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Flick Mccom

Do Rebels ever win?

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It seems to suggest you're not

Where?

Several of the missions are on a timer and state so clearly in the information that the Imperial player is to read up at the start of the mission. These mission are already hard for the Rebel players to manage if they know they are on a clock and withholding that crucial information would make it impossible for the Rebels and boringly easy for the Imperial.

Page 1 of the campaign guide, about Hidden Information. The End of Mission event within the campaign rules itself is written just like any other event, you wouldn't tell the players in advance about the Lockdown or Fortifies events. To my reading, all you're supposed to tell the players is what's in the first section of the Mission Briefing. I agree it makes it very hard, that just seems to be how it's written, unless I'm missing something.

As mentioned number of turns is in the briefing...

It seems to suggest you're not

Where?

Several of the missions are on a timer and state so clearly in the information that the Imperial player is to read up at the start of the mission. These mission are already hard for the Rebel players to manage if they know they are on a clock and withholding that crucial information would make it impossible for the Rebels and boringly easy for the Imperial.

Page 1 of the campaign guide, about Hidden Information. The End of Mission event within the campaign rules itself is written just like any other event, you wouldn't tell the players in advance about the Lockdown or Fortifies events. To my reading, all you're supposed to tell the players is what's in the first section of the Mission Briefing. I agree it makes it very hard, that just seems to be how it's written, unless I'm missing something.

As mentioned number of turns is in the briefing...

So is what happens when the door opens, are you telling them that as well?

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So is what happens when the door opens, are you telling them that as well?

 

 

What happens when the door opens isn't listed in the mission briefing.  The mission ending on round 6 is listed in the missions briefing.  So, no you wouldn't tell them what happens when the doors open since it isn't in the mission briefing.  The rules are pretty straightforward about this...

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As to the OP, so far we've played 2 games.  The tutorial (Imperials won) and Aftermath (Rebels won).  I plan on playing the first side mission today, but so far it's felt rather balanced.  The rebel players destroyed their last terminal on the last round.

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So is what happens when the door opens, are you telling them that as well?

 

What happens when the door opens isn't listed in the mission briefing.  The mission ending on round 6 is listed in the missions briefing.  So, no you wouldn't tell them what happens when the doors open since it isn't in the mission briefing.  The rules are pretty straightforward about this...

I'm not sure what you mean - it's in the same section isn't it?

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So is what happens when the door opens, are you telling them that as well?

 

What happens when the door opens isn't listed in the mission briefing.  The mission ending on round 6 is listed in the missions briefing.  So, no you wouldn't tell them what happens when the doors open since it isn't in the mission briefing.  The rules are pretty straightforward about this...

I'm not sure what you mean - it's in the same section isn't it?

 

 

Yes and no, they are both in the small event summary box (this you do not read/show to players).  However, the ending on round 6 is also listed under the Mission briefing section (the part you read out loud) for that mission.

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IMO the Rebels win about as much as the Imperials.  We started a new Campaign last week and Rebels are currently 2-0 (Aftermath, Brushfire). Both came down to the wire, but the Rebels have a pretty balanced group (they have Diala, Wookiee, Fenn, Jyn), and were able to smartly balance the mission/enemy threats.

 

There are at least 2 other campaigns running among our playgroup and I believe one is 2-1, one is 0-2, and ours is 2-0. So combined 4-3 (Reb-Imp).  That's really great for a game where it is reasonable to be concerned about the balance of 4vs1.

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So is what happens when the door opens, are you telling them that as well?

Yes, when the event occurs, I tell them which of the two options I select and ignore the other. Is that what you mean?

 

Look on page 2. The second paragraph is under "Mission Events" is very clear,

 

"When an event is triggered, all the text and rule information within that section is read aloud and resolved, in order."

 

So when Lockdown happens,everything under it is read (except for the rule you don't choose). When Fortified happens, you read all of that as well, etc...

Edited by AlexW

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Rekindling this topic because the Rebels are getting disheartened. They've won 1 out of 5, then we restarted and they chose a different team and now they are 1 out of 5 Again.

My friends and I are old gamers, all in our early 40s and all with 20+ experience in tactical board games, so I am not certain it's merely a matter of player skill.

We believe we are doing things correctly. Though the last thing we were doing wrong was that all the Rebels were readying all their cards at Status phase instead of individual activation, but this error was in favor of the Rebels and the correction would seem to make matters even worse.

