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Wayne Argabright

VT-49 at range 3 agility bonus WHILE using expose...

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when the VT-49 is at range 3 of an attack does it still get its agility bonus even if it used/using Expose?  xpose: Action: "Until the end of the round, increase your primary weapon value by 1 and decrease your agility value by 1."  how would this NOT reduce the range 3 agility bonus??? its still the same "Round" isn't it???  to me it looks like the agility bonus of one would get knocked back down to zero??  but i am usually WRONG here..lol  Thanks for clarifying.

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So the -1 agility from Expose comes before the Range 3 defense die bonus for ranged primary weapon defense? Or does it remove the first +1 defense die it gets (whether range, crew, or captain defense)? I am curious because that's the difference between one, two or three defense die on my build (Kenkirk, Ysanne, and Range Bonus).

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So the -1 agility from Expose comes before the Range 3 defense die bonus for ranged primary weapon defense? Or does it remove the first +1 defense die it gets (whether range, crew, or captain defense)? I am curious because that's the difference between one, two or three defense die on my build (Kenkirk, Ysanne, and Range Bonus).

It comes before the range 3 bonus. You calculate your agility value first, then add an extra die.

So, in your case, we get:

Base Agility 0.

Kenkirk +1 = +1.

Expose -1 = 0.

Final Agility 0, add range 3 die for 1 die total.

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So, in your case, we get:

Base Agility 0.

Kenkirk +1 = +1.

Expose -1 = 0.

Final Agility 0, add range 3 die for 1 die total.

 

 

The question was about Ysanne, not Expose

 

The result would be

 

Decimator agility = 0.

Kenkirk = +1 agility

Ysanne = 1 evade action granting you 1 evade token

Range 3 = + 1 defense die.

 

Result = Roll 2 defense die and you have an evade token.

 

Agility and range bonuses don't blend. Doesn't matter how many upgrade cards or effects you have on you that force your agility down. Other bonuses that don't have anything to do with agility will still work and be unaffected.

 

Read dvor's post. It is precisely and literally correct. There is no range 3 agility bonus.

Edited by LemonheadPrime

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Ok, I've got to disagree with dvor's post and here's my reasoning: In the core rulebook the roll defense dice step is as follows.

 
4. Roll Defense Dice
During this step, the defender calculates how many
defense dice to use and then rolls the dice.
The defender rolls a number of defense dice equal to
the ship’s agility value (the green number shown on
its Ship card and ship token).
The defender resolves any card abilities
that allow him to roll additional (or fewer)
dice. Also, if he is targeted at Range 3 by
the attacker’s primary weapon, he rolls 1
additional defense die.
After calculating the number of defense dice,
the defender takes that number of green
defense dice and rolls them.
 
So by that calculation a printed 0 agility ship using expose is at -1 dice. Now you add the 1 additional die that range gives you and you're at zero. The clarification of increasing and decreasing value in the FAQ shows going down to a negative and then then back up to zero.
 
Increasing and Reducing Values
When multiple card effects or abilities increase or reduce a value, such as
agility, ignore any “to a minimum of 0” restrictions until the calculation is
complete. For example, if a ship with a printed agility value of “0” and the
“Structural Damage” card uses “Countermeasures,” its agility is “0.”
 
However, I might be misinterpreting this and so I will be asking FFG this as a rules question to verify.

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It isn't an extra agility number added but an extra defence die. Agility is unaffected. An agility of -1 nets you zero dice from agility and you add one bonus defence dice into the pool (from range 3) for your roll for a total of 1 die. - see p.12, 4. ROLL DEFENCE DICE

 

If the shot is obstructed you get another bonus defence die.

 

Number of dice equal to agility value (negative value rounds up to zero) + bonus defence die if at range 3 + bonus defence die if obstructed = total dice rolled to avoid being hit.

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So by that calculation a printed 0 agility ship using expose is at -1 dice. Now you add the 1 additional die that range gives you and you're at zero. The clarification of increasing and decreasing value in the FAQ shows going down to a negative and then then back up to zero.

 
Increasing and Reducing Values
When multiple card effects or abilities increase or reduce a value, such as
agility, ignore any “to a minimum of 0” restrictions until the calculation is
complete. For example, if a ship with a printed agility value of “0” and the
“Structural Damage” card uses “Countermeasures,” its agility is “0.”
 
