Advanced Adversary or how to introduce NPC named Heroes/Villains

[Josep Maria 685]

Hi everyone my gentle and geeky forummates and developers Almost New Year so, have a great day!

 

I have a proposition. I'm aware that games seems not designed for extra long therm gameplays or for higher than 6 stats, so, beeing aware of this here's my idea.

 

If do you want to introduce NPC Heroes/Villains to your games to confront/support your players's PCs, intead of adding more dices I considered to give those really important named NPC's a few (not so much) auto Success/Advantages and Failures/Threats (when being targeted) when they confront PC's.

 

Do you consider that is a good measure or just giving them more Adversary (up to 5 maybe) would be enough?

 

The main PC of my main campaign have Brawn 5 (6 with Enhance), 5 Ranks on Lightsaber skill and a FR 6. Also 20 Wounds and 18 of Strain. As you can see is a really advanced character.

 

I used Darth Vader concept character stats like if he was a Brawn 6, Lightsaber 5, Adversary 4 and FR 6 with above 25/28 Wounds.

 

Both of them were designed without F&D Beta rules, so no Parry or Makashi Finish on their duels. (Lightsabers with damage 10+ and Breach 1).

 

My "Vader" survived about 2/3 rounds XD So, using NPC/Inquisitor Parry rules that not cost any Strain would be enough or fix this?

 

Giving Vader Adversary 4 or maybe 5 is enough? (Still easy to hit)

 

And the third one, if the previous doesn't work (or aren't enough) what do you consider about the add a few auto results on the dice pool results?

 

Thanks to everyone and Happy New Year!

 

PS: Maelora, you FFG PM are full I cannot send any mail XD

 

 

[kaosoe 7,573]

You may have to shift perspectives. Rather than one named villain, what about a cabal? A collection of Sith elites; each with their own unique styles, backstories, and perspectives. All of which have vendettas against your PCs. Star Wars FFG doesn't lend itself too well with the 5-on-1 type of fights typical of many fantasy RPGs. Split your PCs and challenge them individually.

[Josep Maria 685]

Haapy New Year Kaosoe!

 

Not a bad idea. In this situation there was only one PC (because in this game we and only me GM and my player XD).

 

The situation was: Him with his Jedi (without F&D Beta rules) and 4 friendly NPC's trying to help in the battle (most of them get penalizations due the to the fear rules) and didn't helped so much, maybe a Boost was added in a particular moment.

 

XP ranks from the NPC's went from 350 to 700 XP or above. But the truth is that almost the four NPC's where useless XD

 

So, PC + 4 (more o less useful) NPC's against that Vader stats I described, and the result was that the combar ended in about 2-3 rounds (Due to Wound damage). That how my player captured Vader.

 

That is the reason for what I was looking for some guidance.

 

1. Just apply F&D Beta rules.

2. Add more Adversary talent to those type of NPC Bosses.

3. Some house rule like the one I mentioned (some autoresults) on checks.

4. Other options...

 

Thanks

Edited December 31, 2014 by Josep Maria

[EliasWindrider 2,712]

The problem is the lightsaber, breach 1 and lots of damage is nasty. A sole NPC, with adversary 3 and 2 black dice and almost the entire marauder tree was able to solo 6 of my pc's for 2-3 rounds (between her 23 or so wounds and I think soak 8, the damage accrual was slow), In another adventure I had a heavy/mercenary soldier with normal soak 6 and heroic resilience (for an extra 4 soak on demand) and adversary 2 and a black die for his armor, and over the course of 3 rounds the party did 1 wound to him, if they all had breach 1 he would have been dead the first round. Your problem is lightsabers with breach 1 and but loads of damage, use the F&D lightsaber and then your problem will decrease. The doctor Droid in my party (pressure point) has the "kryptonite knife" (about 8 strain damage that ignores soak) against my high soak "superman" NPCs, so I get where your coming from. I mean think about it street thug with a handgun will usually wreck a petty thief with a kryptonite, knife but against superman the handgun is useless and the kryptonite knife is just as deadly against any other opponent. Your problem is that your lightsaber wielding PC has everyone's kryptonite (weakness, Achilles heal) and lots of it. The problem is the lightsaber. That's where you should be focusing your attention. FFG, figured this out and nerfed lightsabers for F&D (and added the parry or deflect or whatever it's called), follow their example and you should be fine.

