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TIE Pilot

The X-wing Under Fire

252 posts in this topic

Unfortunately for the X-wing, a certain world champion saw a way to turn it into an amazing dogfighter. By purchasing a couple of Lambda shuttles (at the time mostly ignored by Imperials) stripping out their sensor packages and fitting them to Dagger Squadron B-wings (here being our foremost notable exception to the 2pt 2PS thing from above) he was able to turn that Achilles Dial into a huge strength. 

I'm actually the first one to post about this on the forum.

I saw how folks were saying that EU + AS was "Necessary" for the shuttle, and noticed it was so much better on the B-Wing, and coined the term "Hypermobile". I think I spelled it hyphenated at the start....

Chainmaille Smith likes this

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Excellent thread. Well written and some very interesting points.

I'd also like to see something of the likes of "options" rather than buffs for the X-Wing as well. Personally, I believe the best fix is adding a new generic pilot with an EPT. A Rogue Squadron Pilot card would make sense mechanically at PS6 to compete with Royal Guard TIEs and the new Mandalorian Firespray and it fits the bill flavorfully as the well-knowm elite generic in the most iconic ship in the universe and the game of X-Wing. I agree that a points cost of 25 for a PS6 X-Wing is more reasonable.

I also think if we were to have a RecSpecMech, it would have to be cost identically to a RecSpec. 2 points for 2 Focus tokens is extremely powerful, and while it does fit the "options" aspect of fixing the X-Wing, it is a powerful card with consequences that spans 3 ships. I guess it can be seen as hitting 3 birds with 1 stone, but an "RSM" Astro on Corran Horn would be extremely lethal, it would also make the E-Wing generics way better. And, while granting options rather than buffs still, we need to be careful when pricing the points on these cards because it either creates a card storage fodder or a rippling effect across the meta.

I'm not saying the proposed mech is a bad idea, its a fantastic idea. I would even pay 4 points to stick it on any ship with an Astromech slot. I just fear that 2 points would be too cheap and 3 points would be too stifling to try.

Edit: I also believe Paul Heaver took Daggers over Blues as a PS bid over other Rookies and Blues.

Edited by SpikeSpiegel

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Great post. lots of food for thought here. Bravo. Thanks for getting the discussion rolling. will check back in with some more thoughts of my own soon. I think the fixes for the tie advanced will shake up things quite a bit. The real test will be if the ship makes it into competitive 100pt squads and stays there.

Edited by The_Brown_Bomber

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This combo is auto-include, but also makes the Blaster Turret viable. 

 

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(I make no claim to this being a perfectly balanced card. I've priced it according to how Royal Guard Pilot did it relative to Saber. Personally I feel it should probably be either 25pt or PS5.)

Did you mean "Avenger vs Saber"?

Also, you're stomping on R2-D6's toes here. Not that R2-D6 is good, mind...

 

 

 

 

 

That being said, there is one advantage that the X-Wing has over the other two ships in its bracket: It doesn't have 1 agility. 

If we empower other ships in ways that punish 1 agility ships, then the X-Wings will automatically rise back to the forefront.  Accuracy Corrector and 3-attack secondary weapons spring to mind...

Edited by DraconPyrothayan

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****, I literally just started a slightly related thread focusing on how ships classes don't seem to matter. The X-wing is the Alliance multi-purpose fighter and should therefore be ubiquitous. I think the X-wing is suffering because, despite FFG makign each ship unique to reflect its character, their ship class doesn't seem to matter. Instead decisions seem to be made based on number of red dice and hull points foremost. The X-wing seems to have fallen into this trap where those facets neuter the X-wing even when its role as a multi-purpose fighter should make it fairly common.

 

One way to do this would be to create title or 'class' cards that are cheap that reward their style of play. Interceptors like, well, TIE/Interceptors and A-wings could get a bonus against bomber. Bombers/assault fighters could get a free target lock against capital and large base ships. Not sure what you'd do for X-wings to give them a general buff. Though, see the rest of this thread for that I guess!

Edited by R22
Boomer_J and DraconPyrothayan like this

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Did you mean "Avenger vs Saber"?

Also, you're stomping on R2-D6's toes here. Not that R2-D6 is good, mind...

I do mean Saber and Royal Guard, although my brain switched off for a second and forgot Saber had an EPT. Fairly confident in my stance on PS5 or 25pt now.

