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Flick Mccom

Do Rebels ever win?

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I'm playing a four-rebel campaign as one of the rebels, Biv. 

We lost the first 5 mission (but got partial win in the story missions) and then won the 6th mission solely thanks to Gideon getting Masterstroke, in Loose Cannon with the ATST, it was glorious bloodbath. 

 

I'm finding Biv somewhat lackluster, got Bayonet, Shake it Off, Into the Fray so far and only his starting weapon, we had some lousy item draws. 

I had masterstroke in this mission as well but lost.  The only dodge rolled all game was by the Royal guard champion, negating an AT-ST shot, and the AT-ST got bleed/stun in the first round.  

 

How did you avoid the royal guards' stun?

 

 

Kill before you are killed.

 

I brought in two Elite Trandoshans last night, and they killed them before I had the chance to use them.  The entire mission was over after that.  Killing an Imperial unit before it can activate is HUGE.

 

IF ONLY!!!

 

I thought I would steamroll her, but the way the map is set up, the AT-ST cannot get away from both RG's.  The match went like this... Activated AT-ST and shot the left RG, doing 4 damage and 2 blast to the RGC.  Imp activates RG's, who move up and attack the AT-ST, stunning it.  Can't use masterstroke, because it is stunned.  RGC moves up and bleeds it.  Round 2, AT-ST unstuns, but cannot target RG's due to awkward.  Simply can't unstun, move, and attack.  Before I can activate Gideon to use command/masterstroke, the RG's activate again, end of story.  I knew after the first activation that this would be a loss... *SMH*

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Yeah, stuff happens.  That's why there's a lot of missions to try and balance out the whole campaign.  Some missions are slanted.

 

The mission I referenced before was the last mission of Twin Shadows.  I was steamrolled by the Rebels after beating them twice in a row.

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I see a lot of 'we have just as many reports of imperials having a hard time winning' justification for the balance of the campaign. That may well be true as far as averages, but I think there are specific setups where it isn't just imbalanced, it's actually fully impossible for the rebels to win. Let's dig into the details of my experience playing the game thus far. All three of us are experienced players, very good at strategy, all playing it to the max. Referring to the rules frequently to resolve questions, see if we can push advantages.

First, the setup. Two heroes, Fenn and Gideon. We have our +10 upgrades and guaranteed two activations per turn.

Now, the missions:

  • Aftermath (rebel win) - We hung around outside a little too long, since this was our first mission. But we figured out that we could run past enemies, and we just barely made it under the deadline.
  • A Simple Task (rebel win) - We really took our time on this mission, and cleared the board right before grabbing the adrenal implant, then ran through the late-deployed royal guards to the exit.
  • A New Threat (imperial win) - With only two heroes, we calculated that it was literally impossible. With three key places to run to, two heroes couldn't cover it. Side note: pretty cheap that the Nexu spawns right on top of the middle console such that it had to be defeated before we could attempt to unlock it. Then of course once that AT-ST shows up, you better be far away from it, can't be running across the middle of the board!
  • Homecoming (imperial win) - This one was quite close. because of some late-stage deployments which put four total imperials in that final room (and we needed to take it down to two), it came down to one final roll, where Luke tried to unlock his ship. It didn't happen, and time ran out before we got another chance. Very difficult, but possible.
  • Fly Solo (imperial win) - Because we lost the previous two missions due to deadlines, we only killed a Imperial or two then rushed to open the door. When Han was faced with all the enemies we had run through he died quickly. I don't recall if there was a final time limit there, so we might have done better to try to clear the board out more before freeing Han, but I hear that he would have had lower health. I fail to see how, when the Imperial knows the path you need to take, you can keep a low-health character alive. Yes, he can run twice per activation. But imperials can move X spaces then attack with range, and he can only absorb like three or four shots.
  • Target of Opportunity (imperial win) - At the beginning, when we were notified of the nerf to the Rebel Sabateurs, I was worried. I did a couple checks and realized that only best-case rolls would even get us a net effect of 1 damage to the door (8 health, 5 defense). We did make a mistake sending two heroes to the console instead of one to the console and one to the Sabateurs. But given the time limit we moved as fast as we could and were quickly all camped out in front of the door with Elite Imperial Guards and Elite Trandoshans sniping at us. The problem was that in four attack rolls over two rounds, the Sabateurs did zero damage to the door. Fenn did a little bit with an extra-die attack, via Focus from the Adrenal Implant. Our savior ended up being Fenn's Vibro-Ax, with its Cleave 2. When the imperials didn't retreat far enough after attacking, we were able to damage the door bit by bit. In Round 6 we got the door down but we weren't able to do six damage to the final target. Very close to impossible. Fully impossible if the Imperial player had been more careful with placement and just waited us out, preventing that Cleave 2.