[theclash24 137]

I just got the book for Xmas and it doesn't seem like a 5 on 1 can be balanced fight via these rules without some tweaking. THATS where Being a GM/ST/DM comes into play. Go ahead and try your way. Do auto subtraction see if it works-- I like that idea especially against 1 baddy who deserves to be someone so scary it takes a mob to take him down. I wouldn't apply it all the time though -- I've used in other gaming systems a MMO raid boss design-- sometimes. The boss is decently powerful -- one on one would be bad...now I add a few special features. Maybe he's got an experimental shield that absorbs 90% damage regardless of weapon or rule. Now this shield has a catch of course. Maybe two droids are rapidly flying around and their link helps generate the shield(make them obvious or subtle-- your choice) now to bring the hardness up a bit...one guy shooting a round not so tough-- give him a few dinky battle droids to cause distraction and danger. UP THE DANGER?! if you have badass pcs or want to hammer it home that this guy is named for a reason... Give him powerful battle droids...make the droids that fuel the shield some black dice to show how fast they are moving when targeting them.

NOW not every named NPC should be this way but mix it up and the battles against bosses will each feel unique. Balance the mechanic out so it doesn't seem to MMO while they are engaged...don't give raid warnings it will sound like an MMO boss. Let the narratives cover up the fact it's a raid boss MMO fight. Make the focus about the boss very little about his small weaknesses-- the pcs will feel reward when they are the ones that go-- hey shoot that shield droid!

Mix up the mechanic? Try things like maybe the NPC is immune to a certain toxic gas. He traps the players in with him. Maybe almost like bane... He's dinky but when the gas floods the trapped from the players feel lethargic and sleepy and each round they gain set back...the boss grows huge and comic book bane style...natural armor more state and wounds...extra attacks because he's so fast now. Now it's a desperate fight-- the players can maybe think to try and turn the gas off...RP can unfold while a heroic soldier tries to distract the boss while a slicer tries to override his heavily encrypted gas vents.

Than mix it up with your style too. I've gamed for way to long to not see it all and it becomes really hard to introduce threats that sound hokey or repeated.

Hope these ideas help!

[progressions 2,181]

http://angrydm.com/2010/04/the-dd-boss-fight-part-1/

 

Here is an interesting suggestion, which is to make your "Boss" into a series of characters, which represent the same character at different stages. This is similar to many videogame bosses.

 

Your characters defeat the Boss in stage 1, so the next time they face the Boss, they have an extra power or two. And so on.

[Skie 209]

The OP's idea with auto-successes actually has appeared, in a way, in some new talents introduced in Far Horizons (and perhaps other splatbooks?). For example a Marshal's talent Unrelenting Skeptic adds successes/failures (depends on who makes the roll) equal to Vigilance rank when someone is using deception. 

Using this as a base we can think about a talent for High-level adversaries that adds successes/failurs equal to a skill rank to combat rolls. For example - coordination to add failures to PC's ranged rolls etc.

 

My PCs are also high level and if they are combat-oriented they can dish out a lot of damage, sometimes even one-shotting major villains (a lucky crit roll can do that!). So yeah, I'm not against bending the published rules to make really important NPCs surivive a bit longer...

[bradknowles 4,449]

The problem is the lightsaber, breach 1 and lots of damage is nasty. A sole NPC, with adversary 3 and 2 black dice and almost the entire marauder tree was able to solo 6 of my pc's for 2-3 rounds (between her 23 or so wounds and I think soak 8, the damage accrual was slow), In another adventure I had a heavy/mercenary soldier with normal soak 6 and heroic resilience (for an extra 4 soak on demand) and adversary 2 and a black die for his armor, and over the course of 3 rounds the party did 1 wound to him, if they all had breach 1 he would have been dead the first round.

Or give him Cortosis armor, so Breach doesn’t happen.

[Josep Maria 685]

Cortosis is a good alternative but, I try to evade that material property because I want to focus on canon. But a pretty good idea too brad

[Pac_Man3D 445]

You may have to shift perspectives. Rather than one named villain, what about a cabal? A collection of Sith elites; each with their own unique styles, backstories, and perspectives. All of which have vendettas against your PCs. Star Wars FFG doesn't lend itself too well with the 5-on-1 type of fights typical of many fantasy RPGs. Split your PCs and challenge them individually.

This. I'll be thinking along the lines of an equivalent to Jerec and his retinue of Dark Jedi when the time comes to run a Force and Destiny campaign.

[BarbeChenue 141]

Cortosis is a good alternative but, I try to evade that material property because I want to focus on canon. But a pretty good idea too brad

 

Sorry for the necroposting, but this might be helpful and relevant to the thread. The later contains mild spoilers for the A New Dawn novel:

 

In A New Dawn, a novel that is part of the "New Canon" as redefined by Disney and the LucasArt story group, a cyborg character named Vidian has a "cortosis mesh" armor that is depicted as a "silver sheen" very good at diffusing the energy of blaster shots (plasma-based weaponry in general, I'd venture to say, given the novel). Kanan was being held by Vidian and when Hera shot him Kanan got electrocuted/hurt by the cortosis mesh's conductivity.