However, I might be misinterpreting this and so I will be asking FFG this as a rules question to verify.

 

 

And that's precisely what happens when using expose on a decimator.

 

The decimator uses Expose, so [0 -1 = -1]. Then it's rounded up back to 0. After the value (agility) calculation is made, you add additional green dice to the defence roll from obstructions or range bonuses.

 

Your mistake is considering that every green dice in the the attack calculation affects to agility. Range bonuses and obstruction bonuses have nothing to do with the defender's agility value, they are bonuses to the roll, and they do not take part in the above calculations. The FAQ entry refers only to increase/decreasing a given value, not counting its bonuses.

 

The defense roll is:

 

Base agility calculation (increases minus decreases rounded up to zero if negative) plus Range bonuses plus Obstruction bonuses.

 

Practical example: 'Wedge' using 'Outmaneuver' fires at a 'Decimator' with 'Expose' at range 3 behind an asteroid.

 

Target's agility 0 (base) -1 (wedge) -1 (outmaneuver) -1 (expose) = -3.   Round up to 0. Final value: 0 agility, thus, 0 green dice.

Range bonus +1 green die (NOT agility!) from being at range 3

Obstruction bonus: +1 green die (NOT agility!) from the asteroid

 

Total defense roll from the decimator:  0 (agility) +1 (range) +1 (obstacle) = 2 green dice.

Edited by Jehan Menasis

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So by that calculation a printed 0 agility ship using expose is at -1 dice.

No. It is not at -1 dice. It is at -1 agility. Which is not the same. Negative agility means 0 agility.

 

 

Now you add the 1 additional die that range gives you and you're at zero.

You do not add one additional die to the agility value. Just like you do not add meters to seconds.

 

You roll zero dice for agility plus one die for range 3 plus one die for obstruction.

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From pg 8 of the FAQ.

 

 

Increasing and Reducing Values   
When multiple card effects or abilities increase or reduce a value, such as agility, ignore any “to a minimum of 0” restrictions until the calculation is complete. For example, if a ship with a printed agility value of “0” and the “Structural Damage” card uses “Countermeasures,” its agility is “0.”
Edited by Marinealver

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Really, I'm not sure pointing out the FAQ entry on this subject is all that usefu. It certainly doesn't hurt, but the issue people have (when they have an issue with this subject) doesn't seem to be how to do the math, it seems to be that some people are not recognizing that there is a difference between agility and defense dice.

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OK lets try it this way. Rule Book page 12.

4. Roll Defense Dice

 

During this step, the defender calculates how many defense dice to use then rolls the dice.

 

The defender rolls a number of defense dice equal to the ship's agility value [the  green number shown on its Ship card and ship token]

This is where you calculate the total ship agility. 

Then

The defender resolves any card abilities that allow him additional [or fewer] dice. Note Dice not agility value. Also, if he is targeted at Range 3 by the attacker's primary weapon, he rolls one additional die. Again Die not agility value.

 

After calculating the number of defense dice, the defender takes that number of green defense dice and rolls them.

 

Now it seems to me a game that is very specific about dealing damage vs dealing damage card, at vs within, touching vs overlapping would know the deference between modifying agility value vs modifying defense dice.

Edited by Tuls

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Man, i think i have a decimator that has died to outmaneuver one too man times....

 

 

Great work guys, i don't know how you all keep this straight in your heads, but god bless you for doing so....

 

Now, where is that opponent that insisted i didn't get dice after expose and outmaneuver.....

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I acknowledge that my terminology was incorrect. What I would love FFG to clarify is if agility value is less than zero that it rounds up back to zero before additional defense dice are added. I realize that a negative amount of dice can't be rolled, but if I'm in the hole and more dirt shows up shouldn't I need to fill up the hole before I continue? If FFG has clarified this fact someone please point me to it. 

Edited by Laserbait

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I acknowledge that my terminology was incorrect. What I would love FFG to clarify is if agility value is less than zero that it rounds up back to zero before additional agility dice are added.

 

There are no agility dice. Only attack dice and defense dice. See rulebook page 3.

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 If FFG has clarified this fact someone please point me to it. 

Here you go

FAQ version 2.2 updated 9/29/2014

Page 8

Increasing and Reducing Values

Not already says value not dice.

