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janenglund

Bloodbowl Team Manager: Team Comparative Analysis - Norse

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Norse

 

Norse teams have a well deserved reputation for ferocity both on and off the playing pitch. The Norse that takes up Blood Bowl is a truly unedifying specimen, interested only in beer, women and song off the playing pitch, and beer, women and bloody carnage while on it!

 

I have seen some interesting fan creations in these forums, I have the graphics to the amazon team and I will try it out shortly. So I decided to design a team of my own, and I need your feedback. I will try to study the Team Comparative Analyses post below and try to put the team stats to that formula to balance it out with the other teams. Any help would be appreciated.

 

The team:

 

# of players - Position - Standing Star Power / Downed Star Power - Skills - Card Abilities - Downed Skills 

( ... = no skills or abilities of that type)

 

4 - Norse Lineman - 1 / 0 - [Tackling] - Guard - ...

 

2 - Norse Thrower - 2 / 0 - [Passing] - Dump-Off - [Fouling]

 

2 - Norse Runner - 2 / 1 - [Passing] / [sprinting] - Nerves of Steel - ...

 

2 - Norse Berzerker - 3 / 1 - [Tackling] - Mighty Blow* - ...

 

1 - Norse Werewolf - 3 / 1 - [Tackling] - Frenzy - [Fouling]

 

1 - Yeti - 4 / 2 - [Tackling] - Claws* - [Tackling]

 

 

* Mighty Blow = If this player successfully tackles an opposing player, he gains [Cheating].

 

* Claws = During a tackle attempt against an opposing player, you may reroll all tackle dice once.

 

These men from the north are barbarians, vikings, they are violent. They do not care for the armor, they just smash. In fact, they only have couple of people taking care of the ball, others just smash the opponents. That is what I wanted this team to be about.

 

Depending of the power level of the team I originally considered to have:

 

1 - Norse Thrower

2 - Norse Werewolf

 

That would be in par with the power level of Orc and Undead teams, but I am not sure how powerful [Tackling] is with all the linemen... I will need your opinions and a bit of playtesting before I finalize the print-and-play graphics for this team.

 

I am also working to design the team upgrades, they will also depend on the current power level of the team. But what I understood, no teams have any killer team upgrades, I just gotta go with the power level of the current team abilities and find some Norse-like ones.

 

 

PS. I gotta decide the lineup of the team (1 or 2 Werewolves) to analyse the team with the formula provided in the original Team Comparative Analyses post.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I like the idea of thinking up some of the remaining teams for adaption.  It makes for an interesting exercise.  Here's my take on what you've done so far:

 

I have to say that Linemen with Block and Guard seems over the top.  I realize its an homage to the mini game, but for the sake of balance, something would have to give.  I would actually remove Guard from the Linemen to both balance them (they're still better than other Linemen, mind you, and may need some additional restriction) and to keep something of the theme of their mini counterparts.  My version would look like this:

 

4 - Lineman - 1/0 [Tackling] 

(((<<possible balance trait addition>>  "When Norse Linemen are successfully tackled, they become Injured.)))

 

Keeping up the theme of the minis, I think the Thrower also should have Block.  With that in mind, we can get a little crazy and add a Response to the team.  This is probably too much, but I like the idea.

 

2 - Thrower - 2/0 [Tackling][Passing] - Response: When Thrower successfully tackles an opposing player, he gains [Passing].

 

I don't feel like the Runners are really in line with the mini game.  I'd give them Dauntless rather than any Nerves of Steel and move it away from Pass.  The Norse all have Block in the mini game, and this guy should, too.  However, as a balance issue and to be thematic to their low AV, I'd lower his downed Star Power to 0.  My version would look like this:

2 - Runner - 2/0 - [Tackling][sprint] - Dauntless, Fend

 

The Berserker is an interesting conundrum.  This guy would fit into the slot of the usual 3-cost Tackler, but all of the Norse have Tackle, so how do you differentiate him.  The mini game version has Frenzy (makes sense) and Jump Up, so I'm thinking we have a Downed Skill for them.