Edited January 18, 2015 by BarbeChenue

[Yepesnopes 636]

A bit off topic but. As you can see by your own experience this is a game where characters are very competent from the very beginning and they improve fast (the same was valid for its precursor, Warhammer 3).

 

Some tips that work for me and my players:

 

- Give less experience points per session (less than recommended in the book I mean). It does not harm the fun of the game and characters will evolve at a slower pace. In this game I give 10 XP per session of 4 hours (I never penalise for a poor session). I may reward with 5 extra XP if they did solve a major plot line or if they do something great. My hard cap is 20 XP, but so far I have never given this number in any session.

 

- Kill PCs without blinking. Make it memorable, make it heroic, make it meaningful, but don't blink. If a character dies in a combat, in an accident or in any situation, dead he/she is. I am not saying you have to seek the death of your PCs! No! Just don't fudge the dice, don't give a second chance and don't be soft. It may seem tough, and it is the first time it happens, but my players learned fast to see the good side of it. By changing PCs from time to time you can play different character concepts, it boosts imagination 

 

-Retire characters which reach high levels of expertise. Easy as that, give them a glorious exit! They may become governors, crime lords, Jedi master, general of the rebellion... give them something that justify they cannot keep adventuring anymore. Write a nice text and best of all, make them appear shortly from time to time as NPCs, your players will love it!

[Daeglan 5,950]

The Order 66 Podcast is going to discuss this very subject on sunday. You can listen live if you go to the d20 forums and look up the time and link. 

[Josep Maria 685]

BarbeChenue, my Jedi player will love you if that it's true XDD

 

I see that the material is real, but the novel precises that is also against lightsabers or its only a personal subtract of this point?

 

Thanks

[Josep Maria 685]

Yepesnopes, I like your suggestions as general concepts a lot. I'm aware that one of the weak spots of Edge mechanics are high levels, but it's still playable.

 

We have various games, but that one I just mentioned is the main one. My players PC still have problem when confronting "world dangers" like traps, piloting checks and even with packs of Stormtroopers, so, this isn't the problem itself.

 

High level confrontation can be a problem. With the apparation of Parry & Reflect from F&D Beta, a lot of things have been fixed for Force characters. But two Jango vs Cad Bade is still a pretty fast duel XD

 

I don't fear about killing characters (so much XD) but there are plenty stories to play yet. About give XP... my players doesn't use to see so much XP from me... XDD Thay hate me and say that I'm a greedy master XD Also we use the "justify that purchase with time and other sources" instead "just have the XP, pick it up".

 

Parry & Reflect = Vader Survives more than 2 or 3 hits XD

 

And Daeglan, can you share please the link and when it would be the podcast? Thanks

[BarbeChenue 141]

BarbeChenue, my Jedi player will love you if that it's true XDD

 

I see that the material is real, but the novel precises that is also against lightsabers or its only a personal subtract of this point?

 

Thanks

 

The word "cortosis" occurs only once, as far as I've looked, and without greater precision than I've mentioned above, but it's a good sign. The two paragraphs detailing the blaster shot being absorbed and diffused outward can certainly help us imagine how that would help stop piercing/breach weapons (and coincides with we have in the Legends/EU material: "Cortosis, due to its energy resistant properties, was also resistant to blaster fire.").

 

No mention of the "shorting out lightsaber blades on contact, forcing the wielder to reignite his weapon", though.

 

As for the lightsaber "stopping" function: I doubt they would use the word "cortosis" on purpose and remove the main function it's renown for: stopping a lightsaber's contained plasma field from tearing through armor and bones.

 

It's as if they had used "Shien" (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Shien; which is canon) and "Form III" (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_III/Canon; which is also canon), but decided to abolish either the naming or numeral convention for no reason. In this particular case the Wookieepedia sentence "Combatants sometimes utilized specific forms of combat to aid them in battle. One such form was Shien,^[1] another, Form III.^[2]" leaves us imagining the rest.

 

So EotE/AoR/F&D's normal cortosis quality seems to be vindicated.

Edited January 18, 2015 by BarbeChenue

[Josep Maria 685]

It's not 100% sure, but seems enough for me. Thank you so much

[Maelora 5,807]

Sorry Josep, I've freed up my mail now!

 

I agree with kaosoe that it's really hard to challenge the PCs with a single enemy; even Vader with those stats is going down in a few rounds if he's shipping multiple attacks all the time.

