IG-2000 Title - Does it work when you've lost a ship?

[WWHSD 9,273]

Does the friendly ship still need to be in play for the pilot ability to be shared? I believe that this is the first card of its sort so isn't something that has really had to be dealt with previously. All of the other cards that depend in friendly ships either have a range limitation, require that ship to perform an action, or grant some sort of benefit to the friendly ship.   

 

 

 

[DailyRich 3,346]

If the ship doesn't exist, the ability doesn't exist, so I'd say the ship would have to still be in play.

[dvorm 1,058]

Does the friendly ship still need to be in play for the pilot ability to be shared?

I think so. If a ship is no longer in play, it no longer has a pilot ability.

 

Although, technically, only one thing that happens when a ship is destroyed: It is removed from the play area. Nothing happens to the ship card. One might argue that the card is in play even after destruction.

[Buhallin 4,563]

Oh, come on people...

 

[WWHSD 9,273]

I don't think I've seen anything that defines a "friendly ship" as a ship that is currently in play. A destroyed ship would still be a friendly ship. 

 

I can see valid arguments for either interpretation for the effect of this title but I think that the only one that I can find support for in the rules is the one that allows the pilot ability to be shared even after a ship is destroyed. That makes the title much more powerful. If there isn't anything in the rules that I am missing I'd like to get clarification from FFG before the IG-2000 hits the shelves. Asking the question now increases the chance that something can make it into the Wave 6 FAQ update.

[dvorm 1,058]

A destroyed ship would still be a friendly ship. 

I'm not sure about that. Is a destroyed ship still a ship?

[VanorDM 11,599]

Is a destroyed ship still a ship?

No, because it has no effect on the game any longer. It's not like in MtG where you have a graveyard in which those cards can be brought back into the game again.

A destroyed ship no longer exists as far as the game is concerned.

[Buhallin 4,563]

I don't think I've seen anything that defines a "friendly ship" as a ship that is currently in play. A destroyed ship would still be a friendly ship. 

 

They never define "friendly ship" as a ship that was ever in play at all, actually.  It'll be handy being able to define my entire collection, sitting in my case, as "friendly ships".  IG-88's going to be awesome with all 4 abilities even though I only field one, and not having to add Leia and Rieekan to my list in order to use them will improve them dramatically.

 

I think that's rather patently ridiculous.

 

So, why doesn't IG-2000 pull in the abilities of ships in my bag?  Because they're not in play.  Abilities can only function on/with things that are in play.  Destroyed ships are removed from play.  They're just as not-in-play as a ship which was never in the squad at all.

[WWHSD 9,273]

A destroyed ship no longer exists as far as the game is concerned.

 

I don't see anything that in the rules or FAQ that would back up that statement. The only thing I can find that deals with destroyed ships (other than simultaneous attacks or things specific to the pilot abilities of Fel's Wrath or Corran Horn) simply instructs you on what to do with the model, tokens, and damage cards. 

 

"When the number of Damage cards dealt to a ship

is equal to or greater than its hull value, the

ship is immediately destroyed (faceup and facedown

cards count toward this total). Immediately remove

the destroyed ship from the play area, discard all of

its Damage cards to a faceup discard pile next to

the Damage deck, and return all of its tokens to their

respective supplies."

[WWHSD 9,273]

  Destroyed ships are removed from play.  They're just as not-in-play as a ship which was never in the squad at all.

 

Destroyed ships are removed from the play area. The rules never say that it's the same as never being part of the squad.

Edited January 12, 2015 by WWHSD

[Buhallin 4,563]

 

 Destroyed ships are removed from play.

 

Destroyed ships are removed from the play area.

 

So you're actually going to hang your argument here that being "removed from the play area" is not the same as being "removed from play", and destroyed ships can still influence the game so long as the ability in question doesn't have a range requirement because they're "in play" even though they're not "in the play area"?

 

Let's try this another way, then - where is "in play" defined as anything other than "in the play area"?

Edited January 12, 2015 by Buhallin

[WWHSD 9,273]

 

 

 Destroyed ships are removed from play.

 

Destroyed ships are removed from the play area.

 

So you're actually going to hang your argument here that being "removed from the play area" is not the same as being "removed from play", and destroyed ships can still influence the game so long as the ability in question doesn't have a range requirement because they're "in play" even though they're not "in the play area"?

 

Let's try this another way, then - where is "in play" defined as anything other than "in the play area"?

 

 

It has nothing to do with whether or not the destroyed ship is "in play" or not but whether it still counts as a friendly ship or not for the purposes of this title. Essentially, is this title something that is assessed once at the beginning of a match based on the contents of a list or is it something that is dependent on the state of the ships in question.

