Stolen Tech: An Attempt At Cross-Faction Ships for S&V

[SpikeSpiegel 2,077]

Stolen Tech - Unique

Title, Scum Only

Change the faction of this ship to the S&V faction. It gains the (Illicit Upgrade) slot. Stolen Tech cannot be equipped to unique pilots or pilots above PS2.

3 Points

Yeah, Scum, you get your Defenders, X-Wings, TIEs, ORS, Lambdas, A-Wings, etc. It's unique so you can't go crazy with your cross factioning, 3 points so that it isn't too aggressively cost, and the biggest price to pay is that you can't take named Imperial or Rebel pilots, or PS3 and up generics (to simulate the unfamiliarity/inexperience of stolen technology) as well as restricting access to Decimators and whatnot.

I'd love to hear the criticisms!

Am I crazy? Am I stupid? Is this a good idea?

[Red G 369]

I think 3 points makes this an inefficient use of points (since actual Scum ships can fill the role of a TIE Fighter, Defender, ORS, etc.), but it's a good way to go about allowing other ships in the Scum faction.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Red G

[ShakeZoola72 979]

Why do they need this?  Even with the extra points cost what is the point?  Why do they need to have theoretical access to everyone elses ships?  Are their versions of the rebel ships they are already getting not enough?  I am aware they are thieves but that is all they really are, thieves.  How did they manage to break into a facility and steal that top secret phantom or heavily guarded defender?  The rebels let them saunter off with an A wing?  I am sure one can make whatever argument they want to explain how the scum faction got their hands on that piece of tech but there are some things that are just insanely difficult to steal.,..if not almost impossible.  And even if it was somehow stolen...where are they getting the parts and maintenance crews to maintain their "stolen tech?"

 

It stinks and I dont like it...they have their own ships (as well as scum versions of existing ships already!!) and it should stay that way...they dont need access to everyone elses stuff.  I know everyone is all oooh aahh and wetting themselves over this faction (which I still maintain we didnt need, not that that is relevant anymore) but seriously...just NO.  Though I will not call you crazy or stupid for suggesting this...its just not a good idea.  Can I stop you and your group from doing this?  Of course not...nor would I attempt to if that is how you and your group wanted to play.  But I wouldnt allow this in my games...and I dont think FFG would implement something like this.

 

Is this an emotional argument?  Ill admit that it is...but i feel very strongly on this, I (and I am sure a good many others, though I have no numbers...they are welcome to speak up as well) HATE the very idea.  While your proposal is better than the last one of its kind I saw (Ill give you that it is very limiting...probably almost unuseably so) my main objection remains the same.  THEY HAVE THEIR OWN SHIPS...THEY DONT NEED EVERYONE ELSES AS WELL!  I dont care how good at stealing things they are.  Now be excited its coming like so many of you wanted and stop trying to find ways to work everyone elses stuff into this faction.

 

/rant over

[Dagonet 7,246]

But why don't you tell us how you really feel?   

There are some instances where I think a case can be made for ships crossing to the other side. For instance Rebels gaining control of the the shuttle Tyderium, or Imperials having a spy in a HWK. But most of those changeovers have no real use outside of scenario play.

S&V start out with Y's, HWK's, Firesprays and Z's out of the known ships and Scyk's, Agressors and Starvipers as new ships. That starts them out at two ship types less than the two military powers but there's a nice spread of different roles for their ships.

Outside of scenario play, I see no real reason why S&V need access to Interceptors, Defenders, Advanceds, current YT's, or indeed any of the ships outside of their faction.
It is the fact that all factions have their unique flavour that keeps the game interesting, to me at least.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Dagonet

[Cununculus 661]

I do not mind that much the 3rd faction gets some cross-over ships, though I must say ShakeZoola72 has a point.

They are, lore-wise, the older ships, like the Y-wing and Z-95.

They are the ships of the neutrals and pirates in several X-Wing/TIE Fighter computer games.

But really, that´s all they need. If allowed all ships we really go attack wing style, allowing anything and anyone in any faction.

A Phantom with Outlaw Tech? An X-wing with a Salvaged Astromech? A TIE Bomber with a Hot Shot Blaster?

How far do you wish to take it? I started a topic somewhere asking people if they thought they would see the card Temporary Alliance make it into X-Wing (link unnecessary, I do not wish to necro this one ). I hope it doesn´t and it probably won´t as FFG has already built in the possible cross-overs. Think of the Imperial and Scum Firespray, including 2 versions of pilots like Bobba. No other card needed.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Cununculus

[Hobojebus 11,341]

Pirates don't have the resources to keep ships like the defender running, if a part goes on the hyperdrive or you lose the tractor beam projector they can't call up sienar and ask for spares.

