The A-Wing Swarm and Its Variations

[SpikeSpiegel 2,077]

I thought I'd bring up some interesting theorycrafting and thought processes I have in particular to 3 kinds of A-Wing Swarms, and as a general rule of thumb, all A-Wings in discussion are equipped with the Chardaan Refit:

1. 4 Prototypes + 2 Green Squadrons w/PtL

2. 5 Greens with PtL

3. 4 Greens with PtL, Predator and Autothrusters

1. The first list offers the most ships and the most red dice while still not insta-losing all of the PS bid with two Greens accompanying them. I think this list has the firepower to bring down Swarms, the maneuverability to tackle Phantoms and the agility to outlast Turrets. The Protos are also capable of moving and taking actions prior to most other ships, so setting them up to block movement in order to deny actions, prevent decloaking, or traffic jamming a Swarm becomes and extremely valuable tactic. In the meantime, your more elite and dangerous Greens can flank and try to sweep up the messes created by Protos.

However, I feel like the downfall to this list would be having so many low-pilot skill ships. The Protos will be shot at by the lowest chosen options in other rebel lists, such as Blue Squadron B-Wing, Rookie X's, and Bandit Z's. Although a skilled pilot will be able to outmaneuver an opponent with an A-Wing dial, this requires the player to be aware of the thin margin for error in the planning and activation phase. Then, that player will also have to worry about surviving volleys from enemy ships before the Potos even get their shot back.

Is it worth it? Forsaking the PS bid for more ships on the table, to me, sounds like a high-risk, high-reward. However, the odds are against you: At 100 points, you'll be losing the initiative to a 7-TIE Howlrunner Swarm, Han's Bandit-fodder will be shooting at you before you shoot them, and the amount of firepower Rookies and Blues have against an A-Wing will shred Protos without giving them a chance. I don't think so.

2. The next list is one ship short of the previous list, but it offers 5 PS3, PtL A-Wings. The list has much less bite, but when every ship has PtL their mobility, survivability and lethality are greatly increased. Being able to double-action each turn and having 8 green maneuvers make you extremely unpredictable. Arc dodging and evading, focusing and TL'ing, boosting and TL'ing for later, the possibilities are insane. Also, you wont be losing out On shots against the chaff and backbones of other lists when you have 5 PS3 ships. It's like having 5 wasps to dart around the table to sting your opponents.

But I feel that it is the stinging that is the downfall of the list. With only 10 red dice across the board, you'll have to focus down targets or manipulate the force around your opponents' green dice for you to actually kill something. Not to mention, bringing down a B-Wing, let alone a Fat Han or Decimator, is a colossal task for 5 A-Wings. My fear is that losing an A-Wing while flying this list isn't too bad, but once you're down to 6 red dice, your efforts are pretty much fruitless at bringing down any other ship with 2+ agility.

Of course, with proper flying and spacial awareness, you are likely to be in range one a lot of the time to saturate your red dice, but that is terribly risky and foolish to bank your entire strategy on those kind of shenanigans. Your margin of error is slightly larger than the previous list because of PS and PtL, but it comes at the cost of firepower and body count.

3. I know I was complaining about the lack of firepower the last list brings to the table, and you're probably thinking "how could this be any better?", but hear me out. Cutting a PtL-GSP from the previous squadron in order to equip the rest of the team with Predator and Autothrusters brings a whole new game to the table. You now have 4 PS3, double EPT ships equipped with Autothrusters. Now, I don't know the MathWing behind it all, but having 4 hyper-mobile, double actioning ships with passive abilities from Predator and Autothrusters make them more efficient, lethal and survivable than they could ever be.

Having Predator on you is like having a mini-TL or built-in Howlrunner effect on each of your ships. This does two things for your A's: Makes your offensive capabilities more consistent and improves your action economy since you won't have to TL to reroll, saving your focus tokens for defense or allowing you to capitalize on them in an attack. Autothrusters improves your survivability against turreted buffoons or range 3 pot shots, also making your action economy more consistent. It gives the ship a pseudo-evade action built in against turrets, which will no doubt still be popular when wave 6 drops.

Now that your A's are even more lethal and harder to kill, I must ask, is there enough firepower? My answer is still 'no', however, the trade-off in comparison to the prior lists brings me to favor this one. Even at 8 dice, having four, nearly unkillable ships with built-in Howlrunner effects and PtL is a force to be reckoned with.

