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Sithborg

Potential Restricted List discussion

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Some of the meta discussion has made me think about what the game would look like with a theoretical Restricted List, with some of the problem combos on there. 

 

For those unfamiliar with how FFG handles a Restricted List in their LCGs, you get to pick ONE card from the Restricted List. You can add it as many times into your list/deck as legally allowed, but you are unable to add any other card from the Restricted List. This really hurts problem combos. 

 

So, I am curious what the meta would look like if Veteran Instincts, Advanced Cloaking Device, C-3PO, and The Millenium Falcon were put onto a theoretical Restricted List. With the Phantom being less of a threat, would the dependency on the Falcon lesson, allowing more diverse squads. While simultaneously taking out some of the biggest complaints of the defensive Falcon, tons of concentrated firepower would not be as vital. Would adding Engine Upgrade also be a worthwhile addition, with all the complaints about arc dodging Large ships? 

 

I'm just curious what others would think. The more I think about it, I would like to see something like this rather than unwieldy errata or power creep to deal with certain threats. Is my theoretical list too much, or is there more cards that need to be restricted? 

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While I sympathize with TC's ire on certain upgrades that lead to Fat Han, I'm inclined to say that, in the current state of the game, a restricted list isn't necessary. I trust that with a game like this FFG won't come out with some infinite loop combo or something that is essentially un-killable. At the moment the "un-killables" are really ships that just require the entire effort of your squad to whittle down.

 

Yes, pouring that time into a single ship makes late-game play difficult, but a lot of that can also be attributed to the luck-based nature of dice-based combat. Even with 3P0 (something that can be used only once or can be utterly wasted if using Outmaneuver) or other abilities that seek to factor luck out of the equation, there is something that can counter it. In the game's current state, things are relatively well-balanced, even if R2-D2 Corran or Fat Han is annoying to deal with.

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Seems like a horrible Idea. There is nothing more annoying then getting told you cant play with stuff you paid your hard earned money on.

 

That's a banned list. The Restricted List just says that you can't play certain cards together. Sort of like factions do...

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Seems like a horrible Idea. There is nothing more annoying then getting told you cant play with stuff you paid your hard earned money on.

 

That's a banned list. The Restricted List just says that you can't play certain cards together. Sort of like factions do...

 

 

Not really. Telling me I can't play C-3PO and my falcon card together in the same list when I spent $100 on a ship I will never use to do just that is super lame.

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I actually prefer a multi-list format using similar rules to Privateer Press.

 

For those unaware, you basically have 2-3 lists, and must use each of them at least once in a tournament.

You cannot take more than 1 copy of any unique model (or card in this case) between ALL your lists.

For example, if you take C-3P0 in one list, your others couldnt have it...ditto Millenium Falcon Title, any named pilot, Lone Wolf and so on.

 

Though admittedly i dont think X-Wing is big enough for 3 lists yet, so not sure if this would have THAT much impact at present.

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Seems like a horrible Idea. There is nothing more annoying then getting told you cant play with stuff you paid your hard earned money on.

 

That's a banned list. The Restricted List just says that you can't play certain cards together. Sort of like factions do...

 

 

Not really. Telling me I can't play C-3PO and my falcon card together in the same list when I spent $100 on a ship I will never use to do just that is super lame.

 

 

If you really bought a Corvette solely so you could netdeck with the cool kids, that is super lame.

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I think the list as a concept is ok, but nothing has been so meta-warping as to warrant being put on such a list.  Basically to be considered for the list, a combination would have to be so strong that successful lists would either need to be using the combo or specifically tailored to defeat that combo.  Neither the Fat Falcon or VI Whisper ever got to this point.  They have further had their overstated positions eroded with wave 5.  Wave 6 will introduce a variety of additional hard and soft counters to both.

 

TL;DR - Restricted list is ok as long as nothing is on it.

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C-3PO shouldn't be banned, for all of the moaning that a very many players have about him.

(Disclaimer: I don't have the 3PO card and somehow I've avoided flying against him.)

But 3PO *is* still overpowered. How he is consistently used (always choosing 0) is against his flavor as a character. Threepio is about calculating the odds, especially when the odds aren't in his favor. When did Goldenrod ever calculate the odds as being *zero* to something? That's right, he didn't. Mathematically 3PO as he is currently is a HUGE advantage over the opponent.

