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Vexous

Impressive, but you are not a Jedi yet.

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Page 194,"That being said, many of the characters in Force and Destiny have the opportunity to advance their abilities and hone their skills to the point where they could rival the Jedi of old."

 

This brings a couple questions to mind for me.

 

One. Rival? Do they mean that as in RIVAL like the system would? As in, at our best these characters won't even rate Nemesis level but just rival against a real Jedi? Or, did they mean to say that with some training these characters could go toe to toe with a Jedi?

 

Two. Why not? I mean, what is it that the Jedi have that these new characters lack? Powerwise things seem fairly complete and doable from the movie point. Yeah, we're missing some video game stuff, but I'm not really sure I want to GM Starkiller just yet anyway.... Or will there be some kind of Jedi upgrade book coming out in a future release?

 

I bought Edge back when it was new, but the lack of Force ability caused me to delay my game until that aspect(a crucial one for me) was more developed. F&D brought the game fully into the playable zone, but it would be nice to know if theres more along these lines to come.

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One, I very much doubt they would be using the game term of a "Rival" NPC as some sort of analogy as to how a PC might relate to a Jedi of the Old Republic. That would be rather apocryphal. Also, some Rivals (NPCs) do actually rival PCs on many levels. That's why they're called "rivals."

Two, it's all about the experience. A PC with 1,000 XP under his belt could rival just about anyone he wanted to :) similarly, Jedi undergo training from infancy, so the heroes of the Jedi order (e.g. Obi-Wan, Yoda) have years (or perhaps centuries) of focused, regimented training.

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Methinks that you're being a tad too literal Vexous, at least in regards to the first point.

 

The sentence is a way of telling the PCs "while you won't start out being as badass as the Jedi of the Clone Wars era, you can eventually become pretty badass."

 

As for what those Jedi have that the PCs lack, Away is right in that the main difference is a lifetime of focused training.  Obi-Wan Kenobi as of TPM was probably sitting at +300 XP at the bare minimum, and was able to take advantage of an actual Jedi career and associated specializations that conveyed the full breadth of "Jedi training" to the point he had the skills to be a Jedi Knight.

 

Even at Knight Level (+150 XP over starting), most PCs aren't going to as nearly badass or have such a broad range of abilities that Obi-Wan displayed.  I've got a Warrior/Shii-Cho Knight PC that's at about 170 earned XP, and I've little doubt that he'd get steamrolled by a Darth Maul level of Nemesis, or even just an Inquisitor in a straight up one-on-one fight; a MagnaGuard he could probably handle simply because they're not as beefy (particularly after the nerfing the got in the Beta Updates).

 

So while the PCs would eventually be able to match up to the sorts of things we see Anakin, Obi-Wan, or even Luke accomplish in the films, thus rivaling what they're capable of doing, it's going to take a lot of XP for the PCs to accomplish it.

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Interesting. And when you think about the progression through the games it makes a lot of sense. Basically what I'm hearing here is we have all the tools to do the job, but a Jedi has been doing that job a lot longer and probably knows a few more "tricks of the trade" so to speak, that translates into more XPs. I can get behind that.

 

As an example, in Edge and Age you have a Force Rating of 0, in F&D you start with a FR of 1. Our trained theoretical Jedi might start with a 2. Probably one or two ranks of free Lightsaber training as well. Same talents and skills, just a few more freebies. Yeah, I don't mind that at all. "We all start somewhere, this is ours.", kind of thing.

 

Works for me. Thanks for the clarifications guys.

 

Bit of an edit here. The main reason I worried at all was that in some games I've played over the years your characters somehow get relegated to second class status. You're never quite able to rise to the heights of certain NPCs. Was a little concerned with that mentality being adopted here, but it looks like it isn't, so no need for worry it seems.

Edited by Vexous

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Bit of an edit here. The main reason I worried at all was that in some games I've played over the years your characters somehow get relegated to second class status. You're never quite able to rise to the heights of certain NPCs. Was a little concerned with that mentality being adopted here, but it looks like it isn't, so no need for worry it seems.

Actually, FFG's been really good about avoiding that, and ensuring the PCs are by default the most important people in the campaign.