The con every list suffers is running a full 100 point list and overall low PS, forfeiting initiative. But whether or not that is a bad thing is up to the player and their strategy to decide. I'm not entirely sure if 4 Elite Green Squadron Pilots is where it's at for the upcoming meta, but personally I am confident that these lists are good enough to fight their way into several top 8s in several events.

What do you think?

Edited February 3, 2015 by SpikeSpiegel

[grandmoffjoe 257]

Regarding the last one, PS 3 isn't super common on ships, so you're probably either shooting first or second based purely on pilot skill. So the initiative bid isn't anything to get hung up on. 

 

 

Predator frees you from having to push the limit as often. Sometimes you want to be able to repeatedly make the white turns and get a boost or barrel roll in. 

[Red Winter 381]

I agree with you that each list is good enough in its own right to earn a place at the top tables. My favorite is the bottom list. That definitely has some legs.

[Klutz 1,590]

Have you considered Outmaneuver instead of Predator?

 

Should help against YT-1300's with C3-P0 and Kenkirk.

 

I'd hazard a guess that, supposing you're out of the defender's arc, Outmaneuver outperforms Predator in expected damage output. Real quick:

• Outmaneuver cancels 1 defense die, which is 5/8 (0.625) of an evade if the defender had a focus, 3/8 (0.375) of an evade if he didn't, and 1 if it prevents him from triggering C3-P0
• Predator, on a 2 dice attack, assuming you have a focus, means you'll have, on average, 0.33 extra hits
• Predator, on a 2 dice attack, assuming you don't have a focus, means you'll have, on average, 3/8 extra hits (0.375)

[HoundsTooth 473]

Looking at the third list I'm wondering if Push the Limit and Autothrusters is defensive overkill. If you're looking for more of an attacking option it might be worth looking at a Predator/Outmaneuver/Autothrusters combination. I think that Autothrusters and Outmaneuver might have a nice 'synergy' together when hunting fat Falcons especially. You're getting both an attack and a defence bonus for being out of their firing arc!

Edited February 3, 2015 by HoundsTooth

[Red Winter 381]

The thing that Push the Limit gives, though, is the ability to Boost/TL if out of arc to get the three attack die or Boost/focus for the mid range protection or focus/evade for turtle turns. PtL is a must, imo with the Awing. Outmaneuver and Predator can vie for the next spot. Outmaneuver hits home once you've "outmaneuvered" your opponent, but Predator is always on, so your PtL's can be spent on focus/boost exclusively or turtles that still offer some offensive punch.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Red Winter

[bmf 339]

I've had really good success with:

 

5x Prototype with Chaardan

Jake with VI, LW, ATP, Chaardan

100pts

 

Jake is PS9 so he can hunt phantoms, he can tank really well and is a good endgame ship.

[VanorDM 11,599]

With Calculation being spoiled, I think it's a good card to consider for a 4-5 A-Wing list. I came up with the following idea for one.

3x Green Squadron Pilot w/<3 point EPT>, Calculation, Autothrusters

Jake Farrell w/<3 point EPT>, <3 point EPT>, autothrusters

[HoundsTooth 473]

Do we know yet which ship the Calculation EPT is going to come with. At the moment my entire 'Scum...' spend is amounting to two Star Vipers (for the Autothrusters!). Would be a shame if I had to buy any more than that!

[IvlerIin 573]

It was either the Vipers or M3-A's

[LtRico 113]

Thanks for spending time & effort on promoting A-Wings OP - they sure can use it!
Also props for  the CB reference

 

 

 

Have you considered Outmaneuver instead of Predator?

 

Should help against YT-1300's with C3-P0 and Kenkirk.

 

I'd hazard a guess that, supposing you're out of the defender's arc, Outmaneuver outperforms Predator in expected damage output. Real quick:

• Outmaneuver cancels 1 defense die, which is 5/8 (0.625) of an evade if the defender had a focus, 3/8 (0.375) of an evade if he didn't, and 1 if it prevents him from triggering C3-P0
• Predator, on a 2 dice attack, assuming you have a focus, means you'll have, on average, 0.33 extra hits
• Predator, on a 2 dice attack, assuming you don't have a focus, means you'll have, on average, 3/8 extra hits (0.375)

 

I personally would probably fly a mix of
(a) 2x GSP PTL + Outmaneuver
(b) 2x GSP PTL + Predator
for reasons of personal card availability mostly.

 

However, would you guys pair them

aa-bb or rather ab-ab

if you fly them in a two-ship formation?

[HoundsTooth 473]

I think with that set up LtRico you'd be looking at using the ships with Outmaneuver as flankers so I'd probably set up a-b-b-a (a being the ships with outmaneuver, b being the ones with Predator).

