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Bloodstripe Baron

Power Creep

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So 2 attack ships:

 

So its seems like the last two "fixes" (y-wing and advanced) have just added to the attack of the ship.

 

a-wing: The chardaan refit reduced the cost but the main complaint is still lack of "punch"

 

That means the only two attack ships left unchanged are the z's (old model) and the tie fighter

 

While this increase in attack of most ships has helped, its partially nerfed the tie swarm- but its also made 3 attack the standard and 2 attack lacking. As evidence by the plethora of "fix the x-wing" threads.

 

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If those two-attack ships didn't have to kill ships with 13 hit points and two guaranteed evades per combat phase, people wouldn't complain about their lack of punch as much.

 

Power creep started in Wave 2 with the release of the YT-1300, and I think many of the game's problems stem from that ship.

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The tie and headhunter having two attacks is not an issue because they are dirt cheap.

The advanced is nearly twice the cost for two shields, it was seeing very little play so warranted an update.

The x-wing by comparison was still strong in wave three with xxbb lists doing well, their issue is z-95s are just cheaper letting you take three instead of the two rookies that used to escort Han.

Two attack ships are not in any danger of disappearing.

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They're cheap filler ships. Y's and A-wings are NOT cheap filler ships. Y-wings get to 25+ pts really fast, and I think if prototypes were any good as filler we'd have seen it by now. Greens get pretty expensive once you put that 2nd ept into them, even with chardaan, they end up around 22-23 pts at least.. That's 2 Z-95's. Z's and Tie/F won't be going anywhere. And for that matter i'm not seeing many people get too excited about the Scyk, as its going to be another 2 dice attack ship that balloons into 20 pts territory with its cannons. Heavy Scyk w/ HLC is 23 pts. Thats 2 Scum Z's. A lot of people will take the reliability of extra ships everytime.

Edited by Bipolar Potter

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Two-attack ships aren't really underpowered; they're just not particularly well-suited to the current meta. Most lists have at least one ship that throws four-dice attacks, which means that most lists are a bit more focused on defense because they need to counter those massive attacks. Two-dice attacks aren't bad, but they aren't very good in the Clash of Titans meta we have now.

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If those two-attack ships didn't have to kill ships with 13 hit points and two guaranteed evades per combat phase, people wouldn't complain about their lack of punch as much.

 

Power creep started in Wave 2 with the release of the YT-1300, and I think many of the game's problems stem from that ship.

Counterpoint: That underpowered 2-attack ship has been on the final table of every world championship since FFG started doing them.

 

 

I don't think the OP was talking about TIE Fighters. He's talking about two-attack ships that cost more and are being "fixed" to do more damage — the A-Wing, Y-Wing and TIE Advanced.

 

The M3-A is a new two-attack ship coming out and it comes with a way to give it three or four attack dice (its title that gives a cannon slot), as if heading off the inevitable fix that would be necessary otherwise.

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So 2 attack ships:

 

So its seems like the last two "fixes" (y-wing and advanced) have just added to the attack of the ship.

 

a-wing: The chardaan refit reduced the cost but the main complaint is still lack of "punch"

 

That means the only two attack ships left unchanged are the z's (old model) and the tie fighter

 

While this increase in attack of most ships has helped, its partially nerfed the tie swarm- but its also made 3 attack the standard and 2 attack lacking. As evidence by the plethora of "fix the x-wing" threads.

The X-Wing issues have nothing to do with 2 attack (X-Wings have 3 attack). Neither did the TIE Advanced's problems. The problem has to do with role.

The TIE\ad was built as a tankier TIE Fighter when nobody has any use for a tankier TIE Fighter. The new upgrades change that not by "just adding to the attack of the ship." They give the ship a unique consistency of attack that can make them particularly deadly to low agility opponents and/or unshielded targets.

The X-Wing has a similar problem in that it lacks a specialized role. Generalists are simply not competitive in a game full of specialists, particularly when there is a very effective specialist (the B-Wing) that can be had for almost the same price. In fact, boosting the attack of the X-Wing just shoves it into the heavy assault fighter role that the B-Wing already fills. It needs it's own unique role, not just to deal more damage.

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The X-Wing has a similar problem in that it lacks a specialized role. 

The platform the xwing provides is a solid all around'er with no blazingly obvious vulnerabilities. The specialization of the ship comes from pilot choice, mech choice, and loadout. If you ask me, the xwing has more than enough specialization along with three immortally awesome pilots that will never lose their relevance in the game: Luke, Wedge, and Biggs.

 

The xwing doesn't need a title, not any time soon anyhow. They have a pilot for every situation so their jockeys are pretty much their title. 

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If those two-attack ships didn't have to kill ships with 13 hit points and two guaranteed evades per combat phase, people wouldn't complain about their lack of punch as much.

 

Power creep started in Wave 2 with the release of the YT-1300, and I think many of the game's problems stem from that ship.

Counterpoint: That underpowered 2-attack ship has been on the final table of every world championship since FFG started doing them.

 

I don't think the OP was talking about TIE Fighters. He's talking about two-attack ships that cost more and are being "fixed" to do more damage — the A-Wing, Y-Wing and TIE Advanced.

