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Sithborg

Potential Restricted List discussion

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watch and learn

 

gemmer sojan, awing test pilot, refit, stealth device, intimidation

 

etahn abaht, stressbot, outmaneuver, FCS

 

wedge, predator, r2-d2

 

gemmer blocks, using intimdiation renders the falcon with zero defense for the whole turn, that ability for 5 defense dice if she gets close but not touching. 3 attack where she's strongest, at range one. 

 

etahn, outmaneuver does its thing, stressbot keeps the falcon predictable for gemmer to continue blocking, or at the least actionless. etahn also flips crits for everybody, hoping to hit that agility reducer.  

 

wedge, is obvious. put the hurt on.

 

 

thats 3 good ships, all designed to eliminate the the entire idea behind a fat han. if it has no actions and no 3po, its just a wonderfully large target.

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You would completely erase Falcons and phantoms from high end play. Nobody who has really thought it through wants that.

 

Actually, after the last six months I doubt many people would mind.

 

Then they need to really think it through. There are already sweeping changes on the way that will hit both of these ships pretty hard.

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Restricted lists is a bad idea, especially when they're not necessary. The real problem that people have is the prominence of two types of lists. The better idea is altering the tournament structure to a multiple, character restricted, list format. What I mean is tournament players bring two lists and are required to use each list at least once. Uniques can only appear in one list and not the other. The same faction must be played in both lists.

This forces players to make some very important, strategic decisions. It also creates nail biting scenarios where a player could face an uphill climb or unorthodox opponent.

By the way, I don't have the aforementioned problem with either list existing in today's meta.

Edited by Red Winter

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I actually prefer a multi-list format using similar rules to Privateer Press.

 

For those unaware, you basically have 2-3 lists, and must use each of them at least once in a tournament.

You cannot take more than 1 copy of any unique model (or card in this case) between ALL your lists.

For example, if you take C-3P0 in one list, your others couldnt have it...ditto Millenium Falcon Title, any named pilot, Lone Wolf and so on.

 

Though admittedly i dont think X-Wing is big enough for 3 lists yet, so not sure if this would have THAT much impact at present.

 

fat han +3 z95

dash + corran

decimator + phantom

howlrunner swarm

biggs walks the dogs

 

look i just made 5 very good lists with no shared uniques.......

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Coma white, um good for you?

They're good lists but with different play styles. The lists above represent the current available upgrades and don't account for how scum might shake things up once they're on the field.

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Coma white, um good for you?

They're good lists but with different play styles. The lists above represent the current available upgrades and don't account for how scum might shake things up once they're on the field.

 

Thats the point, in warmachine your 2 or 3 lists want to cover different match ups.  The guy said he didnt think xwing was big enough for a 3list format event, and thus i proved him wrong.

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I like the idea in concept, I'm not sure we need it here and now though.

Myself I'd rather see this then a constant release of new upgrades to counter the current top builds. If they could achieve good balance by "fixing" things and not releasing a new 3PO or ACD type upgrade that needs upgrades to counter... Then such a thing wouldn't be needed.

But if the option is upgrade bloat where every wave has 5-6 upgrades that do nothing but deal with existing issues, I'd much rather see them just restrict some cards to fix balance issues.

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Coma white, um good for you?

They're good lists but with different play styles. The lists above represent the current available upgrades and don't account for how scum might shake things up once they're on the field.

 

Thats the point, in warmachine your 2 or 3 lists want to cover different match ups.  The guy said he didnt think xwing was big enough for a 3list format event, and thus i proved him wrong.

 

 

Well...not really proved wrong, I didnt mean "theres not 3 good lists", what I meant was that the game isnt big enough to provide enough variety to justify a 3 list format.

 

Yes, thats 5 good lists, but that is VERY few for a 3 list format. There would end up being even less variety between players than there is currently. Warmahordes for example has hundreds of potential combinations of decently competitive casters and units, even taking into account the unique restrictions. The 3 lists work because you need that many to cover more of the possibilities.

 

Thats just not a thing in X-Wing, and in all honesty it will NEVER get to that size realistically.

In effect, i'm saying that while it COULD be done, there's no NEED. Theres simply not enough potential "hard counter" lists to justify needing a 3 list format. 2 would be nice though.

Edited by Extropia

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fat han +3 z95

dash + corran

decimator + phantom

howlrunner swarm

biggs walks the dogs

 

look i just made 5 very good lists with no shared uniques.......

 

Howlrunner swarms are a big meh against anything with a Phantom. Same for Biggs walks the dogs. Those were good lists wave 3, not wave 4/5.

Edited by DreadStar

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I like the idea in concept, I'm not sure we need it here and now though.

Myself I'd rather see this then a constant release of new upgrades to counter the current top builds. If they could achieve good balance by "fixing" things and not releasing a new 3PO or ACD type upgrade that needs upgrades to counter... Then such a thing wouldn't be needed.