[LtRico 113]

I think with that set up LtRico you'd be looking at using the ships with Outmaneuver as flankers so I'd probably set up a-b-b-a (a being the ships with outmaneuver, b being the ones with Predator).

Outmaneuver on the outward flanks makes sense naturally - but you wouldn't outright joust with the b-variant in the center now, or would you?

 

Problem is whatever one's clever formation planning, with that low PS you most likely commit your entire force on the table before your opponent does...

[shakaumruk 19]

i want try this list:

 

100 points

 

PILOTS

Gemmer Sojan (20)
A-Wing (22), A-Wing Test Pilot (0), Chardaan Refit (-2)

Green Squadron Pilot (20) x 2
A-Wing (19), A-Wing Test Pilot (0), Chardaan Refit (-2), Adrenaline Rush (1), Intimidation (2)

Corran Horn (40)
E-Wing (35), R2-D2 (4), Veteran Instincts (1)

 

prefer expose on gemmer , but have not point.

some variation:

100 points

 

 

100 points

 

PILOTS

Green Squadron Pilot (20)
A-Wing (19), A-Wing Test Pilot (0), Chardaan Refit (-2), Veteran Instincts (1), Intimidation (2)

Green Squadron Pilot (19)
A-Wing (19), A-Wing Test Pilot (0), Chardaan Refit (-2), Intimidation (2)

Wedge Antilles (34)
X-Wing (29), R2-D2 (4), Veteran Instincts (1)

Gemmer Sojan (27)
A-Wing (22), A-Wing Test Pilot (0), Chardaan Refit (-2), Experimental Interface (3), Expose (4)

 

 

100 points

 

PILOTS

Green Squadron Pilot (20)
A-Wing (19), A-Wing Test Pilot (0), Chardaan Refit (-2), Veteran Instincts (1), Intimidation (2)

Green Squadron Pilot (20)
A-Wing (19), A-Wing Test Pilot (0), Chardaan Refit (-2), Intimidation (2), Veteran Instincts (1)

Gemmer Sojan (27)
A-Wing (22), A-Wing Test Pilot (0), Chardaan Refit (-2), Stealth Device (3), Expose (4)

Tycho Celchu (33)
A-Wing (26), A-Wing Test Pilot (0), Proton Rockets (3), Push the Limit (3), Veteran Instincts (1)

Edited February 4, 2015 by shakaumruk

[HoundsTooth 473]

The second Green Squadron Pilot has two Adrenaline Rush EPT's. A-Wing test pilot says you cannot use the same upgrade twice.

Edited February 4, 2015 by HoundsTooth

[shakaumruk 19]

i know, dont look when i make it.. edited the list

[WWHSD 9,273]

Do we know yet which ship the Calculation EPT is going to come with. At the moment my entire 'Scum...' spend is amounting to two Star Vipers (for the Autothrusters!). Would be a shame if I had to buy any more than that!

 

 

One copy of Calculation comes with the Starviper. I don't think that they've shown it in any of the other spreads. 

[Khyros 4,218]

What about this:

 

Prototype w/ Chaardan Refit

Prototype w/ Chaardan Refit

Prototype w/ Chaardan Refit

Prototype w/ Chaardan Refit

Prototype w/ Chaardan Refit

Bandit

Bandit

99pts

 

7 ship swarm, but 5 of the ships are better than the TIE fighters that typically make up swarms.  I would think trading 2 Greens w/ PTL for 2 Bandits and a Prototype is probably a good trade.  

[Klutz 1,590]

i want try this list:

 

[...]

 

List 1:

You really want FCS on Corran.

Adrenaline Rush is mostly useless on A-Wings. You really shouldn't need to k-turn with their dial.

Also, I think I prefer Intimidation on high PS ships, since you move after and can go in for the block.

 

List 2:

I don't like Expose on an A-Wing. Or in general at that.

And you might want to try and fit EU on Wedge to allow some re-positioning and make the PS bid worth it.

 

List 3:

Expose and Stealth Device are an awful combo. You want your Stealth Device to last as long as possible, and Expose makes you easier to hit in 2 ways: you lose 1 agility and you don't have an evade/focus for defense. Use PTL instead of Expose.

[AlexW 2,902]

I agree with you that each list is good enough in its own right to earn a place at the top tables. My favorite is the bottom list. That definitely has some legs.