When multiple card effects or abilities increase or reduce a value, such as agility, ignore any "to a minimum of 0" restrictions until the calculation is complete. For example, if a ship with a printed agility value of "0" and the "Structural Damage" card uses "Countermeasures." its agility is "0."

So you do your calculations and get your final value not dice.

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Ship's Agility Value = X

(Every card I see that subtracts from agility says "to a minimum of 0 (ZED/ZERO/ZILCH)"  And page 8 of the faq as stated before says ignore that restriction until the final math is determined.)

 

Defense Dice Modifiers = Y

 

 

X+Y = total Green Dice to roll

 

 

X and Y are separate variables that do not affect each other.

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Ship's Agility Value = X

(Every card I see that subtracts from agility says "to a minimum of 0 (ZED/ZERO/ZILCH)"  And page 8 of the faq as stated before says ignore that restriction until the final math is determined.)

 

Defense Dice Modifiers = Y

 

 

X+Y = total Green Dice to roll

 

 

X and Y are separate variables that do not affect each other.

Agreed...case closed! Agility and defense dice, different things all together.

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FAQ says ignore "Minimum of zero" until calculations is complete.

Agility is 0, expose is -1

Range 3 is +1 die.

(Agility)+(Range Dice)=Number of dice rolled.

(0-1)+(1)=0

Ignoring minimum of zero until calculation is complete.

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FAQ says ignore "Minimum of zero" until calculations is complete.

Agility is 0, expose is -1

Range 3 is +1 die.

(Agility)+(Range Dice)=Number of dice rolled.

(0-1)+(1)=0

Ignoring minimum of zero until calculation is complete.

 

CPTRhino, you are correct under the current FAQ. I would presume the reason this thread is not correct is because the last post you're responding to is dated January 2015  :D At the time a VT-49 Decimator that used exposed at range 3 of an attacking out of arc Wedge with Outmaneuver would have recieved 1 agility die for the Range 3 bonus despite the current math equating to: -1 Expose, -1 Wedge, -1 Outmaneuver, +1 Range Bonus = -2 Agility --> Thus "minimum of zero" triggers to 0 Agility.

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CPTRhino, you are correct under the current FAQ.

But he's not correct, at least not as I'm reading it. He is in fact completely misreading what's going on...

Agility and the bonus dice from range are two different things. It doesn't matter if you have a -5,000 agility score, the dice from range 3 is not part of the calculation for defense dice from agility.

Even if they were, they would be factored in after the final agility score is calculated, which means it's set to 0.

From the rule reference

4. Roll Defense Dice: The defender rolls a number of defense dice equal to its agility value.

• The defender resolves any card abilities that allow him to roll additional or fewer defense dice.

• If defending at Range 3 against a primary weapon attack, the defender rolls one additional defense

die.

• If the attack is obstructed, the defender rolls one additional defense die.

So the final value of Agility is set before things like range 3 and obstructed attacks are factored in.

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CPTRhino, you are correct under the current FAQ.

But he's not correct, at least not as I'm reading it. He is in fact completely misreading what's going on...

Agility and the bonus dice from range are two different things. It doesn't matter if you have a -5,000 agility score, the dice from range 3 is not part of the calculation for defense dice from agility.

Even if they were, they would be factored in after the final agility score is calculated, which means it's set to 0.

From the rule reference

4. Roll Defense Dice: The defender rolls a number of defense dice equal to its agility value.

• The defender resolves any card abilities that allow him to roll additional or fewer defense dice.

• If defending at Range 3 against a primary weapon attack, the defender rolls one additional defense

die.

• If the attack is obstructed, the defender rolls one additional defense die.

So the final value of Agility is set before things like range 3 and obstructed attacks are factored in.

 

 

Thank you for saying this... all of sudden my mine was blown thinking I was wrong.  

 

Just to make sure I have this correctly:

 

Calculate Defense Dice

(Agility+ anything that would effect AGILITY) + Range + Obstructed = total defense dice.

 

(0 + -1 Wedge + -1 Outmaneuver + -1 Structural Damage + -1 Tractor Beam....etc...) + 1 range 3 + 1 obstructed =

 

(-4) + 1 + 1 =

 

agility calculation is now complete

 

0 + 1 + 1 = 2 greed defensive dice 

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