R2-D6 (assuming that's EPTbot) is unique, eats your astromech slot and charges you a point. Charging a point I'm cool with, being unique I'm cool with, but eating the astromech slot limits it a lot. Probably intentionally, mind you, but it only gets used on Hobbie so far as I see to give him stress EPTs like PTL and Opportunist (he's an awesome Opportunist at PS5). I think I used him to give Garven Decoy once too so he could give high PS X-wings offensive focus. D6'll still have a place. To put it another way, how much is he used on Red?

 

****, I literally just started a slightly related thread focusing on how ships classes don't seem to matter. The X-wing is the Alliance multi-purpose fighter and should therefore be ubiquitous. I think the X-wing is suffering because, despite FFG makign each ship unique to reflect its character, their ship class doesn't seem to matter. Instead decisions seem to be made based on number of red dice and hull points foremost. The X-wing seems to have fallen into this trap where those facets neuter the X-wing even when its role as a multi-purpose fighter should make it fairly common.

 

Dials and upgrade options do help significantly differentiate ships. If the B-wing didn't have a System slot I very much doubt it'd be supplanting the X-wing because its Achilles dial would cripple it. FCS and Adv Sensors are how it gets around the action deficiency a mostly red dial gives it. Keyan would be the only real dogfighter.

Edited by TIE Pilot

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Great essay -- lots to digest there.

 

I'm new to the game and it makes me sad that the iconic ships are apparently overshadowed -- from a certain point of view.

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If a Rogue Squadron title was created, wouldn't it be better if it had a requirement of pilot skill 6 or higher? Keeps it to the actual Rogue Squadron pilots. (Or list the characters that can take it)

Perhaps a title that does something then is discarded? One time use. Keeps it from being an automatic inclusion.

Another option is a title that provides a benefit only if it is included on more than one pilot. A three point title that allows you to ignore stress if rogue squadron pilots are in range 1, or something like that.

Final option here:

Rogue Squadron title:

X-wing only?

5 points

When attacking an enemy, reroll 1 die (or add a die?) for each additional rogue squadron that has the targeted ship in their fire arc.

Edited by That Blasted Samophlange

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Very well written! Excellent thread!

Agreed the X-wing doesn't need a fix, but more options would be a good thing.

The Flechette Torpedo is one

your recspecmech idea is good, maybe for 3 points like it's human counterpart?

The Rogue Squadron Pilot at PS6 with an EPT I would prefer to be priced 25 as well.

You can still take four without upgrades then, which is quite heavy in a 100 point squad.

With 24 points many will stack an R2 Astromech or worse, 4 times Veteran Instincts, on it.

Imagine 4 PS8 X-wings taking the field......

Dagger Squadron likes this

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If a Rogue Squadron title was created, wouldn't it be better if it had a requirement of pilot skill 6 or higher? Keeps it to the actual Rogue Squadron pilots. (Or list the characters that can take it)

 

The thing there is that PS6+ pilots don't really need any help.

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Outstanding article man!

I believe you greatly under value that Y-Wing boost in the BTL-A4 title and that this will prove to be an amazing upgrade to this ship.  It leaves the X-Wing in a very weird spot.  It is the titular ship from the game and yet is out classed by almost every other ship in its point range.

I believe MJ (MajorJuggler) has this ships value as 19 points for a Rookie pilot, meaning that it is about 2 points over costed.  I think in the early days of the game and play testing for it, the idea of 5 X-Wing on the board was something they were trying to avoid, similar to how the TIE Advanced received such a gross over costing.  So it was pointed at 21 point simply to avoid being able to field 5 as opposed to being worth 21 points.

I see nothing wrong with the 0 point upgrade that adds something to this ship, either 1 hull, which is what I would do, or the Barrel Roll action, making it a bit more maneuverable. 

I could see this being packaged with a HWK-290 fix in a 'Revel Aces II' like release that updated the X-Wing and added 1 attack die to the HWK for a point via a title card.  As Alex Davey himself pointed to these two ships as needing some love, I'll wager they are on the block for an update. 

admat, LordVogl and Punning Pundit like this

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If a Rogue Squadron title was created, wouldn't it be better if it had a requirement of pilot skill 6 or higher? Keeps it to the actual Rogue Squadron pilots. (Or list the characters that can take it)

 

The thing there is that PS6+ pilots don't really need any help.

True, but if the squad takes away points that could be spent on another ship for an interesting benefit, thematically it could work. A whole set of squadron cards for other known squads could work.

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One option would be a StealthX title card that allows the ship to cloak/decloak.  Another idea is something that enables the X-Wing to do a Segnor's Loop.

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I have a different idea for the Rogue Squadron Generic:

PS 5, 24 points, no EPT. But wait, you say, the X-wing generics need an EPT to be competitive! Ah, but there is one thing they could get that could differentiate them from any other ship in the Rebel arsenal: an Illicit Upgrade. That would make it completely unique and open up some interesting options.