 

The M3-A is a new two-attack ship coming out and it comes with a way to give it three or four attack dice (its title that gives a cannon slot), as if heading off the inevitable fix that would be necessary otherwise.

You're right, I misunderstood you on the TIE thing. Whenever you spend 20 points or more on a ship, the expectation is that it should be able to kill at least that many points in return. With the A-Wings, and the named ones in particular, that didn't happen. Same with the old Advanced.

I don't agree that the Falcon represented power creep. It took two more waves and the release of Epic ships before that ship truly became competitive. If it wasn't for Phantoms finally presenting a hard counter to the TIE swarm (the natural predator of the Falcon List), it'd probably still be a niche ship.

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Against high hitpoint, low agi targets you can't get more efficient firepower then the Z-95 or Tie fighter and that is multiplied when you get into range 1. There effectiveness reduces greatly when faceing high agi targets. But mixing a few of those ships in your list greatly enhances your average firepower.

 

The Awing is a different beast altogether. It needs a lot more finesse to get good mileage out of. You really need to work to get the most out of those EPT's. Jake and the Greens are viable, the Prototype is maybe the best blocker in the Rebels hangar and Tycho while expensive is probably the most fun ship to fly in the game. Just dont expect to be able to base your list around them, they are specialists and should be flown a such.

 

Last there is the Bomber... Which has the same problem as the current Advanced, you pay for defense and useless upgrade slots on a ship that can be ignored by most opponents.

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Power creep is always a concern and it has been the end of a few games and the frustration of many players.

 

Now how to judge how bad the power creep is is to compare older editions and compare them to how they fare with the newer editions. There is one thing that this game has going for it against the battle opposing power creep and that is the older ships can also get a benefit from the newer upgrade cards.

 

But to truly judge is to see how the first wave of ships are doing in compassion with the rest of the game. You still have the Tie Fighter swarm the strategy that has been present ever since concept as a Top Meta Tier squadron list. Also it is true you don't see say Rookie pilots anymore as other ships like B-wings and Headhunters come out but you still see Biggs Darklighter, a pilot in the core set, come up often in a rebel squadron list.

 

Yes there has been some power creep, the Fat Falcon has returned when the Phantom Menace showed up at wave 4. Both sides now have access to turret ships but even with the new big ships there are still weaknesses that keep them from overcoming all lists and still fall to ships that came before them.

 

So from what I have seen there is yet to be a wave with the rules "destroy all ships that were released before this one; cannot be destroyed by a ship released before this." so I will say the current power creep isn't that much of a problem.

Edited by Marinealver

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I think the power creep really started with wave 4, most evidenced by the phantom and the fat han.  Prior to that the falcon was viable, but not OP.  whisper with VI and ACD i think also borders on OP.  so i think there has been some power creep. Not as much as I have seen in other games, but some.  If we "fix" this ship then "fix" that ship, then "fix" this ship, then pretty soon we have to boost a ship like the x-wing that didn't need fixing until everything else got "fixed."

 

now, I'll grant you that the a-wing and the advanced both needed some help.  The y-wing options are nice, but come with some significant downside, which I think is a good thing.  So here is to hoping we can keep a lid on the power creep.

 

Because power creep is the death of any game.

 

At this point, I honestly find I really enjoy playing with just waves 1-3.  I have all the others, but when we play casual games, I tend to play with people who don't play much and are fairly new to the game.  Busting out dash with an HLC or a pimped out Decimator would be a little unfair and discouraging to my opponents, and If i handed them a tricked out list it is unlikely they would be able to get the benefit out of it that was built in there.

 

Plus, some of the guys I play with don't know the non-OT ships, waves 1-3 are more iconic and recognizable

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Except for filler ship like the Tie Fighter, Z-95 and prototype A-Wing, I can see that it will be harder and harder to justify the inclusion of 2 attack ships. 

 

The more the game evolve, the more we see high agility (cloaked Phantom) and guaranteed Evade (3PO, Autothruster, Ysanne). That is not a good environment for a low attack ship. If you can bring a lot of those, that's alright, because you'll hopefully be able to force your opponent to spend those tokens for an open late shot or forcing your opponent to roll so many time for defense that a bad roll is bond to happen. But when one ship attacking at 2 dice is the quarter/third of your team (like Vader before the fix), the rest of the team better deal a lot of damage per turn. It's not unviable, it's just harder to justify. Like taking a YT-2400 without a cannon upgrade.

 

A confrontation that would be laughable is:

Soontir Fel + PtL + Autothruster + Stealth Device (35pts)

Vs

Dash Rendar (36pts)

 

I challenge Dash to hit Soontir just once before going down.

 

So, for high cost/low attack ship, I don't think it is power creep to give them ways to deal more damage, it's keeping them relevant for their cost.

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I've said it before: the problem with this game is largely that the probability of hitting, and the damage done after you hit are dependent.   The more dice you roll, the more likely it is that you hit, and the more damage you do.

 

Ships like a-wings need to have a high hit probability, but a low damage output.  This is most easily solved through re-rolls or agility reduction.