 

2 - Berserker - 3/0 - [Tackling][Cheating] - Frenzy {Regeneration}{Regeneration}

 

If the Berserker is a conundrum, then the Werewolf is an enigma.  In the mini game, he doesn't have Block, but you can Block without it in the mini game.  You can't in BB:TM.  So, you want to give him Block, but you also want to differentiate him from the Berserker.  I am trying to think of something that would play to the Werewolf reverting to human when knocked out.  How would something like this work:

 

1 - Werewolf - 3/2 [Tackling][Fouling] - Frenzy, Shapeshifting (When Werewolf is successfully tackled reveal the top cards of your deck until your reveal a player with a cost of 2 or less and put them into play Downed and give them a Cheating token)

 

Finally, we have the Snow Troll.  I am thinking of this guy along the lines of the Chaos Dwarf Minotaur.  No Frenzy, since its already on two guys on the team.  Loner is also on him in the mini game, so we can use that for the boost.  The Claw idea is a good one, so we can keep that, but since he is almost identical to the Minotaur but has a reroll, we should lower his Downed Star Power, which also fits the theme of the team.

 

1 - Snow Troll (Yeti) - 4/1 [Tackling]- Loner, Claws {Cheating}

 

That is a little different take on your good ideas.  Curious to see what you think.

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I like your ideas.

 

I worked on the roster and currently nordic men have downed Star Power 0. Like in your suggestion.

 

I also tried to get the feel from the miniature game more to the roster. I investigated  a bit what the expert Norse coaches write about the team and:

 

There are a lot of Norse coaches who don’t think the Throwers are worth having on their team and are happy enough to not play with any.

 

So I dropped the Throwers as all teams in BB:TM have 4 + 2 + 2 + 2 or 4 + 2 + 3 + 1 positionals anyway.

 

My current roster is:

 

4 - Norse Lineman - 1 / 0 - … - Guard - {Tackling}

 

2 - Norse Runner - 2 / 0 - [Passing] / [sprinting] - … - {Tackling}

 

3 - Norse Berzerker - 3 / 0 - [Tackling] - Dauntless - {Cheating}

 

2 - Norse Werewolf - 3 / 1 - [Tackling] - Frenzy - {Fouling}

 

1 - Yeti - 4 / 1 - [Tackling] - Claws* - {Cheating}{Fouling}

 

The new thing is that ALL THE PLAYERS have [Tackling] skill. Runners and Linemen have it as downed ability, because they are the ones who do not concentrate on hitting as they have 6 players who can do it better. So there is 25% change of Runners and Linemen to succeed with 0 Star Power tackle and 31% change that they get injured themselves. But sometimes against a troll you might try... You do not lose any Star Power.

 

Runners dictate how your team will look to play on offence with the ball.

 

In the miniature game Runners/Catchers are the main ball carriers as all the other guys are doing the hitting. They have the Dauntless skill, yes, but it is not their best asset:

Dauntless can also be somewhat useless against a lot of teams and they can also end up hogging most of your touchdowns when you want to develop your Berserkers and Werewolves.

...

Norse Runners are in fact better equipped for this role as well as they start with both Block and Dauntless, though the latter is more a bonus that an essential skill.

 

In my build Runners do what they do best: run [sprinting] with the ball [Passing].

 

Berzerkers loan a little bit from the miniature game runners. They have the Dauntless skill, as they are good hitters, but not to make them too good, they ONLY have dauntless. You can't actually compare the skills in the card game and in the miniature game, because same skill (ie. Frenzy) act in a different way.

 

Yeti and Werewolves hit hard, and they hit 'em when they are down, as they are über aggressive animals, that is Fouling in the miniature game...

 

Bronn, thank you for your good suggestions!

 

PS. How to upload pictures to the forums? I can't figure out how to use My Media -section...

So here are the graphics so far.

