Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Jedhead

Hero Types and Roles

Recommended Posts

So today I was thinking about the heroes that have been released thus far for our beloved game, and because I like to categorize things, I came up with some basic archetypes of heroes that I see as existing in Diskwars.  You will find the heroes sorted according to my classifications below.  I warn you, it will be long (and quite possibly boring), but I was having fun theory-crafting, so if nobody reads it, I don’t care.  It was still fun to write.   :) 

 

Before I move into the categories themselves, a few disclaimers: 

 

* I assigned heroes to categories based on what I felt was their core attribute, or their central purpose.  To put it another way, what do you think of first when the hero pops into your head? 

 

If I say “Teclis”—everyone would say, “Magic.”  “Azhag”—everyone thinks, “I don’t want that guy pinning me.”  “Volkmar”—“That guy sucks!”  (Kidding—sort of—I put him in as support, read on to see more on that below).

 

* When I first started this endeavor, I established a set of hero “benchmarks” in order to aid me in making comparisons.  A hero that meets my “baseline statistics” has at least 5 attack, 4 counter, 5 toughness, and one stamina.  Anything above baseline is obviously better, while stats below baseline fail to measure up.  Magic three would be the hero baseline for magic attacks, and as far as movement goes, I set the baseline at five flips for a small disk, four for a medium, and three for a large.  If you disagree with this analysis, too bad, since I wrote it and you didn't :P.  Seriously, though, what do other people think of this as a hero baseline?

 

* Some heroes clearly overlap categories a bit, and I note that in my discussion at times, but not always.  To echo my initial point, I placed them in categories based on what I feel is their seminal trait.  Think they should go somewhere else?  Let me know!

 

So without further ado, I present the first of my categories:

 

1.  “Impact” Heroes.

 

The heroes I have termed as “impact” heroes do not necessarily have the impact keyword, rather, they are the heroes who give you an utter thrill of satisfaction any time you flip onto an enemy (and, preferably, as many enemies as possible!)  These heroes rely on the charge to gain an edge; without it, they are noticeably weaker, so their “impact” on the game swings wildly depending on whether or not they can secure a critical pin.  Their attack stats tend to be above the baseline, but their counter values or toughness tend to be at or below it.  Consequently, they really want to pin you rather than the other way around, which lends a feeling of “weight” to their pinning flip.  When they catch you, there is a sense of finality, and the reverse can also be said; if these guys are the centerpiece of your army and they get pinned early, your heart sinks at the impact on your game plan. 

 

Azhag the Slaughterer: 

 

I will start with Azhag, as he epitomizes the concept of the “impact” hero.  His attributes are well known: Frenzy. Large Disk.  Seven attack.  Flying.  SCARY.  If he pins your army (or even just a chunk of it), you weep, and most likely lose the game as well.  If you pin him, you feel a sense of relief, and may want to laugh in your opponent’s face (unless he has intimidate handy, which with Azhag, he probably should).  At any rate, Azhag is a highly effective “impact” unit, capable of smearing an entire force across the board.  The flip side (no pun intended)?  His counter and toughness are both baseline, which means that if you can pin him, he isn’t really that scary after all.  Even then, Azhag seems to me to be one of the strongest impact heroes in the game: his extra wound capacity makes him tough to remove quickly, so he has the potential to hang around and fight his way clear of a scrum with some support…and you better not be standing too close to him if he does!

 

Lokhir Fellheart:

 

Lokhir is another good example of an impact hero.  Fear coupled with frenzy is simply an incredible pairing (imagine this on Azhag for a moment…… :huh:.......... :o !!!!!!!!!!!.....okay, come back to reality and be sad or relieved as appropriate).  Lokhir’s healthy attack rating also makes him a beast if he manages to pin an enemy or two.  His biggest limitation in this regard is obviously his small size, as he is generally unable to pull of the holy grail of pins, but he still forces your opponent to split up a bit or risk losing multiple units in one nasty skirmish.  As with the rest of the impact heroes, his baseline counter is nothing to write home about, and his low toughness limits him even more.  If he is pinned early by a unit with decent statistics, there is a good chance he may never fight his way clear, allowing you to contemplate in complete safety whether or not Lokhir is actually from Game of Thrones or from Warhammer…seriously, I can picture this disk screaming, “Did you pay the IRON price for that?!” as Theon cowers away from him.

 

Grimgor Ironhide: 

 

Grimgor’s powerful, swift attack and weaker counter make him feel like a “need-to-pin” kind of guy, and his extra stamina plus swift means you are in trouble if he pins you.  He has less impact than the rest of our heavy hitters in many ways, but you still don’t want him on top of your disks!  His low toughness definitely comprises his greatest weakness, though this is compensated by his stamina value of two.  He is probably the weakest member of this group thematically speaking, as his role in game fits the “impact” hero style the least.  Like the others discussed here, though, the key point is that his baseline counter value means you can pin him with something tough and ride out the storm.  I see that as the essential dichotomy he faces in every game: pin him early, and he stinks, but if he runs around and pins you, it is very irritating! 

