In arc but shooting out of arc.

[WWHSD 9,273]

I'm curious how cards like Autothrusters and Tactician would work in the follow scenario:

 

The Falcon has Tactician and the Interceptor has Autothrusters. The Falcon is attacking the Interceptor. The Interceptor is at range one out of arc but is in arc at range two.   

 

 

 

If the Falcon makes a range one out of arc attack do either Tactician or Autothrusters kick in?

 

Does the Falcon need to declare that it does not want to use it's turret out of arc in order to benefit from Tactician and not trigger Autothrusters?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Relevant card and rules text:

Autothrusters: 

When defending, if you are beyond Range 2 or outside the attacker's firing arc, you may change 1 of your blank results to a [evade] result. You can equip this card only if you have the [boost] action icon.

 

Tactician: 

After you perform an attack against a ship inside your firing arc at Range 2, that ship receives 1 stress token.

 

Regarding Turret Primary Weapons from the FAQ:

When attacking with a turret primary weapon, a ship may target an enemy

ship inside or outside its firing arc. 

Edited January 20, 2015 by WWHSD

[Cptnhalfbeard 680]

IIRC - when determining range and in arc/out of arc, it is all based on the closest-to-closest measurement. So even if part of the ship is in your front arc, but the closest-to-closest line is outside your arc, the the attack is happening outside or arc and you cannot trigger tactician (and the defender would be able to use auto thrusters).

[LordBritish2 1]

I would say that the attack is at Range 1 because you draw lines for determining obstruction from closest point to closest point which would make this a Range 1 shot but I don't have a reference that would completely counter an argument against this interpretation on hand.  I will let someone else find it.

 

Edit: 'd.

Edited January 20, 2015 by LordBritish2

[dvorm 1,058]

That is a range one shot.

[warrior bungalow 23]

Hm... I don't think autothrusters would work though!

[dvorm 1,058]

As a range 1 shot, it is outside the firing arc.

Tactician does not work. Autothrusters do.

 

A secondary weapon (missile) would be inside arc at range 2. The primary is outside arc at range 1.

 

 

 

On a completely unrelated note, the attacker can damage himself with assault missiles in that situation!

 

 

 

 

Edit:

FAQ, last page

Edited January 20, 2015 by dvor

[WWHSD 9,273]

My reading of the turret primary rule would lead me to believe that an attacker can choose to not use the capability to shoot out of arc if they so desire.

Neither Autothrusters nor Tactician seem to have trigger conditions that are depedent on the actual attack being made, only in the relationship between attacker and defender as far as range and arc are concerned.

[Cptnhalfbeard 680]

On a completely unrelated note, the attacker can damage himself with assault missiles in that situation!

Woah, that's crazy - you're right! *mind blown*

[dvorm 1,058]

Here we go:

 

Q: If a ship attacks an enemy ship with a turret weapon and

the defender is also inside its firing arc, can the attacker

choose to measure range using the rules for its firing arc

instead of the rules for a turret weapon?

A:

No. When attacking with a turret weapon (including a 360-degree primary

turret), range is always measured from the closest point to the closest point.

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

Which covers the range question, but not the in/out of arc question.

As I recall, this was a big argument a few months ago that involved several back and forth emails to frank before it was finally clarified (because frank had misread the initial question). Unfortunately, I can't actually remember what he finally said.

[warrior bungalow 23]

Interesting, thanks op for bringing that up I would have played it wrong

[Buhallin 4,563]

 

Here we go:

 

Q: If a ship attacks an enemy ship with a turret weapon and

the defender is also inside its firing arc, can the attacker

choose to measure range using the rules for its firing arc

instead of the rules for a turret weapon?

A:

No. When attacking with a turret weapon (including a 360-degree primary

turret), range is always measured from the closest point to the closest point.

 

This is a different issue than the question at hand.  You can't "turn off" the turret to try and draw a better line.

 

However, I believe the last read we had from Frank on this said that range checks and in-arc checks were independent.  So in this case, it would be a range 1 (measure via turret) and in-arc (because the ship is in the arc) shot.  The actual line used doesn't matter.

 

Going to have to see if I can dig up that thread...

[Buhallin 4,563]

Yeah, here we go:

 

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/121537-turrets-outmaneuver-and-tactician/?p=1255616

 

And because it's a bit confusing, my breakdown here:

 

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/121537-turrets-outmaneuver-and-tactician/?p=1255660

 

So to summarize:

Range checks depend on the range band used for the attack.

In-arc checks depend solely on whether the ship is in the arc, and ignores the range/position.

[dvorm 1,058]

However, I believe the last read we had from Frank on this said that range checks and in-arc checks were independent.  So in this case, it would be a range 1 (measure via turret) and in-arc (because the ship is in the arc) shot.  The actual line used doesn't matter.