I manage only to insert the links:

http://infinity.net76.net/Lineman.jpg

http://infinity.net76.net/Runner.jpg

http://infinity.net76.net/Berzerker.jpg

http://infinity.net76.net/Werewolf.jpg

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I also liked your Regeneration idea, it works like jump up, but as the other teams are not that directly ported also... And as mentioned above, Jump Up is not an essential skill for Berzerkers.

 

Now I am comparing this team to Orcs and I feel like the are in the same power level:

 

Linemen: Norse (small) +

Runners/Throwers: =

Berzerkers/Blitzers: Orcs (big) +

Werewolves/Blockers: Norse (tiny) +

Yeti/Troll: =

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The main issue I have with your update is that all the team does is Tackle and little else, which I was trying to avoid with secondary skills that I added.  

 

I do not like the removal of Thrower, as I think it adds an essential skill in Passing to the team.  As it stands, they have zero way to actually get or knock away the ball.  If anything, I would consider removing the Werewolf and make it an Team Upgrade card that benefits your smaller players (Shapeshifter - Response: Before your player with 2 or less Star Power Tackles a player, it shapeshifts into a werewolf.  Your player rolls two dice for the Tackle, regardless of Star Power, and assigns both results.).

 

I still think the Linemen are too good with Guard, even with Tackle as a Downed Skill (which they will always have access to thanks to Guard).  The idea of making it a Downed skill is intriguing though.  How to balance it against the Linemen of other teams is the issue, as they are clearly better. 

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The main issue I have with your update is that all the team does is Tackle and little else, which I was trying to avoid with secondary skills that I added.  

 

I do not like the removal of Thrower, as I think it adds an essential skill in Passing to the team.  As it stands, they have zero way to actually get or knock away the ball. 

 

I still think the Linemen are too good with Guard, even with Tackle as a Downed Skill (which they will always have access to thanks to Guard).  The idea of making it a Downed skill is intriguing though.  How to balance it against the Linemen of other teams is the issue, as they are clearly better. 

 

Ok, I heard you. The thrower is back. There was no good reason to remove it, only that the original 6 teams in Blood Bowl: Team Manager all had only 4 positionals. But Chaos Dwarves for example have 5 and now the Norse also... Actually the 3 Berzerker build would not be legal in the miniature game, as I am trying to get the feel of the team from there.

 

Here is the roster, now some more options:

 

Standing Skills:

5 Tackling

3 Passing (2 optional)

2 Sprinting (2 optional)

1 Fouling 

 

Downed Skills:

5 Cheating

4 Tackling

2 Regeneration

 

Compared to other teams, they have decent variety of options. And Intercept ability bring a good option to get the ball, as it bring more Passing to the team.

 

4 - Norse Lineman - 1 / 0 - ... - Guard - [Tackling]

 

1 - Norse Thrower - 2 / 0 - [Passing] - Dump-Off - [Cheating]

 

2 - Norse Runner - 2 / 0 - [sprinting] / [Passing] - Intercept* - [Cheating]

 

2 - Norse Berzerker - 3 / 0 - [Tackling] - Dauntless - [Cheating]

 

2 - Norse Werewolf - 3 / 1 - [Tackling] - Frenzy - [Regeneration]

 

1 - Snow Troll - 4 / 2 - [Tackling] [Fouling] - Claws* - ...

 

 

* Intercept - When an opposing player drops the ball, gain [Passing].

 

* Claws - Each time you roll ⭐⭐ during this player's tackle attempt, this player may attempt another tackle against the same opposing player.

 

I definitely think that the linemen are not too good. They have 25% change to succeed in their 0 Star Power tackle attempt and 31% change of injuring themselves. So 4 linemen means 1 successful tackle. And comparing the team to other bashy teams this is not a decisive difference and the them is not super strong compared to the Undead or Chaos Dwarves for example.

 

The skeletons are better than Norse Linemen, as they have 31% change of regenerating, thus giving +1 Star Power for sure and an extra change to protect a Ghoul, for example, who has 3/0 Star Power.