I don't want to see any card banned. FFG has done a remarkable job keeping things as balanced as they probably can. But, they're only human. Mistakes and underestimations happen. They didn't see how any card could be so wildly stilted against an opponent, with no way to honestly address it in kind. On the other hand, I can see how 3PO as a concept is a *fun* one and should be kept in the game.

Errata the card so that its player must choose 1 through 3. Problem solved. And it's in keeping with 3PO as a character.

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I actually prefer a multi-list format using similar rules to Privateer Press.

 

For those unaware, you basically have 2-3 lists, and must use each of them at least once in a tournament.

You cannot take more than 1 copy of any unique model (or card in this case) between ALL your lists.

For example, if you take C-3P0 in one list, your others couldnt have it...ditto Millenium Falcon Title, any named pilot, Lone Wolf and so on.

 

Though admittedly i dont think X-Wing is big enough for 3 lists yet, so not sure if this would have THAT much impact at present.

i think it would be fine, as a two list enviroment, as that would force players to pay generics again, and it would force players to strategically localize assets in an effort to make their list pairing better.  We do this all the time in Warmachine (Morv2Krug2FTW) and i wish more tabletop minis games would do it.

 

it also allows you to build lists that answer bad matchups, like not having to play fat han into a swarm of ties, having another list that can answer that, or not having to play whsiper into super VI Dash and VI corran.

 

I am also a big fan of the reserves rule.  its another Warmachine port from SR2013.  In the reserves rule, you had a percentage of your total points (typically 20% if i remember correctly) that you created a "reserve list from". you then selected 20% of your stuff in your list, and could swap out that 20 for the 20% in your reserves.

 

so...

 

if i played say, 

 

Yorr

Fel with upgrades

Whisper with upgrades

 

and the reserve was set at say, 25 points....

 

I could have 25 points sitting off to the side to swap out yorr with.  so if that 25 points was two academy ties, i could swap out yorr for 2 academy pilots, changing my list composition, and theoretically giving me a better game against whatever opponent i felt that i needed two academy pilots more than i needed yorr.

 

but you cant change your "swap out" if you swap out, in the above scenario, you can ONLY change Yorr for the Academy Pilots. you cant mix and match as you see fit.

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Actually I think it's a very interesting idea. Maybe not in that form though. The concept I was playing around with was a trade out bid. Something that allowed each player to discard an upgrade card from their opponents list by discarding a more expensive one from theirs. So if you have a Proton Torpedo and you really don't want to deal with that ACD, you could have those discard. and then your opponent could discard his tactician to strip your Vet Instincts. It was a neat idea that just wouldn't really work though. Would have been interesting to see how lists developed in such an environment.

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I'm thinking Outmaneuver on a heavy hitter and a few Feedback Array Z95s might make a decent counter to Fat Han.

 

Overall, I don't like the idea of a restricted list. Its a Living Game, it should be "fixed" with new upgrades, ships and pilot abilities that make some of the dominant combos less desirable, or at least more challenging to win with.

Edited by Radarman5

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I strongly disagree Radarman.   The concept of the 'living game' brought us the abomination that is 40k.   It could quite possibly become worse in XWing because you wouldn't be limited to being forced to buy the new whizbang unit when your faction's codex comes out and destroys the value of what used to be good.   In XWing you might be forced to buy the newest expansion every time it comes out to stay competitive.

 

An interesting new option like BTL-A4 or a minor fix like Chardaan is fine.   An autoinclude like X1 and Advanced Targeting Computer seems awfully close to supercharging a model that has sat around on store shelves for too long.   If the money grubbing ever gets to the point where they issue a fix for the XWing or TIE Fighter I'll be heading back to the Grim Darkness of the Far Future in a heartbeat.

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(something that can be used only once or can be utterly wasted if using Outmaneuver)

 

Only true if every ship you have is running Outmaneuver. If the Falcon rolls an evade die that round it triggers C-3PO and gets its 5/8 of an evade token.

