SoT new TIEs

[kinnison 850]

Wow... I mean.. really?

 

I guess the Empire needed more love.  And you had to go to the video games to do it.

 

The hunter seems rather pointless without a weapons officer or co-pilot

 

I guess i am old school and just want to stick to the movies and books

[Agatheron 657]

The reality is you can stick with the movies and books if you choose, it's your game. It seemed appropriate that a book on Aces needed some more Starfighter options more than any other book in the line

[Ghostofman 8,319]

I too was rather unimpressed.

The Phantom was ok, but has limited utility. But now we know how cloaks work,so its a valid contribution.

The Hunter is understandable, but an odd choice with the defenders stats and presence in the core.

The aggressor? That I don't totally get. I mean I get the purpose it served in its original medium... but I don't get it here.

And the interdictor.. sorry, that's just a waste of page space.The TIE bomber already does pretty much does all that in a more economical package. Why did we need another?

I'm assuming though that there is a good reason for all this. There's lots more sourcebooks to come, so perhaps they are saving the more interesting selections for books the might need the push to help sales.

[Baron Soontir Fel 640]

What would you have preferred? I'm not trying to snark here, though I know it sounds kind of snarky. I'm genuinely curious though, because RPGs are so flexible and can be played in so many different ways.

 

I get being statistically underwhelmed (to a certain degree)--but as Agatheron says you don't have to play these ships if you don't want to. As Imperial (and thus primarily NPC ships, in my campaign at least) they offer thematic variety to the story.

 

My heroes raiding a base guarded by Phantoms or Hunters instead of Squints and Eyeballs will know something is up, regardless of statistical distinction. 

[Ghostofman 8,319]

What would you have preferred? I'm not trying to snark here, though I know it sounds kind of snarky. I'm genuinely curious though, because RPGs are so flexible and can be played in so many different ways.

 

The answer to that is also why I'm kinda thinking what we got was kinda left overs. The rest of the selection  presented made me pretty happy: R-41, Z-95 Hvy, T-wing, Nimbus, All 3 carriers. Even the one's that aren't may favs were well done. The E-wing feels  a little premature, but as someone launching a post-endor campaign I can't complain, and the H-wing, while I think is kinda silly aesthetically, I also think was well statted.

 

The TIE series options by comparison feel a little like the lamer options. The Phantom, as I said earlier, is fine. It's pretty famous, has a function, and the addition of the the cloak rules is good. The Hunter is a little... meh as I kinda think the Defender in the core book already covers that, but it's in Arda so ad I been in charge of the book I probably would have put it in there too.

 

So that leaves the Aggressor and Interdictor. The Aggressor just plain doesn't bring a whole lot to the table, and is pretty obscure. Sorry, but in a game where fighter fire arcs don't matter a whole lot, a TIE with a turret is just a  but unnecessary, and the Interdictor is a heavy bomber that can't perform it's job any better the the TIE Bomber. If the Interdictor were more like the H-wing, and could act more like a strategic bomber, I'd probably go with it, but it can't. No hyperdrive, no stealth systems, nothing but shields and a swollen prostate. It's speed doesn't even work, speed 4 means it can dogfight, not well, but it can. Add in that both craft really only appeared in a single actual source, both video games, and that says they both existed to fill a role in their respective games first and just never caught on.

 

 

So alternatives?

The Assault Gunboat, while not a TIE would be nice, though I get that the stats for the Defender are probably not far off, so ok.

 

The Missile boat would have presented something that could have filled the Interdictor role while also doing something more. It would need a little roping in to not be a god-king, but the end result also would have been something better separated from the TIE Bomber. Of course if I had some kind of "Imperial sourcebook" in consideration I would intentionally leave this out of just the "Ace" book.

 

The Lone Scout-A, while not technically a "TIE" would have been really good (I don't remember seeing that in an existing supp, have I?). But... that's also one that can fit another book.

 

The TIE/rc and /fc would have been interesting. But those also make nice mini-stats for use in adventure modules, or as  a side-note in another more focused supp.

 

The avenger would have been cool too... but it's also too Defenderesque (kinda begining to think that putting the Defender in the core was a real mistake).