 

WEG was able to produce a plethora of adventures set in the Rebellion Era (the only one that existed for most of the time they held the RPG license) that gave the PCs the chance to fight/undermine the Empire without any sign of the Heroes of Yavin.  Thus far, the only two characters from the films that have made appearance in FFG's adventures are Lando (Jewel of Yavin, and said stat block even calling out that it doesn't cover everything that Lando's capable of) and Darth Vader (Rescue at Glare Peak and acting as a deus ex machina with zero stats provided).  There's been no word on what Luke, Leia, and Han are up to... because for the sake of the campaign your PCs are in, it generally shouldn't matter.

 

Also, Force Rating 2 is generally pretty solid for activating Force Powers, just so long as you don't mind earning a little Conflict every now and again by converting those dark side pips into useable Force points.  And Force Rating 3 is probably the average for most Jedi Knights (i.e. not the superstars of the Order like Anakin, Obi-Wan, or especially Yoda), though again you could get by with Force Rating 2 so long as you're not super-dependent on using the Force to do stuff.

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Bit of an edit here. The main reason I worried at all was that in some games I've played over the years your characters somehow get relegated to second class status. You're never quite able to rise to the heights of certain NPCs. Was a little concerned with that mentality being adopted here, but it looks like it isn't, so no need for worry it seems.

To add to what Donovan Morningfire said, for your purposes the Heroes of Yavin are Alliance VIPs (okay, so Luke and the shot that took out the Death Star is a big deal :P) that just so happened to have the camera on them... Heck, from what I can tell the point of "NPC rules" with regards to their exceptions is because they're your/your PCs' big-time enemies. Edited by Chortles

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The main reason I worried at all was that in some games I've played over the years your characters somehow get relegated to second class status. You're never quite able to rise to the heights of certain NPCs. 

 

This is a perennial problem with every single RPG based on an existing IP, whether it's Star Wars, superheroes, Lord of the Rings, Games of Thrones, etc. Even some original worlds designed for RPGs *cough* Forgotten Realms *cough* suffer from this. Some games like 13th Age or Eberron were written expressly to avoid this syndrome.  Few players want to beat up jaywalkers while reading about the Avengers saving the world from alien invasion. 

 

The FFG game seems to center on the PCs more than most Star Wars games, certainly more so than the WEG version. With EoE you're not even locked into the Alliance/Imperial conflict by default. So far, they've been sparing with cheesy cameos and Mary Sue GMPCs. 

 

While the default game is set in the movie era (which will naturally be familiar to most role-players) it takes very little effort to set it in a post-movie world or a pre-movie setting like KotOR. My personal solution was kind of extreme but it works for us. 

 

Finally, in terms of 'power' the game is very swingy. We have two PCs who have more than 1000 xp, and both of them are weaker in combat than a starting droid or wookie marauder because they took non-combat Specs (Fringer, Trader, Scholar, Entrepreneur).

Edited by Maelora

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1000 xps and weak in combat is something I'm actually really looking forward to GM'ing. I hate forcing people to be combat monkeys. Make no mistake, my games have plenty of combat in them, but I always try to be multifaceted. Something for everyone is always harder to GM but I figure if the players take the time to invest in the skills, I can take the time to work something into the plot so they can use them.

 

Also, yeah, good to know I won't have to run for my life if Elminster shows up....;)

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I generally feel this system rewards a broad spread of skills and attributes.  Advancing one ability at the expense of all the others makes you a bit one-dimensional.

 

In general, be guided by what Specs the players pick. A group consisting of a Pilot, Fringer and Mechanic is telling you one thing, while a bunch of Hired Guns and Bounty Hunters is telling you another. 

 

I feel there's more to Star Wars than shooting stormtroopers, which is maybe why EoE is my favourite of the genres.  Not that the others can't be good too, but it's too easy to fall into tired old tropes if you're not careful with AoR and F&D.  

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I feel there's more to Star Wars than shooting stormtroopers, which is maybe why EoE is my favourite of the genres.  Not that the others can't be good too, but it's too easy to fall into tired old tropes if you're not careful with AoR and F&D.

In contrast, EotE can leave you feeling adrift and not knowing what to do, while AoR can give you some guidelines that you might find to be comforting. And if you’ve done one for a while, you might find it a bit of a refreshing change of pace to do the other.

It all depends on you — the players and the GM alike.

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In contrast, EotE can leave you feeling adrift and not knowing what to do, while AoR can give you some guidelines that you might find to be comforting. And if you’ve done one for a while, you might find it a bit of a refreshing change of pace to do the other.