Same for x-wings really, scum use old ships because they are cheap, we really don't need one faction having access to everything.

You need to let each faction keep their identity.

[YwingAce 2,546]

Ships like the Defender, E-wing, X-wing etc. would never make it out of their guarded facility alive trying to steal. The Defender was so rare, the New Republic was surprised to find out more than 2 squadrons (24 fighters) had ever been produced.

[eagletsi111 1,113]

I like it, heck I have always thought it would be cool if their was some way to add ships from all factions to any other faction.   Just don't know how to do it.    In the books Rebel flies ties, Empire Fly rebels all the time.     It would be cool if they could figure out someway to make it happen.

 

 

Using your stolen tech Idea is a good start, but I would allow any faction to use any other factions.    My too cents

[ShakeZoola72 979]

I like it, heck I have always thought it would be cool if their was some way to add ships from all factions to any other faction.   Just don't know how to do it.    In the books Rebel flies ties, Empire Fly rebels all the time.     It would be cool if they could figure out someway to make it happen.

 

 

Using your stolen tech Idea is a good start, but I would allow any faction to use any other factions.    My too cents

Then why have separate factions at all? Everyone can just use whatever they want whenever they want. This would be impossible to balance properly and lead to complete list stagnation.

[mazz0 2,843]

I don't think you mean "Title, Scum Only", as that would only allow you to use it on pilots that are already Scum pilots.

[Forgottenlore 9,823]

Back before Most Wanted was announced, when we were having the big argument discussion about a third faction, I thought about something like this.

 

Problem is that, with Most Wanted, FFG have shown us how they would make an existing ship cross faction. They'll print a new expansion with all new cards and dials for the new faction. This is an interesting game-design exercise, but even if more existing ships become available to S&V we already know that this is not how it will happen.

[TIE Pilot 3,501]

Everything that should cross has been.

[Forgottenlore 9,823]

No, the YTs really should too. I don't know if they will, given that the falcon is soooo iconically rebel, but they should.

I really like the idea of giving scum the 1300, but have all their pilots just have the ORS stats, and then find another way for the ship to be unique for them. Perhaps multiple illicit upgrades?

[LeoHowler 475]

I don't personally feel that Scum should have more ships that have been released. The fact is that we already have a faction that is made up from four pre-existing ships that perform in a completly different manner than their Rebel and Imperial equivalents. I feel bringing in more ships like the shuttle and YT's will begin to get really redundant and I'd rather see new ships as opposed to rehashes of old ones, new pilots and upgrades nonwithstanding.

[Forgottenlore 9,823]

Sure, right now.

 

But in a couple years when the number of unique ships for each faction has doubled. Then adding a couple more cross-factions ships probably won't be a problem.

[Forgottenlore 9,823]

And really, named 1300 pilots with the ORS stats would fly completely differently to the rebel falcon. Give it some unique mechanic to distinguish it and a radical paint job and I don't think it would seem at all redundant or flavor diluting.

[SpikeSpiegel 2,077]

I understand people's gripe with Phantoms and Decimators on the Scum side, but if you paid attention, I specifically chose PS2 as the limit because of Green Squadron Pilots, Phantoms and Decimators and higher PS ships from falling into the hands of Scum. Also, limiting PS to 1-2 keeps the ships at a low initiative skill to represent the Stolen Tech as something unfamiliar to that faction.

And the flavor/fluff/lore wise argument is just as stupid as my idea, anything can be stolen. If they can steal the plans to the Death Star, they can steal a Defender, A-Wing, YT, Interceptors, etc. There are bothans everywhere.

Yes, I understand that people don't want Scum to have access to MORE ships, but don't think of it that way. Think of it as something unique to the faction that the faction is expected to do. Mechanically in the game Rebels and Imperials can't do that for a reason because they are defined by their ships and pilots, where as Scum have already crossed the line with HWKs, Z's, Ys and Firesprays, they might as well pose as a Rebel or an Imp and hop into a ship in a hangar and take off. If we've seen the movies and comics, that level of incompetence on any faction isn't rare and is one of the comical aspects of the SW universe.

[ShakeZoola72 979]

I understand people's gripe with Phantoms and Decimators on the Scum side, but if you paid attention, I specifically chose PS2 as the limit because of Green Squadron Pilots, Phantoms and Decimators and higher PS ships from falling into the hands of Scum. Also, limiting PS to 1-2 keeps the ships at a low initiative skill to represent the Stolen Tech as something unfamiliar to that faction.

And the flavor/fluff/lore wise argument is just as stupid as my idea, anything can be stolen. If they can steal the plans to the Death Star, they can steal a Defender, A-Wing, YT, Interceptors, etc. There are bothans everywhere.