I am the Imperial, and I'm not even the best tactician of my group. Yet I have an 80% win rate. Some of their missions have come down to the wire, but still, Imperials win.

Anyone else having this issue?

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Rekindling this topic because the Rebels are getting disheartened. They've won 1 out of 5, then we restarted and they chose a different team and now they are 1 out of 5 Again.

My friends and I are old gamers, all in our early 40s and all with 20+ experience in tactical board games, so I am not certain it's merely a matter of player skill.

We believe we are doing things correctly. Though the last thing we were doing wrong was that all the Rebels were readying all their cards at Status phase instead of individual activation, but this error was in favor of the Rebels and the correction would seem to make matters even worse.

I am the Imperial, and I'm not even the best tactician of my group. Yet I have an 80% win rate. Some of their missions have come down to the wire, but still, Imperials win.

Anyone else having this issue?

We are. It's too easy for imps to swarm the board. You have to balance attacking/thinning out the enemies with the objectives and if you have the smallest amt of bad luck, you will lose hard. My wife and I have played 4 campaigns and the rebels never went more than 3 wins - forget winning a campaign. We're not idiots either, and I've read the rules a dozen times.

In order to have a close go at it, we're going to have to house rule it. We're going to double the credits won to heroes, cap the threat levels and reduce ally cost just as a start.

We just want to enjoy the game and right now we don't... Glad to hear it's not just us...

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Time seems to be the biggest issue from what I've seen.  The Rebels are failing because they are missing the deadlines.  For every "The rebels can't win" post there is an equal amount of "The Imperials can't win" posts.  This means it's likely an experience or gameplay style issue.  It also means things are likely pretty balanced.

Either the IP is too experienced and crushing the Rebels, or the Rebel players are too experienced and the IP gets stomped.

Or the Rebels are getting too tied up with killing their way through instead of focusing on the agenda at hand.

 

I'm going to be doing a campaign with my family.  I have way more gaming experience, and a couple of them tend to be less aggressive.  To give the rebels a little more of a chance, I plan to extend the time limit for them.  If they are winning easy, reduce the handicap.  If they are losing too much, consider upping the handicap further.

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Quite simply, if the rebels try to kill everything on the board when there's a time limit, they'll lose.

Most missions are set up so the Rebel's can win, with a round to spare, but only if they focus on the objectives.

In Aftermath for example, if the rebels try to kill everything outside, then rest to be full strength before they open the door, they have almost no chance to win. But if they move and shoot, and rush the objectives, they can win in 5 rounds. If I had my campaign book here, I'd count the squares... I'd bet with 1 move action per hero they could reach all terminals in as few as 4 perhaps.

Anytime the Rebels lose it's because either someone is doing something wrong rules wise. The Rebels are doing something wrong tactically, or the Imperial player is just outplaying/thinking them.

Luck really doesn't even have a huge effect, unless the Rebel players are getting wounded in the first 2-3 rounds.

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VanorDM, I'd agree with what you're saying if our trouble wasn't happening on BOTH sides of the table with rebels.  We both know how the mission shakes out (we've done them all 4 times now), we both understand the strategies and try hard to employ them - yet here we are and rebels don't win in our house.

 

And maybe neither of us are smart enough to play by these campaign rules set forth by FFG - we can adjust that.  My point is that we're not stupid, we know what's going to happen in each mission, and yet don't believe a game should require a doctorate in strategy in order to have a close match.

 

I think the primary problem (with campaign) is the power balance as upgrades come out and threat level rises.  The first few missions are always close (for us).  And Skirmish is very well balanced (mostly because the objectives are the same)...  In the later missions where really powerful imps can come out in droves with upgrades EVERY round.  And if you're trying to run a unique ally, forget about it...

 

Some observations my wife and I can agree on:

  • There's no way Chewbacca is worth an immediate 15 points of imperial deployment.  This actually shakes down pretty much across any unique allies.  Our record bringing allies to the mission is zero wins.  Playing with allies is a detriment, and it shouldn't be...
  • ANY time a hero can be wounded before the end of the second round is a problem.  Scenario:  Imperials had the double-tap card (for stun), 'Show of Force' and the trooper double-tap card on elite stormtroopers who also have the 'Combat Veteran' upgrade.  Wounded hero, round 2.  If you can't roll to test a door to progress the mission, you're stuck getting shot in the behind with all of those dice.  Even rolling straight 3 blocks won't save you...
  • When a character with only 12 health (Han) is expected to sprint across the map through an E-Web and 2 trandos without dying, it's a problem.