Okay, so our record is four losses and two wins. Were some of the missions close? Yes. But I cannot think of many mistakes made by the Rebels. I've come to believe that absolutely perfect play on the Rebel side only gives us a slim chance. A perfect example is the door door roll in Target of Opportunity. We get there in mid-Round Three, and you can do the math on the number of rolls we'll have against the door. It's extremely disheartening to know that we can't even guarantee one net effect to the door for each of our 4-6 Rebel Sabateur rolls. Even an average of one net damage per attack would only get us part of the way!

In the case of A New Threat, I don't think it's possible with just two heroes.

I'm definitely a bit frustrated.

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I just completed the Core and Return to Hoth campaigns. Rebels won about 1/3 of the Core missions and probably 3/5 of the Hoth missions. Then they won both finales.

Both finales involved killing one certain unit, which isn't very difficult for 4 beefed up Rebel heroes. However, the Rebels who struggled so mightily in the Core campaign did win Jedi Luke with the last side mission and brought him in the finale - which was absolutely critical to their success.

Both finales only gave the Imperial player 2 open groups, which was extremely limiting. Most of their threat was spent reinforcing the crappy troops the mission supplied.

I'm excited for Jabba's Realm, but my groups are burnt out.

Edited by caseycheesecake

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On 6/10/2017 at 10:41 AM, scottnonnenberg said:

 

First, the setup. Two heroes, Fenn and Gideon. We have our +10 upgrades and guaranteed two activations per turn.

 

It has been heavily suggested by other on the forum to always play with 4 heroes. My group has moved to this strategy (often with the 4th controlled by the group) and it seems to greatly enhance the game play and balance. I think FFG has done a good job with the Heroic and Legendary options, but it's just not as good. Maybe you could bring in some extra (upgraded) hero's for the second half of the campaign? XP is easy enough to add retrospectively. Credits/Items might require a few minutes of rethinking.

 

Edit: Narratively speaking: I imagine Gideon and Fenn sitting down with their general in an office with glass walls and getting told that they need to quit trying to be lone-wolfs and start working with the team. Think 80's detectives being reprimanded by the chief, cigar and all. Chief says gruffly" "I want to introduce you to your new partners..."

Edited by VadersMarchKazoo

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I would agree that it probably makes for the best balance to play with four rebel heroes. But I want to add my experience thus far with three heroes has been very good. Our finale is still pending (Desperate Hour), but most of our missions have been close. I believe the overall score is 6 wins for the rebels and 5 wins for me (IP). The most recent mission (The Source) was not really close (IP victory), but that has been the exception vs the norm.

This is our second run through of the Core campaign (same three players playing three heroes) - the first time we ended with Last Stand as the finale, and it was close - but the Rebels won FWIW.

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32 minutes ago, totalnoob said:

I would agree that it probably makes for the best balance to play with four rebel heroes. But I want to add my experience thus far with three heroes has been very good. Our finale is still pending (Desperate Hour), but most of our missions have been close. I believe the overall score is 6 wins for the rebels and 5 wins for me (IP). The most recent mission (The Source) was not really close (IP victory), but that has been the exception vs the norm.

This is our second run through of the Core campaign (same three players playing three heroes) - the first time we ended with Last Stand as the finale, and it was close - but the Rebels won FWIW.

Sure, I think 3 heroes is doable and we've played a couple campaigns that way with fine balance. But 2 heroes would be a big ask. The problem is that even with the extra activations and health, the Heroes get spread real thin really fast. It really limits your options, and if one of them get wounded, forget about it. Plus, you have far fewer abilities to choose from, which is really the point of a well balanced 4 hero team. I'm sure there have been long threads arguing the pros and cons, but overall, I've headed the advice of quite a few players and just encourage my Rebels to take 4. Not only balance, but it adds a good deal of flavor. The one caveat is that that it can be tough for a new player to handle two Hero's. BUT, if your players are pretty new to the game, the IP probably shouldn't be out-for-blood anyways.

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On 6/10/2017 at 1:41 PM, scottnonnenberg said:

I see a lot of 'we have just as many reports of imperials having a hard time winning' justification for the balance of the campaign. That may well be true as far as averages, but I think there are specific setups where it isn't just imbalanced, it's actually fully impossible for the rebels to win. Let's dig into the details of my experience playing the game thus far. All three of us are experienced players, very good at strategy, all playing it to the max. Referring to the rules frequently to resolve questions, see if we can push advantages.

First, the setup. Two heroes, Fenn and Gideon. We have our +10 upgrades and guaranteed two activations per turn.