But if the option is upgrade bloat where every wave has 5-6 upgrades that do nothing but deal with existing issues, I'd much rather see them just restrict some cards to fix balance issues.

But that's also part of FFG's design philosophy. If there are issues that need resolution in the meta than provide a counter. A la Upgrade. Like look at Auto-thrusters. Is it good? Good question, are you fighting a turret ship is a better question. An upgrade that you equip to ships that usually do just fine at range three anyway so don't get much benefit out of that part, only can use the full effect against specific other ships/upgraded ships. If Falcons and Dash leave because this card hits, you don't really accomplish much. Outside those and the Decimator, there's not much use for Autos. Like they would be wasted points in some matches. It's also worth noting that Auto thrusters when compared to Threepio is just strictly better. 

 

It's a point Cheaper

It's not Unique

On Interceptors it still can leave you with a Mod slot

It will ALWAYS fire, not randomly like Golden Nimrod

It works on EVERY attack, also unlike Golden Boy

 

It's only limitation being that you use it on...wait for it...The only ships you really need to put them on!!! :huh:  Like that was going to be an issue? Interestingly, Threepio can only go on a few ships in the Rebel arsenal to begin with, and he takes up a valuable slot in the process. Sooo yeah. Power creep got to us. I don't expect to hear any complaining when as soon as it's released I just put my turrets away and let players waste points on the darn things, unless they're at range three in which case I probably wasn't going to hit them anyway. So while I'm glad with what it can do to the meta, I also think it's poorly executed game design. Notably the only big one I've notice in this game.

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But that's also part of FFG's design philosophy.

That's their first choice, but it's not their only choice. They do have a restricted list for their LCG's. So upgrades aren't the only option.

I'm not against fixing things via upgrades, but there becomes a point of upgrade bloat. When they've released the 15th upgrade to "fix the meta" then we have a system that no longer works. It's why it's quite often better to nerf than buff.

Lets say that Auto-thrusters doesn't have the impact everyone wants and Turrets still dominate, then what, do they keep releasing more upgrades to deal with them? What happens when a upgrade proves to be too good, and turrets become pointless to play? Do they start releasing upgrades to turrets to make them viable again?

I'm not saying we're at that point, but there is a point where more upgrades are not the answer. You can only pile so many bandaids on a wound, and sometimes it's better to fix it with something a bit more painful, but longer lasting.

Edited by VanorDM

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 It's also worth noting that Auto thrusters when compared to Threepio is just strictly better. 

 

I think you and I have different ideas of what "strictly better" means.  C3P0 just about always goes off versus the majority of attacks.  Autothrusters only work if you are at range 3 or fighting a turret ship outside its arc, and thusly doesn't have an effect versus most enemies.

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@ VanorDM: Absolutely agree. We are of the same mind it seems.

 

@ Wundergoat. Threepio does go off a lot of attacks. But unless you guess correct, he never actually profits, which is why you see him solely on Falcons. That one die with only two evade/other outcomes is far easier to predict then the two agility dice on the HWK and their three possible outcomes. All he really does is guarantee you get at least one evade on the one dice you were rolling anyway, with a risk you might get to add one evade. If you activate him and roll a natural evade anyway you wasted him. Functionally he doesn't increase the evade pool above two on his own with out that risk. Autos on the other hand will often start with three dice, and could easily have four in some cases and as many as five in game. So the times it actually guarantees one of those dice is much higher since among three plus dice you will probably have at least one blank.

 

Threepio can only guarantee one of one dice. 62% of the time he will get a conversion. Once per turn. Thus is best against attacks that are for one hit.

 

Autothrusters guarantee one of three (or more) dice. What's the probability of three 37% chances compunded? Really good that it will get you somewhere is what it is. There are (at least) ten possible outcomes on three greens I want to say? And five of them have blanks for conversions. The rest are all focus/evade combinations. And it works every attack. And will not only save you from attacks that hit for one point of damage, but will also save you from a lot of attacks that hit for two damage. To me that's way better for an insurance policy. And I already said it was situational as all hell.

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If FFG ever starts monkeying with rules the way Wizkids has then I'm out. WK has had so many rules change, then change back, and then have a completely different change later I don't even know how to play Heroclix anymore. You have to spend hours online just to figure it out. I do NOT want FFG to EVER take that dark path.

Let's just play what we have and be happy. If you don't want to play someone then don't.

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Restricted lists is a bad idea, especially when they're not necessary. The real problem that people have is the prominence of two types of lists. The better idea is altering the tournament structure to a multiple, character restricted, list format. What I mean is tournament players bring two lists and are required to use each list at least once. Uniques can only appear in one list and not the other. The same faction must be played in both lists.