 

Grom the Paunch: 

 

In some ways, Grom feels like the ultimate impact disk due to his high value on the charge and utter worthlessness when he gets pinned.  Though he lacks the sheer army-slaughtering capabilities of Azhag, he packs a good impact of three, and also sports relentless for even more fun.  Pair that with high movement value and decent attack, and you have the recipe for a disk that is pretty fun to throw around on the charge…Simply put, he is countless pounds of obese, chariot-mounted goblin plowing into you.  That said, he looks like the worst hero in the game if he gets pinned early on, as his counter strength is actually below baseline.  He’s not even hacking his way free of Marienburg Swordsmen without some help.

 

Archaon the Everchosen: 

 

Archaon is actually a well-rounded combat disk, and can hold his own when pinned more successfully than the fellows mentioned above due to his arcane damage.  That said, when I think Archaon, I think, “please no multiple-pin charges from this guy.”  If I can isolate him and pin him, I feel much better, but if he bears down on my front line and throws both impact and arcane damage everywhere…well, it just feels like someone peed on my carpet, and there’s nothing I can do about it.  Like most of the “impact” heroes, he is at his best when he smashes into multiple enemies, and at his worst when pinned by a tough disk that can hold him down for a bit.  Overall, he is a solid choice if you want to run over some enemies, and a disk that always feels much less valuable when he is pinned. 

 

Final thoughts on “impact” heroes in general:

 

First I wanted to mention a general fact: I realize that most heroes don’t want to get pinned, so the fact that these guys are less effective when pinned is no surprise.  These heroes, however, combine their great value while pinning with the fact that they really don’t want to get pinned.  These heroes generally benefit from pinning many enemies, and shudder at the though of being pinned early, as it effectively removes them from the game.  I find Grimgor to be the weakest fit thematically with the category, but his devaluation while pinned is so rapid that I put him in anyway. 

 

Another observation: I think it is nice to note that the orcs are heavy in the impact hero department.  It just feels appropriate to me; it’s only a proper fight when you get “stuck in wiv da boyz” and smash some face!  The category is filled out with other destruction heroes as well—again, this feels appropriate, as they have the biggest, scariest, meanest back-stories and appearances. 

 

I will put up two more posts soon, each one containing two more categories of heroes with discussions on each disk and why it fits the theme.  Drop me some comments below if you feel so inclined!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm back with yet another over-long analysis of heroes!  This installment includes my next two categories:  Hunter-Killers, and Tanks.

 

2. Hunter-Killers

 

These heroes have two main characteristics as I see them: First, they boast above-baseline stats on both attack and defense, and second, they also feature irritating abilities that make them a pain to pin as well.  This gives them the ability to go one-on-one with almost any opponent whether they are pinned or pinning, and ensures they will get in their licks even if they don’t deliver on the charge.

 

I though about calling this group “challengers,” or “duelists,” or something similar, as they excel at destroying high-value targets.  What makes them different from the “impact” heroes is the fact that this bunch can also dish out the pain from the bottom of the pile as well.  Basically, they go for the throat of your best unit, and will often manage to kill the other troops you send to stop them, too, even if you pin them!  If I had to create a code for this bunch of heroes it would be, “I am taking you down with me.”

 

Chakax: 

 

He has above-baseline combat stats, the hallmark of any hunter-killer, but what really emphasizes this role is his combination of relentless and his combat ability.  He is obviously intended to go after the enemy champion as hard and as fast as he can.  Also, he deserves super-bonus points since his artwork totally matches his role and his ability—you can almost hear him calling out the enemy champion and demanding to meet in single combat!  I like him as the poster child of this category of hero, so I ran him first to explain what a “typical” hunter-killer looks like: above-baseline combat stats, and swift or some other ability that helps them when an opponent engages them.

 

Grombrindal:

 

Grombrindal has frenzy on a small base, which isn’t ideal, but it’s really just gravy; when it is paired with his above-baseline attack it makes him good at eviscerating enemies while pinning, and if you get more than one at a time, so much the better!  

 

His stats (and his below-baseline counter) make him seem like an ideal candidate for the impact hero ranks.  What separates him from the impact heroes, though, is his ability.   When paired with stalwart, his ability means that he is actually capable of essentially dealing above-baseline counter damage (while also smacking around anyone underneath him).  Thus, Grombrindal is capable of shaking off enemies that pin him, making him less reliant on the charge.  He is unlikely to be pinned for long, so he is a good candidate for dealing with opposing heavies, as he will not simply be left to rot underneath an enemy rank-and-filer.

 

Tyrion:  

 

Tyrion, like our other hunter-killers, boasts above-baseline stats standard.  That alone qualifies him for the ranks of hunter-killer, able to pursue and pin enemies and defend himself as well while he deals his damage.