Now, the missions:

  • Aftermath (rebel win) - We hung around outside a little too long, since this was our first mission. But we figured out that we could run past enemies, and we just barely made it under the deadline.
  • A Simple Task (rebel win) - We really took our time on this mission, and cleared the board right before grabbing the adrenal implant, then ran through the late-deployed royal guards to the exit.
  • A New Threat (imperial win) - With only two heroes, we calculated that it was literally impossible. With three key places to run to, two heroes couldn't cover it. Side note: pretty cheap that the Nexu spawns right on top of the middle console such that it had to be defeated before we could attempt to unlock it. Then of course once that AT-ST shows up, you better be far away from it, can't be running across the middle of the board!
  • Homecoming (imperial win) - This one was quite close. because of some late-stage deployments which put four total imperials in that final room (and we needed to take it down to two), it came down to one final roll, where Luke tried to unlock his ship. It didn't happen, and time ran out before we got another chance. Very difficult, but possible.
  • Fly Solo (imperial win) - Because we lost the previous two missions due to deadlines, we only killed a Imperial or two then rushed to open the door. When Han was faced with all the enemies we had run through he died quickly. I don't recall if there was a final time limit there, so we might have done better to try to clear the board out more before freeing Han, but I hear that he would have had lower health. I fail to see how, when the Imperial knows the path you need to take, you can keep a low-health character alive. Yes, he can run twice per activation. But imperials can move X spaces then attack with range, and he can only absorb like three or four shots.
  • Target of Opportunity (imperial win) - At the beginning, when we were notified of the nerf to the Rebel Sabateurs, I was worried. I did a couple checks and realized that only best-case rolls would even get us a net effect of 1 damage to the door (8 health, 5 defense). We did make a mistake sending two heroes to the console instead of one to the console and one to the Sabateurs. But given the time limit we moved as fast as we could and were quickly all camped out in front of the door with Elite Imperial Guards and Elite Trandoshans sniping at us. The problem was that in four attack rolls over two rounds, the Sabateurs did zero damage to the door. Fenn did a little bit with an extra-die attack, via Focus from the Adrenal Implant. Our savior ended up being Fenn's Vibro-Ax, with its Cleave 2. When the imperials didn't retreat far enough after attacking, we were able to damage the door bit by bit. In Round 6 we got the door down but we weren't able to do six damage to the final target. Very close to impossible. Fully impossible if the Imperial player had been more careful with placement and just waited us out, preventing that Cleave 2.

Okay, so our record is four losses and two wins. Were some of the missions close? Yes. But I cannot think of many mistakes made by the Rebels. I've come to believe that absolutely perfect play on the Rebel side only gives us a slim chance. A perfect example is the door door roll in Target of Opportunity. We get there in mid-Round Three, and you can do the math on the number of rolls we'll have against the door. It's extremely disheartening to know that we can't even guarantee one net effect to the door for each of our 4-6 Rebel Sabateur rolls. Even an average of one net damage per attack would only get us part of the way!

In the case of A New Threat, I don't think it's possible with just two heroes.

I'm definitely a bit frustrated.

I'll try to explain these outcomes as well as I can without knowing a lot of the details:

1. Aftermath: is a bit Rebel-favored I think, probably because it's the very first mission that most people play. From what I've seen, if the Rebels have played it already usually win unless they get unlucky.

2. A Simple Task: Any mission without a time limit is automatically Rebel-favored unless there is some effect that helps the Imperials after a while (preventing the Rebels from healing after a certain point, or ramping up threat in later rounds). It's just too easy for the Rebels to go slowly and rest off damage after clearing threat.

3. A New Threat: This mission is very hard for the Rebels even with 4 heroes; with 2 it is impossible as you have noted.

4. Homecoming: This one was really close for us too. It seems like a pretty balanced mission from my experience.

5. Fly Solo: Another heavily Imperial-favored mission. Han Solo is just too easy to wound, and the way he is deployed you can't really defend him. You basically have to get lucky and have Han roll a dodge or two to win this one.

6. Target of Opportunity: You should use the pre-nerf Saboteurs for this one. In general, if a mission gives you units, use them in their original state. The mission was balanced around that state, and the nerf was targeted at either using them in skirmish or as an open group. So, as a general rule: if you pay the threat cost, use the new version. If you don't use the old version. If you use the nerfed Sabs this mission will be impossible for the Rebels (unless the heores have Tier-3 equipment that allows them to blow through the door by themselves).

Finally, as others have said, the missions are balanced best for 4 heroes. Any other number of heroes and you will find that some missions are very easy for the Rebels, and some are very hard.

So in conclusion: the missions that were close are the better balanced ones. The ones that felt impossible probably were, because you were using 2 heroes, because you were using the new versions of reserved groups, or because the missions are just very hard for the Rebels. That isn't to say that anytime a mission feels impossible, it is impossible: sometimes using the wrong strategy early on can make the mission impossible later. Early leads tend to snowball. Also, it's sometimes hard to tell how close you are to victory or defeat. I have played missions that felt impossible halfway through, and ended up winning anyway - and not just because of luck, but because I didn't understand how difficult/easy the objective was.

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@subtrendy2 Would really love to know more about how that went. What heroes you had, how you moved around during the mission. And most importantly, was it your first time playing the mission?

Edited by scottnonnenberg

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Two rebel heroes (Biv and Loku, I believe).   

 

Both sprinted to objectives, then met at final one.  

 

To be honest, it was a while ago, so I don't remember the specifics well.  But yes, it was both of our first times on the mission.  First campaign, even.

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