 

Here are the graphics now:

http://infinity.net76.net/Lineman.jpg

http://infinity.net76.net/Thrower.jpg

http://infinity.net76.net/Runner.jpg

http://infinity.net76.net/Berzerker.jpg

http://infinity.net76.net/Werewolf.jpg

http://infinity.net76.net/SnowTroll.jpg

 

PS. Still waiting for instructions to use this My Media thing...

Edited by JanE

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A bit more explanation of my ideas. I tried to simulate the feel of the Blood Bowl miniature game Norse team.

 

The Norse Team

The team is bashy and most of the players have block skills in the miniature game. Now the teams has 5 players with Tackling skill and 4 players with downed Tackling skill.

 

All humans in the Norse team have low armor in miniature game 7 and in this BB:TM version downed Star Power of 0.

To simulate their fierceness and aggression, they try to prevent going down with every legal and illegal manner they can, thus the Cheating downed skill to every to positionals (expect lineman). The Norse live in the same region as Chaos, so their are related to their neighbors with the Cheating skill, but they cheat heavily only when attacked. 

 

Linemen

To make them bashy (as the block skill in miniature game) they have the extra Tackling as downed skill.

 

Throwers

Quite a normal thrower, only lower armor as the other teams (thus downed Star Power of 0).

 

Runners

The fastest player in the team (Sprinting) and the most likely ball carrier and scorer (Passing). As they are the ones who seek openings in the enemy lines to charge forward, they are most likely to be there first when the opposing team fumbles the ball, thus the Intercept ability.

 

Berzerkers

Because the more simpler distribution of skills and abilities in this card game, Berzerkers are related to the miniature game Berzerkers (they are hitters) and Runners (they have Dauntless skill). As the games and abilities are not 1:1 comparable, the Dauntless ability (as the Norse have it in the miniature game) and Tackling skill give a good Norse fitted stats to Berzerkers.

 

Werewolves

They are stronger and they have Frenzy (= multiple tackles in the miniature game) so they have Frenzy here as that gives them the extra strength compared to other players. They also have Regeneration as the Norse Werewolves in Warhammer universe have the skill, just not in Blood Bowl miniature game for some reason.

 

Snow Troll

I researched a bit of the Norse lore in Warhammer and did not find any Yetis, Yhetees or anything, but they had Snow Trolls in their armies. So Snow Troll it is. He has the same stats as the most big guys, but he really has no idea of the Blood Bowl rules, so he hits everything downed or not, which is against the rules, thus Fouling. And the Frenzy and Claws in the miniature game come together in the current Claws skill, as Claws in the miniature game is pierce armor = easily injured and Frenzy brings multiple blocks (tackles). With this Claws skill you have opportunity to do multiple tackles and injure a player.

 

Now I am starting the final playtests to balance the team and try out these Team Upgrades:

 

Extra-Special Magic Ale

Response: After 1 of your players becomes injured, exhaust this card to return the Player card to your hand. During the Matchup Phase, if you have 1 card remaining in your hand at the start of your turn, discard it.

 

Team Anthem

Response: When you commit your first player to a matchup, exhaust this card to allow the player use any one skill: [Cheating], [sprinting], [Passing], [Tackling] or [Fouling].

 

The Wall

Response: When 1 of your ball carriers is targeted during a tackle attempt, exhaust this card. Regardless of the difference in Star Power, the opposing manager rolls 2 dice and you choose one result to apply.

 

Come on Boys!

Response: During a tackle attempt at a matchup where you have more downed players than your opponent, exhaust this card to reroll all dice once.

 

Surprise Blitz

Response: Exhaust this card after 1 of your players becomes the ball carrier. The player gains [Tackling].

 

Norse Supremacy

Scoreboard Phase: For each matchup where you have more standing players than your opponent, gain [Fan].

 

These upgrages have thematically a bit of beer, song and bloody carnage...

Edited by JanE

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