 

 

There's a couple more (TIE boarding craft, various combat transports, so on), but you see the issue. There's lots more options, but in almost every case you find at least one of the same two issues. Either it's likely to end up statted out as only slightly different then the Defender, or it's something that while not bad for the "ace" book, would be just as good or better in another.

 

And that's what my closing thought was earlier. The choices, especially those last two, weren't all that strong, but from the perspective of planning out the product line it also seems like that's all you'd really be left with.

 

 

 

 

 

Also... did anyone else notice the TIE Oppressor in the supporting artwork on pg 58? Cut content maybe?

Edited January 10, 2015 by Ghostofman

[Lathrop 838]

I expect the harder hitting Imperial ships will be more reserved for the Commander book and possibly spread throughout Adventure books. The Commander books because 2/3 of the current specializations deal with commanding larger ships (good for having to fight squads that deal more with bombs/torpedoes) and being in squads that give a Hull Trauma cushion and working with other squads (good against fighting other squads of particularly deadly starfighters). And Adventure books because nothing says, "Danger" like a unique ship at the hands of the Adventure's main enemy.

 

So yeah, it slightly sucks, but at the same time, can't expect them to have everything crammed in at once. Leaves nothing else for other books.

[kinnison 850]

For me the "new TIEs" in SoT were from recent video games, which are mainly designed to be Imperial version of Rebel fighters.

 

From my Point of view, i would think the Imperials arrogant enough to think the normal movie TIEs are good enough, especially in sufficient and superior numbers that they wouldn't need to develop new fighters to counter the rebel threat.  Especially when they have Star Destroyers, which are arguably the Premier ship of the line at the time of the Rebellion.

 

Granted i might be a bit hypocritical saying this.  But the T-wing, and R-41 were the result of another video game with a long history.  The Avenger and Assault Gunboat would have been appreciated.  Even the Skipray Blast boat

 

Even rules for Uglies

[HappyDaze 10,108]

What would you have preferred? I'm not trying to snark here, though I know it sounds kind of snarky. I'm genuinely curious though, because RPGs are so flexible and can be played in so many different ways.

I would have preferred a larger variety of Piloting (Planetary) craft, including heavier tanks. Drivers needed some loving too.

[kinnison 850]

Honestly, the stats for Ground Vehicles are rather simple and not much variation.  I could probably churn out stats on the fly if I really needed to.  some of the inspiration could come from the Force Commander game.

[RogueCorona 1,043]

The thing is if you stick to the movie and novel Imperial fighters pretty much everything is already out. Other then the TIE Advanced, and maybe the TIE Recon, which could very easily be in the Diplomat book, every TIE model I recall from the movies and books besides one first seen in the 40s ABY is in the Core Book. The comics introduced a few non-TIE Imperial fighter models but I don't recall any new TIEs and the non-TIE models were not commonly used by the Empire in he rpg era though a novel did establish that the I-7 Howlrunner was in production during the rpg's era.

 

Assault gunboats only got mentioned in a handful of source outside the PC games and older RPG systems and honestly I'm not even sure that all of the appearances on the Wookieepedia page are accurate. To be more specific the page says there was an assault gunboat in Showdown at Centerpoint. I remember an assault boat being mentioned in the novel but it was most certainly not an XG-1 Assault Gunboat. It was an armed troop transport not a Starfighter,was equipped with Anti-Personnel  lasers, and its strongly implied that the model in question did not have Ion Cannons.

[HappyDaze 10,108]

Honestly, the stats for Ground Vehicles are rather simple and not much variation.  I could probably churn out stats on the fly if I really needed to.  some of the inspiration could come from the Force Commander game.

The same can be said for starfighters. We have stats for well over a dozen between Age and Edge products, and the variation is pretty small. Still, those variations are there. I'd like the options for Piloting (Planetary) to be equally fleshed out.

[Lathrop 838]

The same can be said for starfighters. We have stats for well over a dozen between Age and Edge products, and the variation is pretty small. Still, those variations are there. I'd like the options for Piloting (Planetary) to be equally fleshed out.