This forces players to make some very important, strategic decisions. It also creates nail biting scenarios where a player could face an uphill climb or unorthodox opponent.

By the way, I don't have the aforementioned problem with either list existing in today's meta.

 

It also increases the buy in for a potential player. I'm sorry, getting a decent 100 pt squad can be pretty expensive. Add in, a lot of us do not have the time to create two good, well tested lists for a tournament. I know I don't like bringing more than I have to to a tournament, so bringing 2 squads is annoying to me. 

 

The biggest thing I don't get, is why would you change the entire game format, when it is much simpler to merely nip the problem in the bud. As the game continues to grow, more and more upgrades will be released. And the likelyhood that some of these combos will be abusive will rise. The designers have been pretty good so far, but no playtesting method is foolproof. Some might say some problems have already slipped through. I just don't see how toying with how the game is played in tournaments is better than merely cutting out the problem combos. We are talking about 4, maybe 5 cards that wouldn't be able to be played together. 

 

It is the simplest solution. It opens up the meta, and it also opens up the design since they no longer have to design around certain combos. 

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Restricted lists are a good reason to quit a game. Good thing this game doesn't need one. Compete or don't, but blaming the cards because you can't think a way out from under them is dumb. Clearly the designers think that they have it well in hand, and I will put my trust in them to continue to design a game I love. These half baked ideas that pop up get tiresome. Just because it's in another game doesn't mean that it will work in this game.

 

And can we please stop with the repackaged 'I hate turrets QQ' threads? 6 months plus of them is enough.

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Restricted lists are a good reason to quit a game. Good thing this game doesn't need one. Compete or don't, but blaming the cards because you can't think a way out from under them is dumb. Clearly the designers think that they have it well in hand, and I will put my trust in them to continue to design a game I love. These half baked ideas that pop up get tiresome. Just because it's in another game doesn't mean that it will work in this game.

 

And can we please stop with the repackaged 'I hate turrets QQ' threads? 6 months plus of them is enough.

I would like to see some proof that a restricted list is so damaging. Especially when though as you say they aren't for every game, games that do get them haven't been abandoned because of them save by a slim few players. Hardly enough to worry about when trying to protect the overall health of the game. But I'm reminded of the ending scene of Contact. What intrigues me about the  presence of so much static over the issues of Phantoms and Falcons, isn't that there is static. But that there are six-plus months of it. 

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Restricted lists are a good reason to quit a game. Good thing this game doesn't need one. Compete or don't, but blaming the cards because you can't think a way out from under them is dumb. Clearly the designers think that they have it well in hand, and I will put my trust in them to continue to design a game I love. These half baked ideas that pop up get tiresome. Just because it's in another game doesn't mean that it will work in this game.

 

And can we please stop with the repackaged 'I hate turrets QQ' threads? 6 months plus of them is enough.

 

AGOT LCG did quite well when they did a massive (and I mean massive) addition to their Restricted list. I saw a lot of people comment that it was a like a new game, for the better. SWLCG is doing fine with their recent additions to a Restriced list. Restricted lists are a part of the FFG tournament structure. It is an elegant way to remove problem combos without having to spend resources to make a counter, that also has to be balanced. 

 

I'm not necessarily advocating it. But, I am really curious as to how the meta would look without the race to the top of PS, since Echo and Whisper would be stuck at PS 6 and 7. None of these complaints about 2 Atk ships being nullified by Threepio and Falcon title. I'm kind of curious what would happen to the enviroment without the Phantoms as is. Would the Falcons still be at the top? 

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Honestly I'd prefer we didn't go down this road. It's not a dealbreaker as I have played games with restricted lists before, but it is annoying when your favourite combinations of cards are rendered unplayable just because they are popular. (Rotation's a dealbreaker though)

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I'd say, restrict to only allowing 1 upgrade on a single ship. I wouldnt want to prevent things like 2 x Sigma + ACD,or running the Wave 3 classic PS 6 BSP+VI Tie Swarm, you know? Is also still want to be able to run both Echo and Whisper with ACD in a list, cuz that is an awesomely fun combo to fly. However, not being able to put this ships at PS 8 and 9 would open up some ship options.

This isn't a horrible idea, honestly. Minimal errata necessary, just a TOURNAMENT rule change.

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But then, Lando crew, Jan Ors, etc, are cards that would have to be not included with C3PO, as they are cards that provide evade tokens, just like the MF title, just in a different way.

It'll take a bit of thought beyond just our gut reactions, I think.

However, Tournament rules can always be changed back if turns out to be too negative of an impact.

IN SUMMARY:

I'm okay with VI and ACD to be restricted to only 1 of each upgrade PER SHIP.

MF Title and C3PO will require more thought, as there are other crew options that provide evade tokens, AND this will affect future releases more easily. As of right now, only foreseeable ship with cloaking action is the Phantom, so no future worries there.

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