But it's like I said, I'm sure there are many of you guys who know how to work around it because you're smart and/or tactically minded.  My point is that we are also smart and tactically minded, and we can't make it work.  Shouldn't be this difficult after 4 campaigns and a dozen rule-readthroughs...  So, we've abandoned trying to figure out why it's so hard for us and started crafting rules that smooth out the futility...

 

:)

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In the later missions where really powerful imps can come out in droves with upgrades EVERY round.

The heroes should be getting more powerful too, the rebels gain XP at the same rate the Imperial player does, so they should be getting as many upgrades as the IP has.

Diala with Way of the Sarlacc for example should be murder to groups of regular stormtroopers, unless kept apart, which reduces their effectiveness. Gaarkhan with a couple of his upgrades is brutal. Mak can play long range sniper and virtually invisible, ect...

Point is, that you see as many if not more "How can the Imperial Player win!!??" type posts, so clearly the game is actually balanced, and both sides have a chance at victory, without needing to house rule things. That means something in your group isn't working correctly.

That said I do think the round limits on many of the missions are a bit too low. Were it me I'd likely of done something that makes the Imperial player more powerful after X rounds, rather then simply saying they won.

I do also agree that the ally system is a bit odd, because it does seem like the Imperial player gets more out of the threat then the Rebel gets from an additional character, and I've heard other people mention how bringing one can make missions harder rather than easier.

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Just to throw cats among the pidgeons, my rebel players have won every single game apart from the first one with three missions in the campaign to go...many of them easily.

Maybe im just aweful at imperials.

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I think it depend on the mission. That being said, in general, I find that there are more missions harder for the rebels.

 

After a campaign where the rebels won only the first two missions, we tried to slow down the threat increase and it somehow worked. 

 

What we did is, instead of having threat levels of 2 for Aftermath, 2, for the first side mission, then 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6 and 6 for the final mission, we went 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6.

 

The missions went roughly 50-50, and some of them the rebels won easily. The smaller threat often had an impact on how I managed my troops. During the last mission though, I still overwhelmed the rebels.

 

I try to be careful about tinkering with the game because I agree that the amount of posts about one side being advantaged over the other should be a good indicator of balance, but I don't experience it during my games. As much as I look on the forums I have not found the rule that I could have missed or misinterpreted. I guess more gaming is needed... 

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Played the tutorial then aftermath. I have a feeling the guy playing imperials is playing wrong tbh. We as rebels have read the rules (as pointed out his game he's reading first) so I may look at the video guide which I haven't watched yet.

Again stupid question but would like answering,

The imperials do they get two activations eg move then shoot, if so what is the point in stun?

 

They do get two actions per figure yes, they cant do two attacks though.

Stun takes away one of their actions and in the case of ranged attackers that might not affect things very much

 

 

Means they can't move and shoot, and the Empire really needs its mobility if it doesn't want to be Gaarkhaned to death.

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I haven't got that much experience, but my thoughts so far: I've played the core game campaign once as Empire - I won almost all the story missions, the side missions were, I think the rebels won most of them (though I did go easy on them sometimes when I thought a) thematically it would be nice for them to win ans b) they were clearly getting disheartened), and I'm playing the rebels (all on my own) in the Twin Shadows mini game now, we've just the last mission to go, and I'm 2-1 down (I initially lost the second mission but when I pointed out after the game that the Imperial Player had misread a rule making it much harder for me we decided I won).

 

So I've played one and a bit campaigns, I've played both sides, and it certainly seems easier to be empire - just block them.  Seems to me the problem is the time limit - as had been pointed out, the Rebels can't kill everyone, they need to rush for the objectives.  All the imperial player has to be is put his troops in the way, meaning the rebels do have to kill them all to get past (or kill enough that they can push past the remainder, which is slow and leaving them open to being easily wounded).

 

All the games (bar the final mission of the first campaign) have been close, but close with the advantage to the imperials far more often than not, including when I wasn't even playing as well as I could (when I was empire).