 

I'm not even sure where we'd see decent chunks of Planetary ships at this point. Seemed like Explorer and Ace were the last likely ones across the 3 cores. Maybe just have to wait for different sector books? I guess that'd be reasonable places for FFG to put good amounts in at a time.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Lathrop

[HappyDaze 10,108]

Commander specializations can overlap with almost any other career, so almost any equipment might show up in that book. In truth I wish that there were no Commander career and that the specializations were assigned to the complementing careers (Squadron Leader to Ace, Tactician to Soldier, Commodore to...um, see next) and a different sixth Career was added that was Navy-based (with Commodore, Gunner, and something else).

[RogueCorona 1,043]

 

The same can be said for starfighters. We have stats for well over a dozen between Age and Edge products, and the variation is pretty small. Still, those variations are there. I'd like the options for Piloting (Planetary) to be equally fleshed out.

 

I'm not even sure where we'd see decent chunks of Planetary ships at this point. Seemed like Explorer and Ace were the last likely ones across the 3 cores. Maybe just have to wait for different sector books? I guess that'd be reasonable places for FFG to put good amounts in at a time.

 

 

I would be surprised if there aren't a lot of planetary vehicles in the soldier and commander books.

 

Commander specializations can overlap with almost any other career, so almost any equipment might show up in that book. In truth I wish that there were no Commander career and that the specializations were assigned to the complementing careers (Squadron Leader to Ace, Tactician to Soldier, Commodore to...um, see next) and a different sixth Career was added that was Navy-based (with Commodore, Gunner, and something else).

 

I'm pretty sure that by Navy you mean capital ship focused career. While I would buy the book in a heart beat, and probably incorporate many of the specs into characters of mine I'm having trouble thinking of a full set of six specs for such a career. (I could see Commodore, Gunner, Engineering officer or Damage control, Helm, and maybe Privateer but having trouble thinking of number six.)

[segara82 359]

I don't have the book so i must ask:

Is there a mention of the Scimitar assault bomber?

 

It was (in Legends) the successor of the TIE/b, with shields, escape pod and a second man as a gunner. After all, good pilots don't grow on trees. So why not bring that up?

[HappyDaze 10,108]

No Scimitar, but the Interdictor is a heavy bomber. Sadly, it lacks hyperdrive which would allow for independent strikes.

[Kiton2 46]

I could certainly see the Missile Boat in a commander book; if given its proper capabilities (unlike the TIE/Y-Wing treatment of the Defender) it's effectively an option for larger engagements. Not everyone wants to captain an ISD, let alone command a bunch of them, so a ship capable of handling itself at such a scale can let the player who put most of his XP in Ace actually keep his character relevant when the rest of the party has started going "capital" at high duty.

 

 

I do however feel there needs to be better consistency by whomever has been statting starfighters - to the point of wondering if playtesting or even putting two books side by side was even done. At some point starships need to be properly revisited and recalibrated, both to fix "Rocket-Tag where shields, piloting and handling do not affect your ability to avoid being vaporized" and to repair things like "The TIE/D is a Y-Wing, and look at the ion turret on the TIE/Hunter". If something is supposed to be fast, it should at least be fast.

 

A big official errata PDF or at worst "FFG Star Wars 1.5" come a starships-book or something

[Ghostofman 8,319]

I do however feel there needs to be better consistency by whomever has been statting starfighters - to the point of wondering if playtesting or even putting two books side by side was even done.

I know in the book I playtested we dedicated entire sessions to seeing if the new vehicles held up, and did plenty of this-to-that comparisons. I have no doubt the same was done with most of not all vehicles in every book.

 

The problem people seem to have is mostly just bad references and high expectations.

 

The TIE Defender is a great example of a victim of this  thought.

 

In the original form you see in the TIE Fighter sim for the PC the Defender was carefully designed and balanced to allow the player to engage dozens of enemy craft, often flying solo. In that perspective having something that is head-and-shoulders above all in speed, maneuverability, shields, and weapons is what you need just to function. It was (and still is) a darn good game, and the Defender is kinda cool, so it stuck and appeared in plenty of other sources, even in places where a lesser craft was really needed but the Author/artist wanted that Defender "cool factor". Toss in fighter survivability expectations come far too often from games like Rogue Squadron over actually... you know.. the movies, and it gets bad.