 

An interesting new option like BTL-A4 or a minor fix like Chardaan is fine.   An autoinclude like X1 and Advanced Targeting Computer seems awfully close to supercharging a model that has sat around on store shelves for too long.   If the money grubbing ever gets to the point where they issue a fix for the XWing or TIE Fighter I'll be heading back to the Grim Darkness of the Far Future in a heartbeat.

Given the TC interview all but confirmed an X-wing nudge I guess you're off then. Bye.

 

Not really. Telling me I can't play C-3PO and my falcon card together in the same list when I spent $100 on a ship I will never use to do just that is super lame.

If you actually bought a CR-90 and never used it just to get the 3PO card you're not really in a position to complain about lack of value of money.

 

But 3PO *is* still overpowered. How he is consistently used (always choosing 0) is against his flavor as a character. Threepio is about calculating the odds, especially when the odds aren't in his favor. When did Goldenrod ever calculate the odds as being *zero* to something? That's right, he didn't. Mathematically 3PO as he is currently is a HUGE advantage over the opponent.

 

Mathematically 3PO is 5/8 of an evade token for free. Weaker than Isard.

Edited by TIE Pilot

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Errata the card so that its player must choose 1 through 3. Problem solved. And it's in keeping with 3PO as a character.

 

I almost get the impression that this was what they intended anyway. Would welcome an errata like this.

 

 

 

Mathematically 3PO is 5/8 of an evade token for free. Weaker than Isard.

 

 

Isard is more expensive, and can't trigger if the ship is stressed, blocked or standing on an asteroid. C3PO always works, unless you are Outmaneuvered.

Edited by Okapi

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You would completely erase Falcons and phantoms from high end play. Nobody who has really thought it through wants that.

 

Actually, after the last six months I doubt many people would mind.

 

Isard is more expensive, and can't trigger if the ship is stressed, blocked or standing on an asteroid. C3PO always works, unless you are Outmaneuvered.

 

Isard is more expensive, by one point. Stress is the only thing that stops Isard, however. Blocking and asteroids only skip your perform action step: Isard triggers at the start of the combat phase.

 

Again, Outmaneuver does not work on C-3PO unless every ship is running it. So long as the Falcon rolls one evade die 3PO will trigger.

Edited by TIE Pilot

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Actually I think the the idea has some merit.  It could promote more creative lists rather than a tournament with literally three lists played between the players.  I'd like to see what folks would come up with when you can't make Fat Han, or Dash.  Tie Swarm, however.  That cannot be banned or changed up at all, unless you do some sort of force org restriction.....which also couldn't happen.

Edited by GrandMoffMatt

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C-3PO shouldn't be banned, for all of the moaning that a very many players have about him.

(Disclaimer: I don't have the 3PO card and somehow I've avoided flying against him.)

But 3PO *is* still overpowered. How he is consistently used (always choosing 0) is against his flavor as a character. Threepio is about calculating the odds, especially when the odds aren't in his favor. When did Goldenrod ever calculate the odds as being *zero* to something? That's right, he didn't. Mathematically 3PO as he is currently is a HUGE advantage over the opponent.

I don't want to see any card banned. FFG has done a remarkable job keeping things as balanced as they probably can. But, they're only human. Mistakes and underestimations happen. They didn't see how any card could be so wildly stilted against an opponent, with no way to honestly address it in kind. On the other hand, I can see how 3PO as a concept is a *fun* one and should be kept in the game.

Errata the card so that its player must choose 1 through 3. Problem solved. And it's in keeping with 3PO as a character.

The number of times 3PO says "we're doomed" along with most of his number crunching being wildly in favor of death "3,720 : 1" to me would indicate that he would always guess zero if it was actually him. Who knows maybe his naysaying gave Han the motivation he needed to pull off that evasive maneuver just to prove the droid wrong. Thematically it seems perfect, annoying to face, but the Falcon has always been solid. As far as the designers not realizing what 3PO would do to the meta, maybe they had faith that the community that has advocated so hard for flying casual wouldn't have so many cling so hard to a list just because it would win. Maybe we as players failed them with our "lack of vision". But, new toys will be here soon and our game will evolve again . Soooo pumped for my Raider!

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outmaneuver isn't the only way to get around threepio. wedge, intimidation, and that one crit that drops your agility all say hello.

 

3po can be beaten, even by a suboptimal build. and then you could always run across a player that doesnt guess zero every single time. 

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