 

The final mission in our core set campaign was absurd.  It was the one where General Weiss is there in his AT-STs, and without knowing what would happen when the doors opened or they entered certain areas I've no idea how the rebels could have won.  They ended up with one player stuck on their own against an AT-ST that could shoot about 4 times per round while their friends had two very strong doors (and a lot of troops) to get through to aid them.  "Well, that one rebel player shouldn't have run off on their own" you say, but in many missions running ahead is wise, as you just need to trigger x conditions to win.

 

I'm sure it's all a lot closer on subsequent play throughs when people either learn the missions or have a better feel for what might be expected of them.

 

One thing that's very disheartening for rebels though is knowing, for an absolute fact, that even though you have a couple of turns left you can't possibly win as you don't have the activations, regardless of dice roll.  I've seen this from both sides and it's a shame.

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I think that many people forget about the incredible mobility that heroes are capable of. In our campaign, the Rebels would often try to outgun the Imperial forces set against them with predictable results. Remember that when you take a move action, you gain movement points to spend over the entirety of your activation. That makes it possible to hit and run.

At the end of our campaign my Rebel players were fearsomely equipped, but when they didn't move they died. The part that makes this tough is how some of the missions are so high stakes, like the Hero Upgrade ones, that learning curve can really take its toll. 

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In my experience, the Rebels tend to struggle when:

 

1) They don't take advantage of their abilities early and often

2) They don't take advantage of their mobility, including the ability to get more movement with strain / realizing that gaining movement points is the action, and moving is not (this allows them to "hit and run" more than they might realize that they can)

3) They don't buy gear / skills that suit their play style as well as counter the Imperial class type

4) They don't focus on the goals in favor of dealing with the Imperial mobs

5) They don't plan for door opening / round endings game changers, and do "dumb" stuff like open a door with the last turn of their last activation

6) They don't shift focus on goals in between missions. Sometimes if the last mission didn't have a time limit, they forget the current one does until I remind them

7) They get distracted by novelty

 

Most of these don't need to be focused on every during every single mission. But neglecting mobility on the first round of something like A New Threat is going to doom the Rebs, or being distracted by the cool factor of Mak's side mission is going to set them up to fail

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In my experience, the Rebels tend to struggle when:

 

1) They don't take advantage of their abilities early and often

2) They don't take advantage of their mobility, including the ability to get more movement with strain / realizing that gaining movement points is the action, and moving is not (this allows them to "hit and run" more than they might realize that they can)

3) They don't buy gear / skills that suit their play style as well as counter the Imperial class type

4) They don't focus on the goals in favor of dealing with the Imperial mobs

5) They don't plan for door opening / round endings game changers, and do "dumb" stuff like open a door with the last turn of their last activation

6) They don't shift focus on goals in between missions. Sometimes if the last mission didn't have a time limit, they forget the current one does until I remind them

7) They get distracted by novelty

 

Most of these don't need to be focused on every during every single mission. But neglecting mobility on the first round of something like A New Threat is going to doom the Rebs, or being distracted by the cool factor of Mak's side mission is going to set them up to fail

 

That's as maybe, but I think the list of reasons an Imperial player would struggle would involve playing very badly indeed, comparatively.  Seems to me from playing both sides (albeit not many games) that putting lots of bodies between the goodies and their goals is often enough to stop them having enough activations to do everything they need to do in the time limit.

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I think that many people forget about the incredible mobility that heroes are capable of. In our campaign, the Rebels would often try to outgun the Imperial forces set against them with predictable results. Remember that when you take a move action, you gain movement points to spend over the entirety of your activation. That makes it possible to hit and run.

At the end of our campaign my Rebel players were fearsomely equipped, but when they didn't move they died. The part that makes this tough is how some of the missions are so high stakes, like the Hero Upgrade ones, that learning curve can really take its toll.

Yes, but no matter how manoeuvrable they are if there's a squad of stormies between you and a door you need to open or an objective you need to interact with then you have to kill the stormies first. If the Empire keeps putting baddies in your way you run out of activations.

Edited by mazz0

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Nope. Not in my group. We have been getting our butts kicked in for 3 weeks now and it is getting very, very old.  (Nothing like coming out week after week, fighting against player quarterbacking, and getting crushed.)

 

Maybe it's just PC selection, IDK....but I am losing interest in this game...(If i want to feel like I did nothing I can stay home and apply for jobs)

 

 

***EDIT *** I lied...It's been a month.

Edited by loki_tbc

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