Ysanne and Damaged Sensor Array crit

[Russells teapot 84]

So a clarification on firing arcs (which I agree can be extrapolated between pilot skills) is the same in your eyes as ignoring a key word on a damage deck card?

If that's your idea of reasonable extrapolation and an example of raw, then you're right, we won't agree.

I'll leave this now, I've made the points I wanted to make as well as I could, and we're going in circles. It's been an interesting brain bender this one, thanks.

[Buhallin 4,563]

So a clarification on firing arcs (which I agree can be extrapolated between pilot skills) is the same in your eyes as ignoring a key word on a damage deck card?

 

Well, isn't that exactly what we're discussing here?  Whether a particular entry with a specific reference can apply to something else?  You seem OK with the idea where pilot entries are concerned.

 

So then the question is whether the "ACTION:" mention on the DSA entry is a binding element of the rule, or whether it's merely an example.  The problem is that nowhere else in X-wing - at all - does the source of an action matter.  So is it a binding part of the rule that creates a truly unique (and weird) corner case for this one card?  Or is it just part of an example?

 

It's not a matter of ignoring the key word, per se - it's a matter of understanding its relevance.  Just like when Backstabber's entry says Backstabber, you understand that the rule may apply to something other than Backstabber.

[barriecritzer 479]

here is my argument a decimator does not have evade as an action, it is the card that is giving you the action not your upgrade bar, just like your normal upgrade bar does not let you cloak after attacking it is ACD that doe that. I would say you could still use ACD but not cloak normally

[Amraam01 154]

Damage Sensor Array says that you cannot perform the actions LISTED in your action bar. It does not care what the source of the action is. It does not say that you cannot use your action bar. The key word here is "listed". The only exception is cards with "ACTION:" at the beginning of their text.

The 1st and 3rd paragraphs explaining Damaged Sensor Array both explicitly state that you may only perform actions or free actions from cards that have the ACTION header. Advance Cloaking Device gives you a free action after shooting, but does not have the ACTION header.

Damaged Sensor Array on a Phantom does not allow you to perform Focus, Evade, Cloak, or Barrel Roll as an action (or free action). You can however use an upgrade card that has the bolded ACTION word at the top of the card(or try and fix the crit).

Since the Firespray would have Evade on the list of actions not allowed, then Ysanne would fail to work.

Since the Decimators only illegal actions would be focus and target lock, then Ysanne would be permitted to work.

The FFG wording and intent on this is clear.

I can see where you are coming... but lets say you think of actions as discrete entities rather than encompassing ideas but the KEY word is 'listed'.  I think the discrete entities make for a simpler resolution.  

 

You can think of it 2 ways but one runs into more problems:  Example: evade action on firespray.   

 

1) Evade can never be performed because 'Evade' encompasses the full idea of evade as a complete process.  However this runs into problems and contradictions with other rules such as performing multiple focus actions- which would be illegal by the 'performing actions' rules as you performed the same action X2.  

 

2) But what if we thought of it as each focus is a discrete named entity- for instance Focus-a (From action bar) Focus -B (from Jan) etc.  An Evade action can be still done as it is now ALSO outside the listed bar with YI upgrade.  So Evade -A entity LISTED from action bar cannot be performed but Evade-B from source B can be performed.  So there we go, think of actions as discrete entities not ideas.  If it comes from your native action bar, you cannot perform THAT specific evade.  But, evade from source B can be.   

Edited January 31, 2015 by Amraam01

[theDestroyer00 14]

   Interesting topic but I am leaning towards Firespray cant but Decimator can. But I can see the other point of view. It is sort of the same as a ywing with R7T1 he doesn't get boost in his action bar same as the decimator.

   No one can guess the intention we have to use the rules only. As for a precedent do you mean the FAQ's we have had.

[FNG tie pilot 123]

EDIT: double post

Edited February 1, 2015 by FNG tie pilot

[FNG tie pilot 123]

Damage Sensor Array says that you cannot perform the actions LISTED in your action bar. It does not care what the source of the action is. It does not say that you cannot use your action bar. The key word here is "listed". The only exception is cards with "ACTION:" at the beginning of their text.

The 1st and 3rd paragraphs explaining Damaged Sensor Array both explicitly state that you may only perform actions or free actions from cards that have the ACTION header. Advance Cloaking Device gives you a free action after shooting, but does not have the ACTION header.

Damaged Sensor Array on a Phantom does not allow you to perform Focus, Evade, Cloak, or Barrel Roll as an action (or free action). You can however use an upgrade card that has the bolded ACTION word at the top of the card(or try and fix the crit).

Since the Firespray would have Evade on the list of actions not allowed, then Ysanne would fail to work.

Since the Decimators only illegal actions would be focus and target lock, then Ysanne would be permitted to work.

The FFG wording and intent on this is clear.

I can see where you are coming... but lets say you think of actions as discrete entities rather than encompassing ideas but the KEY word is 'listed'.  I think the discrete entities make for a simpler resolution.  

 

You can think of it 2 ways but one runs into more problems:  Example: evade action on firespray.   

 

1) Evade can never be performed because 'Evade' encompasses the full idea of evade as a complete process.  However this runs into problems and contradictions with other rules such as performing multiple focus actions- which would be illegal by the 'performing actions' rules as you performed the same action X2.  

 

2) But what if we thought of it as each focus is a discrete named entity- for instance Focus-a (From action bar) Focus -B (from Jan) etc.  An Evade action can be still done as it is now ALSO outside the listed bar with YI upgrade.  So Evade -A entity LISTED from action bar cannot be performed but Evade-B from source B can be performed.  So there we go, think of actions as discrete entities not ideas.  If it comes from your native action bar, you cannot perform THAT specific evade.  But, evade from source B can be.

1. You can never perform the same action twice regardless of source. Using the Expert Handling FAQ entry as reference, 1 ship cannot use the Barrel Roll Action and Expert Handling (an alternate source for "Barrel Roll Action" containing the ACTION header) in the same turn. On the same note, a Firespray that takes an Evade action cannot use Ysanne Isard at the beginning of combat since she grants you an "Evade Action". This would break the the rules for performing the same action multiple times.

2. As for your 2nd example, I'm not quite sure where your going with it. You mention "Focus A" from action bar, then "Focus B" from Jan. Jan crew changes a focus token into an evade token when before actually receiving the token, regardless of how you received it. Jan ship stresses out to boost a friendly attack.

Damaged Sensor Array says "you cannot perform actions listed in your action bar".

Group A interprets this as you cannot use your action bar.

Groups B interprets this as a status effect listing actions you cannot take regardless of source, unless there is an equipped ACTION header card that contains effects or abilities causing you to perform an action bar action(Expert Handling).

Action header cards are a legal loophole for this issue. Expert Handling, Marksmanship, Expose, etc., are not listed in in my action bar. When I choose my action for the turn, I choose "Expert Handling" action, "Marksmanship" action, "Expose" action, etc.

Ysanne Isaard as a card is not an action. It permits you to perform an action at a different time. If you are stressed, you try to perform an Evade action, but can't, since you are not allowed to perform actions while stressed. If you have Damaged Sensor Array on a Firespray, you try to perform the Evade action, but can't, because Damaged Sensor Array says you are not allowed to perform the Evade action.