 

So... when you drop the Defender into this game (in the core book, where again, a lesser craft like the Assault Gunboat would have worked, but not have had the same "cool factor") you've got to rebalance it to work. Make it exactly like it appeared in TIE Fighter and you'll have something only the highest of the high level players can take on and even have hope of surviving. So they toned it down a little, but still kept it well within the realm of what it needs to do, and what it's supposed to do.

 

So now if an inexperienced GM drops it in piloted by a rival "ace" or a minion out of the book, the players have hope. But if an experienced GM sends it out piloted by a Nemesis Ace with Adversary 1-3, Supreme Full Throttle, All-terrain driver, Defensive driving 1-2, Natural and Master Driver... you're gonna be in a world of hurt.

[Norsehound 2,740]

I feel bad for the Assault Gunboat. It's one of the ships hardly seen in RPGs, EU sources, yet it's one of the most well-loved contributions from TIE Fighter. This and the TIE Avenger are clearly superior craft yet focus seems to fall on these Frankenstein-fighter duds that came out of Galaxies and Battlegrounds.

 

Oh well.

With my current campaign focusing on pre-yavin days I can see using these as specialized variant fighters in place of the later-years powerhouses, but honestly I'd rather have the Assault Gunboat over the TIE Aggressor.

[RogueCorona 1,043]

The Assault Gunboat was originally from X-Wing not TIE Fighter, same series though. I'm actually pretty happy with the ship selection from SoT overall though I'm still surprised they didn't include the Neutron Star carrier conversion which is one of the earliest dedicated carriers to appear in the EU and would give the system another Sil 7 ship. While Sil 5 and Sil 6 are my personal favorite size brackets I feel that the FFG system needs more Sil 7 craft desperately.

 

Still it has several of my top ten favorite fighter models in it so I'm very happy with what we got.

[Ghostofman 8,319]

Yeah, I've notice since TIE fighter was more popular it tends to get misattributed for a lot of things from X-wing.

 

It's a shame FPSes are the in game type now. Would really like to play something that puts me in the cockpit of a Torrent, old school y-wing, old school z-95, Actis, v-wing, and ARC-170. With EA holding the license that's all but assured to be a no-go.

[Norsehound 2,740]

Yeah the Gunboat started off in X-Wing as a stronger adversary true, but TIE Fighter put us in the cockpit. In either case, still under-utilized.

 

I dunno, I didn't think we didn't have a lot of big ships like that is because the FFG system doesn't lend itself well to huge ship combat?

[RogueCorona 1,043]

You want to do big fleet battles you need a wider variety of big warships IMO I know not all groups want to do games involving running capital ships or big fleet battles but I wish there was more variety in the sil 7 range for those groups that did want to do so. Right now IMO the Sil 7 ships in the FFG system fall into three categories. Those not likely to be widely used by the rebels if they use them at all, those that are significantly outdated, or those that basically became obsolete soon after being built. For some reason none of the Sil 7 models actually built by the Alliance, or Alliance built models likely to be Sil 7 have appeared in the game.

 

Of course I am also hoping for a lot more Sil 6 ships in the future, and if I'm very lucky some of the few Alliance built non-Mon Calamari Sil 8 ships

[Rationalinsanity 129]

Yeah, the Imperial fighter selection in SoT was downright disappointing; the ships ranged from redundant (Hunter and Aggressor), highly niche (Phantom) and downright stupid (Interdictor). And to rub salt in the wound the Imperials got a really weak tank as well, that thing is way too undergunned.

 

The only really good Imperial addition in SoT was the AT-AA (and the flak cannons) and the carriers. As a GM that really disappoints me.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Rationalinsanity

[RogueCorona 1,043]

The TIE Hunter is my second favorite TIE design so I don't mind seeing it again though I wish they included the Oppressor instead of it or in place of one of the other TIE models though. It would have been cool to see the I-7, V-38, and maybe the A-8 assuming that such a craft exists as well.