 

My players have noted that our games really don't have a 'dastardly villain'. In some ways that's a shame, but in others, it intentional.    I set up the campaign as a faction war, so there's warring factions instead of a traditional 'big bad'.  It's more about purging the Alliance of its rogue elements, or supporting the moderates among the criminal elements or the Empire - even if they kill one of the enemy faction leaders (Mace or Tarkin or Xizor), the group as a whole survives.

 

(Our 'Big Bad' behind the scenes is something that can't be conventionally fought (Abeloth) as it's a  kind of Lovecraftian Old One Outer God that possesses people and jumps to a new host when the possessed host if killed...)

[Josep Maria 685]

OMG I'm also using Abeloth on my game Celestials, Kwa, Killiks... I love that!

 

Backing to post sorry XD

 

Yep, my players confront tons of minions, rivals and "unnamed nemesis" as isual XD But also I want to add those uber chars.

 

I almost 100% sure that if I used the F&D Parry/Reflect rules, Vader would have survived so many rounds and also attacking twice per round as book suggest  with Inquisitors.

 

Adversary 4 + Parry/Reflect (Inquisitor no Strain cost) + 2 turns per round = Player carnage XD (and I'm not using Cortosis in that moment XDD)

 

So, using new rules, at least Force users (but I've seen that Parry isn't exclusive for Force Users), big named Nemesis are a pretty good option.

 

What do you think?

[Maelora 5,807]

OMG I'm also using Abeloth on my game Celestials, Kwa, Killiks... I love that! 

 

Chortles gave me the idea.  We needed a really creepy 'big bad' who all the warring factions would have reason to fear, and to provide the rationale as to why the Jedi had become such repressive, heavy-handed jerks instead of lilywhite heroes.

 

We also wanted something more horror-orientated, along the lines of the imagery in 'Prometheus'. 

[Daeglan 5,950]

Why do people think a solo bad guy should be able to stand up to a group? How does that make any sense? They don't do it in the movies

[Maelora 5,807]

The main PC of my main campaign have Brawn 5 (6 with Enhance), 5 Ranks on Lightsaber skill and a FR 6. Also 20 Wounds and 18 of Strain. As you can see is a really advanced character.

 

 

If I'm really honest... that feels like it's pushing the limits of what the game can cope with, especially if he's got full Force trees in Move or Heal/Harm.  That's going to play out more like an anime game than classic Star Wars, in which for the most part, PCs are 'badass normals'.  Even Luke has to run away, or gets captured, or gets his ass kicked by an animal on Hoth and passes out due to the cold. 

 

When a character is that potent, its probably time to retire them to a mentor role and restart the game, playing their descendants or proteges. 

 

Alternatively, try to challenge the character with things you can't solve with a lightsaber. A souped-up weapon won't help someone freezing in the cold or lost in the desert. Look to situations where the environment is the enemy, where other skills come into play like Athletics, Survival or Medicine. 

 

Have situations that need to be solved with diplomacy, or stealth. Or do something like Smaug's attack on Lake Town where the character has to evacuate a city from aerial bombardment. Or 'Indiana Jones' situations where you have to explore or bypass ancient traps. 

 

Ground combats are going to be kerbstomps for the character, so make sure you have ship combats and other situations where a lightsaber isn't the solution, like a sarlacc or something similar.  

Edited January 18, 2015 by Maelora

[Maelora 5,807]

Why do people think a solo bad guy should be able to stand up to a group? How does that make any sense? They don't do it in the movies

 

It seems to be a bit of a D&D or videogame mentality. People want 'boss fights' I guess. 

[Josep Maria 685]

Obi and Qui-Gon vs Maul. Episode 1

 

Obi and Ani vs Dooku. Episode 2

 

Palpatine vs Windu, Kit Fisto and 1 or 2 more Jedi. Episode 3 XDD

Edited January 18, 2015 by Josep Maria

[Josep Maria 685]

About challenges. Yep mi main players doesn't have problems with that. He always return Wounded at home/base XDD

 

There is no problem with "common things". I challenge him by all the possible ways. Mental, Force, Mechanics, Piloting, Social... with everything, and as I said, he still have tons of problems to achieve goals.

 

Numbers say that he uses to win, most times, but not always and uses to need help from other NPC's and Destiny Points too XD

So that isn't the main problem. The last day a Bounty Hunter almost kills him (was surprised and without his lightsaber) but he almost die XD After that, two more Bounties were looking for him and he called the reinforcements and managed to scape but he cannot protect the house where he was but yes saved the people inside.

 

So the main focus was on 1 vs super nemesis or 3 or 4 versus... Palpatine as I said XD

Edited January 18, 2015 by Josep Maria