 

 

Which is why I said 'it's my favourite' rather than 'it's objectively better'.

 

I GM all three games; in fact, some of the characters join the other groups and all the games are set in a shared universe with different perspectives.  For me, the Alliance/Imperial thing has been done before (notably in the WEG version), and so I found the freewheeling nature of EoE refreshing.

 

I totally agree that you should play different ones to have a change of pace.

Edited by Maelora

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1000 xp sounds like a nice goal. I had hoped to see a campaign that hit between 1000 and 1200. The two combat monsters in my group pretty much had my game broken by 400... at least compared to the two non-combat members in the group. There was an amazing amount of hand waving and accounting going on for me to get the encounters singing so I put us in hiatus mode until I can sit and figure out how to deal with it. So far I'm inclined to run shorter mini campaigns than the big, epic arcs but I guess we'll see what shakes out when I get the game going again next year.

Edited by GMmL

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On New Years Day I ran a one off for a group where they built characters at 2015xp over chargen, with 20k credits.  It was interesting. The system handled things fairly well. The big things I noted were the excess of Advantage (compared with Threat, Success, Failure, and Triumphs) and a fair amount of Despair compared to my regular game, which has characters at around 500xp. The scenario was such that they were routinely picking up 3-5 Setbacks for actions, with the worst kicking out 8 setback...player was able to ignore 6 of them through talents and felt like a king.

 

Interestingly, given that much xp, NOBODY built a true combat monster - the closest was a Toydarian Enforcer/Aggressor who was fairly scary (in many dimensions). However, with scaled difficulties and broad skill challenges, folks were still finding things that were hard to pull off. They were pretty amazing in their area of specialty, but that just meant I did not need to worry about throwing impossible checks at them.

 

I don't think the 1000 xp level breaks things much - you just need to make sure situations are challenging.

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So basically good GM'ing wins out? Good to hear.

 

I would not say I am a good GM - just an average one. But yes, as long as you are comfortable scaling your encounters, and understand your players, this system is strong and robust.

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The only issue I have is the cost of specializations. To be a jedi of old you really need at least 3 specializations. I think if the cost to aquire additional specializations was less that would make the system perfect for me. of course as a gm I guess I can do whatever I want. I'm thinking a specialization costs your current total specializations times 10 instead of total including one you are purchasing. Other idea is to do new total times 5. The other idea is to give the two skill ranks that first specializations get so the cost is high, but you get two 1st rank skills immediately.

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I have a player wanting just a few things from top rows, but needs to spend 30, 40, or more just to get them. Other alternative is to lower purchase of specializations, but raise talent costs at higher rows

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The only issue I have is the cost of specializations. To be a jedi of old you really need at least 3 specializations. I think if the cost to aquire additional specializations was less that would make the system perfect for me. of course as a gm I guess I can do whatever I want. I'm thinking a specialization costs your current total specializations times 10 instead of total including one you are purchasing. Other idea is to do new total times 5. The other idea is to give the two skill ranks that first specializations get so the cost is high, but you get two 1st rank skills immediately.

 

 

I have a player wanting just a few things from top rows, but needs to spend 30, 40, or more just to get them. Other alternative is to lower purchase of specializations, but raise talent costs at higher rows

 

 

I'd recommend just upping how much XP you give each session, or just giving a larger boost than 150xp when starting a knight level type campaign. As is, it sounds like you're just trying to over complicate the system for a single player aiming for a bit of power gaming. Shaving off the 10 xp per specialization really isn't going to do too much when getting close to a Prequel era Jedi in all aspects of their versatility racks up closer to 600 experience, and I'd really advise against dropping it to new total times 5 since it makes access too simple to specializations.

 

And honestly, I don't see much in the first top couple rows in many of the specializations that'd warrant even just a personal homebrew for only your table that messes with the way specializations are worked by upping relatively expensive costs of the bottom rows as is. A majority of the cheaper talents are things that shave off setbacks and the like and could easily be compensated by the player improving their character's skill instead. Only ones I could see that are mostly otherwise would be Strain and Wound increases as well as Reflect and Parry ranks. And messing up the system so the player has cheap and easy access to those will end up turning them into an over-powered combat monster that'll likely make any form of combat laughable.

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