 

e.g. a-wings and other two die ships should be granted a predator-like ability for free.  This will increase the probability of hitting without raising maximum damage output. Alternatively, an ability that reduces the opponent's agility would have the same effect, although it seems harder to justify thematically.  

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I honestly think most problems with low-attack ships are due to jousting or the related statistics rather than a more holistic view of the ship in-game. Like others have said, you can compliment a 2-Atk ship quite easily with even just a single 3-Atk ship; I happen to be fond of a Green Squadron A-Wing as support for a Blue B-Wing, as the mobility of the A-Wing combined with its higher pilot skill means I can usually have it flank a target and fire first, potentially clearing tokens for the larger gun, while the opponent is likely only able to return fire at the healthier ship. If the A-Wing gets damage through at all it's gravy, because the damage spike of a harder attack is often more valuable than the same damage spread out across more red dice rolls.

But, then, I also think the Prototype acts as a great blocker for 15 points, and I have no qualms about spending three points over a Bandit Z to gain a green die, Evade, Boost, and the best dial in the game. But it isn't a general-use ship like the Headhunter, and comparing them is unfair.

The Headhunter doesn't need any help; it and the TIE/ln have excellent cost efficiency in a joust, and as such they like to force that situation. I'm much more likely to fly head-on at a 36-point Vader or Wedge than I am three TIEs or Zs. A-Wings don't quite qualify here because they're more expensive but won't provide any more damage head-on; they aren't being played to their strengths.

What else has two attack dice? The Y-Wing is fine, it has always had a turret slot, and now the BTL-A4 title makes for some interesting dogfighting options. The HWK is even weaker naked, but the turret slot, crew slot, and cheaper cost make it a solid support ship in the right squad. The TIE Bomber was designed as the cheapest ordnance platform in the game, and while the vanilla ship only has two attack dice, there isn't a single piece of ordnance that rolls less than three attack dice. The TIE Advanced got its fantastic fix, providing either an extra damage or perfectly consistent damage on every attack. Even the Scyk was given access to Cannons through a reverse-Refit, so you don't have to run it as a 2-Atk ship even right out of the box.

I think the only evidence of "Power Creep" could possibly be the 4-Atk Phantom, and even then the only reason the Phantom is powerful is because it's been loaded up to cost over 35 points to ensure that 4-dice gun isn't easily taken down. But, the vanilla ship is really rather fragile, and I feel it's balanced as well as it could have been (I think we'll see something similar once people have a handle on the HLC Heavy Scyk).

I feel "Power Creep" isn't the right term for what's happened to the game; if anything I'd say it's "Skill Creep." The average player has been getting better, and the average squadron hits harder. Yes, Worlds was dominated by three kinds of lists, but you can't expect top players to steer clear of powerful lists. I think where we're headed is going to be great, and I'm really excited for the upcoming tournament season, becuase I think a lot more options are going to be really very viable. A lot of different builds are going to have ways to do appropriate damage or gain board control, and player skill is going to become an even bigger factor. Your ship selection will still matter, and you'll have synergistic options like never before, but you'll absolutely have to know how to fly them, because you can bet your opponent is going to have a strong list too.

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I really really think it is a bit early to jump to conclusions of power creep, even if the new Advanced is very, VERY good. We're going to have three entirely new ships for Scum that are going to put something really different on the board, and we'll see new roles and options for four other ships. That is an extremely large volume of material! If I'm correct about my observations we probably will see fairly similar list structure type that we will now with different ships. So in conclusion we won't see the end of turret lists, hammee and nail lists, swarms, Biggs lists or lists with Whisper, but I am very confident we're going to see more interception lists, high guns on small platforms(HLC Skyk, revised Phantom lists), more lists involving Y-Wings and especially the Advanced, linked IG-2000 lists (as in two with titles and upgrades galore), and probably a lot more lists with mixed ships (Scum will really shine here I think).

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The X-Wing has a similar problem in that it lacks a specialized role. 

The platform the xwing provides is a solid all around'er with no blazingly obvious vulnerabilities. The specialization of the ship comes from pilot choice, mech choice, and loadout. If you ask me, the xwing has more than enough specialization along with three immortally awesome pilots that will never lose their relevance in the game: Luke, Wedge, and Biggs.

 

The xwing doesn't need a title, not any time soon anyhow. They have a pilot for every situation so their jockeys are pretty much their title. 

 

 Pilots as specialization are certainly a thing, but that means the pilots have a role, not the ship. Having pointless generics means you still have a problem, even if the high-end pilots are useful. The "solid all around'er" part is precisely their problem. There's nothing that they are the best at for their price range. Z-95s are better fillers and B-Wings are better killers. Astromechs are nice, but don't provide a stand-out capability on their own and are much better at enhancing what a pilot is already good at (e.g. R2-D2 w/Biggs). It's something that even FFG has acknowledged.

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Tie fighters are still very capable ships even this far into the game. I think that is a testament to FFG commitment to keeping their games balanced. They excel at that far beyond any other game company that I have seen. We still see tie swarms do well in competetive play and they are still the best counter to the latest Rebel builds of Fat han/chewie. I think the current state of the game is about right where every ship no has a nance to be used and be worthwhile.

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