 

I really, really like that list, but I think its actually the least competitive of the bunch.  In my experience, the strength of the A-Wing is it's cheap cost when combined with its high resiliency.  It suffers from two attack dice, but that's mitigated by having more ships.  4 expensive greens go against both those strengths.  That list (or three with a named A-Wing) could have already made an appearance without the autothrusters, but it hasn't, and I think there's a reason for that and I don't know that autothrusters makes enough of a difference there.  It would be great if it does, though.

 

The thing that Push the Limit gives, though, is the ability to Boost/TL if out of arc to get the three attack die or Boost/focus for the mid range protection or focus/evade for turtle turns. PtL is a must, imo with the Awing. Outmaneuver and Predator can vie for the next spot. Outmaneuver hits home once you've "outmaneuvered" your opponent, but Predator is always on, so your PtL's can be spent on focus/boost exclusively or turtles that still offer some offensive punch.

 

Not to pick another point with you, but PTL is not a must on an A-wing.  I think the two winning store championship lists that ran them ran prototypes and Greens with Predator.  I've done well with a list that has a green with outmaneuver and prototypes.   PTL is very good, but other ETPs allow for a more maneuverable, less predictable  A-wing (since its full dial is open) and defense against getting blocked.

  

 

 

Have you considered Outmaneuver instead of Predator?

 

Should help against YT-1300's with C3-P0 and Kenkirk.

 

I'd hazard a guess that, supposing you're out of the defender's arc, Outmaneuver outperforms Predator in expected damage output. Real quick:

• Outmaneuver cancels 1 defense die, which is 5/8 (0.625) of an evade if the defender had a focus, 3/8 (0.375) of an evade if he didn't, and 1 if it prevents him from triggering C3-P0
• Predator, on a 2 dice attack, assuming you have a focus, means you'll have, on average, 0.33 extra hits
• Predator, on a 2 dice attack, assuming you don't have a focus, means you'll have, on average, 3/8 extra hits (0.375)

 

 

I think mixing the two is a good idea.  In the list I run, I run just the one with outmaneuver, but that's largely because of the meta and the overall plan with that ship in particular.

 

---

 

I've got one that I run and another archtype I'd like to try out when scum hits:

 

I've run 3xprototypes,  a green with a 3pt upgrade, and another 35 point ship (currently Luke with VI, EU, and R3-A2 but could be Wes, Wedge, Keyan, etc..)

 

I'd like to try 55 points for various combinations of two named A-Wings (with autothrusters) and 3 prototypes.

Edited February 5, 2015 by AlexW

[shakaumruk 19]

i want try this list:

[...]

List 1:

You really want FCS on Corran.

Adrenaline Rush is mostly useless on A-Wings. You really shouldn't need to k-turn with their dial.

Also, I think I prefer Intimidation on high PS ships, since you move after and can go in for the block.

List 2:

I don't like Expose on an A-Wing. Or in general at that.

And you might want to try and fit EU on Wedge to allow some re-positioning and make the PS bid worth it.

List 3:

Expose and Stealth Device are an awful combo. You want your Stealth Device to last as long as possible, and Expose makes you easier to hit in 2 ways: you lose 1 agility and you don't have an evade/focus for defense. Use PTL instead of Expose.

1: i put veteran istint on adrenaline. I prefer have not lower but not highter on PS ship. The manovre dial is same time. Prefer make action instead not.and if active before ship can make boost.

2: expose on gemmer for me is good. Hugh prob to stay a 1 distance and roll 4 die, and 3 to defend.

3) put experimental interference instead stealth device.but push also is good.

The problem with a wing is lo ATK die. Intimidation help in this way for me

This is only an idea. Try to have hight ATK dice and low defence die

This:

X-WING: · Wedge Antilles (29)

Veteran Instincts (1)

· R2-D2 (4)

Engine Upgrade (4)

A-WING: · Arvel Crynyd (23)

Chardaan Refit (-2)

A-Wing Test Pilot (0)

Intimidation (2)

A-WING: · Gemmer Sojan (22)

Chardaan Refit (-2)

A-Wing Test Pilot (0)

Predator (3)

A-WING: Prototype Pilot (17)

Chardaan Refit (-2)

Edited February 4, 2015 by shakaumruk

[ObiWonka 7,040]

I'd like to try 65 points for various combinations of two named A-Wings (with autothrusters) and 3 prototypes.

How often do you play 110-point games?

[AlexW 2,902]

 

I'd like to try 65 points for various combinations of two named A-Wings (with autothrusters) and 3 prototypes.

How often do you play 110-point games?

 

 

Excellent question.  Poor math on my part.  I should have said "55 points"