actually seen run Biggs Walks the Dogs lately?