Now that you say it, I think I remember the same.

 

 

Going to have to see if I can dig up that thread...

Already searching.

[LordBritish2 1]

So, based on the links that Buhallin posted.  I don't believe that Tactician or Autothrusters would trigger.  For the Tactician, the attack was made at Range 1, which means that you do not meet all of the requirements for Tactician (Range 2 and inside of firing arc (though you do meet the second requirement)).  For the Autothrusters, you fail to meet both requirements.  First, you are inside arc at Range 2 and you are clearly not beyond Range 2 (which would require the entire ship to past the Range 2 distance).  Do other people get the same interpretation?

[Tsiegtiez 1,608]

So, based on the links that Buhallin posted.  I don't believe that Tactician or Autothrusters would trigger.  For the Tactician, the attack was made at Range 1, which means that you do not meet all of the requirements for Tactician (Range 2 and inside of firing arc (though you do meet the second requirement)).  For the Autothrusters, you fail to meet both requirements.  First, you are inside arc at Range 2 and you are clearly not beyond Range 2 (which would require the entire ship to past the Range 2 distance).  Do other people get the same interpretation?

No, because when the Falcon has measured for the actual attack, the shortest point-to-point line is outside the firing arc and at Range 1. That's the line used for the attack, and therefore the line used for defense; Autothrusters will trigger because the attack is happening outside of the primary arc of the Falcon. Any other space occupied by the defending ship is irrelevant to the attack, so why would defense count anything else?

[WWHSD 9,273]

 

So, based on the links that Buhallin posted.  I don't believe that Tactician or Autothrusters would trigger.  For the Tactician, the attack was made at Range 1, which means that you do not meet all of the requirements for Tactician (Range 2 and inside of firing arc (though you do meet the second requirement)).  For the Autothrusters, you fail to meet both requirements.  First, you are inside arc at Range 2 and you are clearly not beyond Range 2 (which would require the entire ship to past the Range 2 distance).  Do other people get the same interpretation?

No, because when the Falcon has measured for the actual attack, the shortest point-to-point line is outside the firing arc and at Range 1. That's the line used for the attack, and therefore the line used for defense; Autothrusters will trigger because the attack is happening outside of the primary arc of the Falcon. Any other space occupied by the defending ship is irrelevant to the attack, so why would defense count anything else?

 

 

The Autothrusters card only refers to whether or not the defender is in the attacker's firing arc. It doesn't seem to require that the being defended against attack uses that arc. The language on Tactician is a little less clear.

[Tsiegtiez 1,608]

 

The Autothrusters card only refers to whether or not the defender is in the attacker's firing arc. It doesn't seem to require that the being defended against attack uses that arc. The language on Tactician is a little less clear.

Ah, I see your point. Yeah I can see how that might be confusing. As far as my interpretation, the Autothrusters card starts with "When defending," so it seems to me you wouldn't then take another measurement; whatever the attacker was using is the pertinent Range or In/Out of Arc label.

[Buhallin 4,563]

 

 

The Autothrusters card only refers to whether or not the defender is in the attacker's firing arc. It doesn't seem to require that the being defended against attack uses that arc. The language on Tactician is a little less clear.

Ah, I see your point. Yeah I can see how that might be confusing. As far as my interpretation, the Autothrusters card starts with "When defending," so it seems to me you wouldn't then take another measurement; whatever the attacker was using is the pertinent Range or In/Out of Arc label.

 

It's not a matter of taking another measurement.  The target is either in the arc, or it isn't.  The "line of attack" used is irrelevant for determining the arc.  "When defending" doesn't matter either, as it's just a timing constraint.

 

And Tactician was less clear, which is why people asked Frank, and why we have the response that we do  But it's clear now, too.

 

Looking at the OP's image, the attack is at range 1, and the target is in arc.  So:

 

YT-1300 with Tactician: Does not meet both requirements, does not trigger.

Interceptor with Autothrusters: Does not meet either requirement, does not trigger.

[Tsiegtiez 1,608]

YT-1300 with Tactician: Does not meet both requirements, does not trigger.

Interceptor with Autothrusters: Does not meet either requirement, does not trigger.

I see now, I get it. Thank you. The target being in or out of arc is a state independent of measuring Attack Range, and you verify it as needed for certain upgrades.

The part that had me stuck was in Frank's final email in the other thread you linked, where he says Outmaneuver can work if the target is inside your arc, even if you aren't attacking them inside your arc. I had that backwards to Autothrusters, thinking they had been attacked out-of-arc and that's sufficient for the thrusters to fire. The entirety of the ship has to be out-of-arc for them to trigger then, and you're fulfilling a yes/no question based on the printed firing arc alone, not any part of the actual attack.

That seems...oddly straightforward.