Yes, I understand that people don't want Scum to have access to MORE ships, but don't think of it that way. Think of it as something unique to the faction that the faction is expected to do. Mechanically in the game Rebels and Imperials can't do that for a reason because they are defined by their ships and pilots, where as Scum have already crossed the line with HWKs, Z's, Ys and Firesprays, they might as well pose as a Rebel or an Imp and hop into a ship in a hangar and take off. If we've seen the movies and comics, that level of incompetence on any faction isn't rare and is one of the comical aspects of the SW universe.

I was paying attention...I was under the mistaken impression that the sigma was a 2 not a 3.  That being said...stealing plans to a space station and stealing and then keeping a classified starfighter up and running are 2 very very different things.  All sides could use the "stolen from the other side" reasoning as a reason to fly another factions ship.  The rebellion and empire are actually at war and are constantly spying on each other and trying to take each other stuff.  The rebellion was even successful in stealing a phantom (not that they kept it long...the good people of the imperial navy saw that it might happen and took "steps" to ensure it would not be captured.)  The scum arent really at war...as long as they arent messed with they are content to be left alone to their dealings.  Besides, what makes them so much better at stealing tech than actual armies?  Someone up above mentioned a scenario that could feature something like this, that isnt a bad idea and that is as far as something like this should go.

 

"Yes, I understand that people don't want Scum to have access to MORE ships, but don't think of it that way. Think of it as something unique to the faction that the faction is expected to do."

 

I dont see how we can really see it any other way...thats EXACTLY what it is...a way for scum to have access to more ships, almost EVERY OTHER ship in the game to be specific.  As for the unique aspect to it?  Are the illicit upgrades not unique (which through your card you want to add to ANY other ship in the game)?  Are salvaged astromechs not unique?  Is the S-Loop not unique at this point in time?  How many more "unique" abilities/upgrades does this faction need?  The rebels have only astromechs as their "unique" ability/upgrade (I am not going to count Huge Ship Hard points and teams).  The empire only has cloaking (which so many also want to give to S+V.)  Why do they access to even more abilities that the other factions cant utilize?  I'm sorry I am having a very hard time justifying giving a faction access to pretty much EVERYTHING.  It makes me think of the "Fun with weapons" episode of South Park.  Cartman is asked what his special power is and he responds "My special power is to have all the special powers I want."

 

I would also be concerned about the balance in regards to future Illicit upgrades.  They would now need to be tested on nearly every ship in the game and all new ships with PS 1-2 generics (most of the ships in the pipeline I would wager) would need to tested with all available Illicit upgrades.  This would add even more time to the process that so may are already impatient over.

 

You put some very good limits on the idea...but its still a bad idea.  We dont need to give this faction access to anything it wants.  As I said above this is the best iteration of this idea i have seen...but I still dont like it.  You asked for criticisms and I have posted some.  Take it for what it is.  I commend you for being reasonable about cost and PS abilities as limiting factors.  But it is still ultimately a bad idea.  This isnt Attack Wing...we dont need faction mixing here.

 

EDIT: Not sure why it boxed 2/3 of my post out...seem to have fixed it.

Edited December 19, 2014 by ShakeZoola72

[SpikeSpiegel 2,077]

Maybe I should be making my points more clear, so allow me to elaborate:

1: "Uniqueness to S&V faction" applies to the scum and villains to being the kind of people that they are: scum and villains. They'd have no problem trolling the Alliance or Empire, as we've read with the Zann Consortium during the GCW. I would have to disagree with your "as long as they're left alone they're content." Scum are filled with bounty hunters, assassins, dirtbags, desperate do-wrongers willing to go through any length to get what they want, and if that means hijacking a ship after completing a bounty or sabotage due to a late extortion payment or broken deal, I'm sure they will hijack a ship and maybe use that ship again later because, you know, it's a useable ship. Also, the whole reason for them being introduced as a faction is because it is pretty obvious that they are big enough of a threat to both factions to actually wage warfare to combat them.