Edited by Revanchist

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A new EPT equiped Xwing would be welcome, but I kind of like having the EPT be on named pilots. Actually having Rogue Squadron is more interesting then flying generic Rogue squadron pilots one through four.

The fix definitely needs to be something generic like a title or astromech. A new EPT generic wouldn't help the other generics.

I worry that giving them extra hull makes them reach into the heavy fighter roles of the B and Y wings. I hope that any fix would emphasize that it is a multi role snub fighter. Rogue squadron liked them because they could do anything they asked them to, not because they were tanks.

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Great post op! I think you are on the right track!

Something to take into consideration. Think of every single small base ship. Now there are really 3 types of ships. Cheap filler, maneuverable with boost or barrel roll. Then turret carriers. Every small base ship fits into 1 of those 3 types except the x-wing. It isn't cheap, can't reposition, or carry a turret. This is a huge reason for the decline of the x-wing especially the generic. If there were to be a rogue squadron title I would suggest allowing you to choose to add the boost or barrel roll action to your action bar. Now the ship doesn't need engine upgrade or expert handling to reposition. This helps it fit into one of the 3 types.

Also about the generics consider the 21 point rookie and the 22 point blue squadron. That 1 point is easily the best value in the game. You gain way more survivability and a better knife fighting dial! The generics have a very hard time competing against the generic b-wings.

I definitely like your idea for the rogue squadron elite pilot. I feel like it shouldn't be 25 points. 24 points would allow you to take some cheap upgrades like how royals are 22 so you can take 4 with ptl.

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Some great thoughts here, and I think a good outline of the problem. Riot (League of Legends) has had a similar issue, where they realized many of their characters fill similar roles in similar ways with similar strengths, and so needing/buffing in those cases doesn't really help. So instead they have been trying to make characters that fill similar roles play differently from one another.

(All of which is outlined in your article above. :) )

In wave 6, Scum will have 2 low cost "filler" ships that will be doing the role in different ways: the Sykc will be a glass canon with high agility- or will opt not to have the "canon", and will instead be a highly mobile swarming blocker. Alternatively: Scum players can use the Z-95 and play them similarly to how Rebels now do.

If we look at the B-Wing and X-Wing as filling the same Medium Fighter role, how do we make them different? The B-Wing has the hypermobility going for it. What can we do for the X-Wing?

I think adding yet another pilot doesn't actually help the problem- it doesn't address the question "Why choose a Rookie over a Blue, or 2 Bandits?" RecSpecMec seems fantastic (I want it!), but doesn't really get at the core problem of role differentiation.

Let me suggest that titles are where the solution can be found. I'd like to see a couple titles that would be different from one another. I have ideas, but let me throw put some parameters first:

Any X-Wing title should synergies well with the rest of the squad. An X-Wing isn't a support ship per se, but it's strength has always been in allowing its teammates to be even better. Any title should address the X-Wing's lack of mobility without adding to the mobility meta.

So, my ideas:

A title that let's an X-Wing attack any target in range 1-3 that has a red target lock on it, spending the target locks if the opponent is out of arc. (Note that it doesn't have to be it's own target lock that is being spent.)

A title that allows a reroll against any opponent that is equipped with a secondary weapon.

A title that allows an X-Wing to fire on any ship that boosts, barrelrolls, or uncloaks from or to a position inside the X-Wing's firing arc. (Call this the End Passent rule).

I'm not going to price these, as I would rather talk about their merits as a whole than their price specifically.

So... What do people think?

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Great job eloquently putting into words what most of us have been feeling about the x-wing Tie Pilot. I was thinking something very similar to AtomicFryingPan’s suggestion. A title that gives boost and barrel roll but you can only use one of those two a turn. So even with PTL you could not boost and barrel roll, but you would have the opportunity to reposition somewhat.

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So, my ideas:

A title that let's an X-Wing attack any target in range 1-3 that has a red target lock on it, spending the target locks if the opponent is out of arc. (Note that it doesn't have to be it's own target lock that is being spent.)

A title that allows a reroll against any opponent that is equipped with a secondary weapon.

A title that allows an X-Wing to fire on any ship that boosts, barrelrolls, or uncloaks from or to a position inside the X-Wing's firing arc. (Call this the End Passent rule).

The first turns X-wings into turrets, which I don't think is thematically appropriate. Likewise, I can't see the thematic logic of the second. The X-wing needs to stay being an X-wing really. The final one sounds interesting but I think it's more of a pilot ability than a title ability.

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