 

The current rules and FAQ do not give a clear answer on how this card should be interpreted. The only thing that can be pointed to is a lack of rules which I believe supports the case for the benefits of title applying even if one of the ships are destroyed. In a situation that the interpretation of this card was disputed during a match there is nothing to point to that says that the friendly ship must still be in play. It's going to come down to the decision of a TO or a roll-off. That's not a good situation.

 

I'd love to see something in the rules or FAQ that says it won't work but I can't find it.

[Buhallin 4,563]

Every ability in X-wing acts on the current game state, and that's based on things in the play area.  If it's not in the play area, it can't affect the game.  That's pretty foundational.  Can you come up with any examples, at all, of an ability which is based on something other than the current game state and the ability's defined duration?

[Parravon 5,217]

I wish we had a webcam on Frank Brooks' computer, because if this ever makes it as far as a question to him, the look on his face would be priceless!

[WWHSD 9,273]

Every ability in X-wing acts on the current game state, and that's based on things in the play area.  If it's not in the play area, it can't affect the game.  That's pretty foundational.  Can you come up with any examples, at all, of an ability which is based on something other than the current game state and the ability's defined duration?

 

Like I said in the OP, I don't think there has been a card previous to this that would have been able to work even without further clarification. Everything else requires a friendly ship to be in range, perform an action, or receive (or remove) a token or action. This card requires only that there be a friendly card trigger.

 

There is nothing other than people's opinion to make "in the squad list" any less valid an interpretation than "in the play area" of what constitutes a friendly ship. This is way less ridiculous than the whole "Does Lone Wolf do anything but cost two points and waste an EPT slot?" discussion. I'd put it about on par with "Can Jan Ors effect the ship she's on?".    

[Tuls 215]

Interesting views from both sides. But common sense would agree that if the ship is gone how could you share its ability. Add to that the Title is 0 pts I can't see it keeping ability after friendly being destroyed. 

 

If it was designed to keep ability after being destroyed then it was poorly worded.

 

The question is Do the IG-88's link and share the ability or download the ability. Either way the FAQ will clear it up.

[VanorDM 11,599]

I'd guess they will FAQ it just to be safe.

But I don't see how there is any chance that they would consider a ship that's been removed from play as still counting as a active ship.

[WWHSD 9,273]

I'd guess they will FAQ it just to be safe.

But I don't see how there is any chance that they would consider a ship that's been removed from play as still counting as a active ship.

 

 

I hope they do FAQ it, and that's the main reason that I started this thread. The wording on the card doesn't even have the requirement of it needing to be an active friendly ship. If it did that would be a lot more clear than it currently is. 

[DailyRich 3,346]

God forbid common sense ever enters into it... 

[Osoroshii 2,146]

Along with covering that they will have to cover the Injuried Pilot damage card as well. There is a gray area in these interactions and I would not be so quick to say I know how FFG will rule on these. Does the injured Pilot card take the ability from both IG-88s? does the ship with the damage card retain the other ability from the title?

[Buhallin 4,563]

 

Like I said in the OP, I don't think there has been a card previous to this that would have been able to work even without further clarification. Everything else requires a friendly ship to be in range, perform an action, or receive (or remove) a token or action. This card requires only that there be a friendly card trigger.

 

There is nothing other than people's opinion to make "in the squad list" any less valid an interpretation than "in the play area" of what constitutes a friendly ship. This is way less ridiculous than the whole "Does Lone Wolf do anything but cost two points and waste an EPT slot?" discussion. I'd put it about on par with "Can Jan Ors effect the ship she's on?".    

 

Cool.  I look forward to forcing my opponent into a dice-off over whether the cards in my bag count as friendly ships.  After all, it's only your opinion that a ship I never ever put into play at all shouldn't be considered friendly.

[Parravon 5,217]

With the Injured Pilot, I would say the damaged IG-88 loses his ability and any EPT, but as the IG-2000 is a title, the Injured Pilot card would only strip his ability leaving him able to use others abilities only.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Parravon

[WWHSD 9,273]

Look at the wording on the ST-321 title:

 

"When acquiring a target lock, you may lock onto any enemy ship in the play area."

 

 

If a ship ceases to be either a friendly or enemy ship upon destruction, why did they include "in the play area"?

[Buhallin 4,563]

Along with covering that they will have to cover the Injuried Pilot damage card as well. There is a gray area in these interactions and I would not be so quick to say I know how FFG will rule on these. Does the injured Pilot card take the ability from both IG-88s? does the ship with the damage card retain the other ability from the title?

This is equally easy.  The title gives you the ability of other ships.  Injured Pilot removes the ability, so there's nothing to transfer.

 

There really isn't any gray area here.

[WWHSD 9,273]

I would say the damaged IG-88 loses his ability and any EPT, but as the IG-2000 is a title, the Injured Pilot card would only strip his ability leaving him able to use others abilities only.

 

 

Does the undamaged IG-88 also lose access to his ability?