Yes, any side technically can use the "Stolen Tech" philosophy, but Imperials and Rebels don't need to. Why does a Rebel need a TIE or an Imp need an X-Wing? Sure, desperate situations call for desperate measures and they can hijack a ship from one of their super-uber-extremely-more-than-the-death-star-top-secret-secure military base and bolt, but I don't think anything would've been more guarded than the freakin' Death Star plans, and anyone who thinks otherwise would be foolish. X-illions of credits worth on a project is probably gonna be more well guarded than some space fighter project. Right? My point in this paragraph (trying to nail two birds with one stone) is that we can make Scum MORE unique by giving them the dirtbag option of stealing a ship. I feel like my limitations on it are reasonable, which leads me to my next point:

2: "Limitations" are, I believe and as you've acknowledged as well, more balanced but not yet nerfed. First of all, it is a unique title that is unique to Scum using it only, so there'll only be one piece of "Stolen Tech" on the board and it will be on a scum side. Second, there is no need to fear Scum Solo or Soontir Scum or Villain Wedge or Villain Darth Va... I guess he's technically already a villain, but you know what I mean. And while we're on it, I'm gonna reemphasize how important it is for the limit to being PS2: It eliminates bonkers ships from falling into scum hands such as Decimators, GSPs, Phantoms, PS3 E's and Defenders, etc. but the biggest limitation of it all is Pilot Skill.

If you wanna roll like a villain you gotta take risks like a villain. I disagree with you and feel that you are suffering from Attack Wng-phobia. This is nothing like Attack Wing. We're not putting Wedge in a Phantom or Vader in a Falcon and saying "hurr-durr" while bucking our teeth and going cross eyed. "Stolen Tech" is offering Scum players to gamble their points on an X-Wing, B-Wing, ORS, TIE fighter, Bomber, Interceptor, Lambda. Is it worth it to pay 25 points for a stolen Blue Squadron Pilot or 15 points for a stolen Academy TIE? We don't know! But having that option answers the dilemma of why Scum dont have YTs and it can fill the thematic void of "uglies" that are a thing in the SW universe, we don't need to design a whole new model to see "ugly" TIEs or X's when they can just steal one and throw an Illicit Upgrade on it.

No, we do not know what Illicit Upgrades are in our stars, yet, but until then, there is nothing extremely broken about them that can be thrown onto any stolen ship that make it super broken. Maybe in the future there will be something more powerful making Stolen Tech a card worth taking, but Scum players will know and understand that taking that combo will cost them a premium, much like how Rebels pay a premium for turrets and Imps pay a premium for cloaking actions. So were not just "giving this faction anything it wants" but rather giving it a risky option unique to this faction and letting players determine whether or not it is worth it. I mean, Greedo in a B-Wing? That sounds freakin cool.

Yes, I did ask for criticisms and I appreciate it very much. It allows me to reconsider my ideas and do my best to thorouly justify and explain my reasoning and purposes behind them. Again, I understand the gripe and hesitancy towards "Stolen Tech," but I still think it is a pretty reasonable unique ability-granting upgrade that will make Scum feel more Scummy and Villainy-y. I also apologize if I sound a little stand off-ish, I didn't realize how passionate I was for this piece as you were against it.

[ShakeZoola72 979]

This seems to have gotten lost in all the exciting hub bub around the Imperial epic...that and I feel this was worth waiting to get home to respond to...I hate my phone.

 

I would disagree that they were added because they could go toe to toe with the empire or the rebellion or that they are some massive military threat.  The Zetas dont go toe to toe with the Mexican Army, the Triads dont make overt moves against the PLA, and the Yakuza dont wage war against the JDF.  Skirmishes may happen but not too much more...the criminal element is most effective when it isnt openly seen doing its work and going toe to toe in open combat with the military is a good way to get and remain on the radar.  But in the end, as I said before, lore arguments are futile...you or I could pull out any reason why your idea would or wouldnt work.

 

Your limitations are sound as I have said before and do a good job of making this idea more palatable.  But even with your limitations I dont think this belongs in the game.  No faction should have this kind of access to the other factions stuff, even in the very limited form you have described.  I understand your limitations, i actually like the limitations...I just dont like the idea of stolen ships AT ALL and no amount of limitations will make it palatable to me (and more than a few others I would wager.)

 

I am pretty certain the S+V faction not having the YT 1300 is temporary.  I would not be at all surprised if they worked it into the faction the same way the worked the Slave 1 and Y wing in...through cards unique to the faction with their own pilot abilities and stats (the YT should be based on the ORS...but I dont think there is any disagreement there.)

 

My gripe on the "uniqueness" angle is that even as it stands no other faction has as many unique features as S+V thus far.  I dont feel they need yet another one especially one that has the potential to allow them to access other factions (ie the rebellions) unique aspects.  They have enough as it is.  More ships will enter the fray for them in the near future we will just have to wait and see what they are.

 

In closing, I dont think you were the least bit stand offish.  I respect your opinion and your passion for it.  Its nice to spar with someone just as passionate who will listen to and respond to my arguments in a respectful and thoughtful manner.  You arent going to change my mind and I am not going to change yours...but I think we both better understand both ours and the opposing positions better, and that is what these types of exchanges should be about.

 

(Maybe next time we could discuss why Cowboy Bebop isnt all that awesome =P ... never saw what everyone else did in that anime!)