 

Tyrion also features a wildly unpredictable ability that give him a chance of insta-wounding an opponent in a duel.  Although his ability is random, it does help dissuade an opponent’s cronies from piling on too eagerly when you pull of a good charge/pin, and gives him the chance of pulling out some truly epic assaults single-handedly.  That said, the lack of guaranteed results on his ability makes him the least threatening out of this group, in my opinion, but they are a pretty scary bunch in single combat!  Overall, Tyrion is a tenacious attacker and defender that will usually deal out his fair share of wounds in close combat—not a guy you want on top of you. 

 

Valkia:

 

While Valkia does no sport the above-baseline stats of the other heroes in this category, she definitely has the flavor of a hunter-killer, and you know she will almost always be empowered.  The fact that she has flying is a nice way of getting past enemy chaff and dropping in on a juicy target, which further compliments her role as a seeker missile. 

 

Once empowered, she is tough to wound, and will throw out high-strength swift attacks in both directions.  She can chase heroes down, and kill them and the troops sent to stop her.  That is the definition of hunter-killer.  She feels the most like Chakax, and I would say she and he are the pure form of the breed, with Tyrion and Grombrindal being the next tier (thematically, not necessarily in terms of effectiveness). 

 

In summation, these heroes have one concern—getting into an important scrap and then holding on to drag down the enemy champion.  They don’t help buff the rest of your army, but rather act as the bulldog that goes for the throat and hangs on to the bitter end.  I think you could easily throw Archaon in this group as well, especially since his ability is a nice anti-pin bonus, but as I mentioned above, I feel his defining characteristic is different.  With Archaon, the fact that I never want him rolling in and scoring a mega-impact on my units was the first thing that came to mind, so I placed him with the impact heroes instead.  

 

3. Tanks

 

This category of heroes is full of disks that are simply tough to kill.  High toughness, swift counter, or special abilities make them a pain to bring down at times, and they tend to showcase defensive abilities or statistics.  They don’t always have the best movement or above-baseline stats in every area…but they don’t die easily!

 

Throgrim: 

 

Magic resistance, six toughness, extra stamina, five counter…overall, not a good guy to pin, and a tough guy to kill under any circumstances.  The fact that he gets really angry when you kill his friends just makes him even more fun, and confirms the fact that deep down he is a soft-hearted guy with protective instincts…or maybe a raging madman who wants to rip your face off if you are on his ****-list.  His book of grudges is totally awesome, by the way.  Who is brazen enough to carry around a giant list of everyone they hate, just waiting for the day they meet them so they can punch them in the face?  THIS GUY.  His health will help make sure he lives long enough to do it, too.  When I think Throgrim, I think of a lot of dwarf that you have to chew through to put him down. 

 

Luthor: 

 

Luthor has pretty good stats.  Luthor has pretty sweet armor (love that artwork).  But that is just the beginning.  When Luthor is empowered, he turns into a raging hate-machine of frenzy that shrugs off enemy attacks like they were unwanted PDA from a girlfriend he doesn’t really like.  If you run him with High Elves you can toss shield of faith and shield of saphery on him for added lulz.  I’m not saying it’s a perfect competitive build, but tell me you don’t want to try it once…

 

Isabella: 

 

Isabella has good combat stats and mobile magic, so she is pretty effective as far as combat goes. So why do I think of her as a tank instead of a hunter-killer?  Well, for one, she doesn’t counter that well, but second…she regenerates, and you basically have to completely kill her in one round to make certain she won’t just continually bounce back. 

 

Speaking anecdotally from games I have played recently, she requires a highly disproportionate amount of damage to destroy for a disk with only four toughness.  Vampire Counts also possess a stable of cards that help make her untouchable… *plays card* “Oh you can’t pin me.”  *plays card* “By the way, you can’t deal counter damage to me, either.” *plays card*  “And I will resurrect the angry dead on top of anything that gets too close to me, mkay?”  Pretty tough to deal with, sometimes.

 

Drycha: 

 

Six toughness standard, and you know you will run skin to bark with her, so it’s really more like eight if necessary.  Or maybe it’s nine with an empowerment, because why not?  If you bring some dryads along for the ride, you have a pretty tanky front line, albeit one that might not throw down the most damage in melee.  Definitely a tank-oriented hero, and there’s not a lot else to say about her. 

 

I thought about throwing her in with the support heroes, as her ability obviously enhances the rest of you forces, but until we see more forest disks (and I REALLY want a treeman and some treekin!) I think of her six toughness as being her defining trait. 

 

Helga: 

 

Five swift counter and magic resistance make her a bear to bring down…especially if she is surrounded by swift hammerers just waiting to pile on anything that pins her.  The range restriction on her ability means it primarily influences combats right next to her, so I see it as being more tanky/defensive than as a support role.  It is ideal for getting enemies off of your other disks in the front line, and lets you be more defensive. 

 

That’s it for the tanks—tough, resilient heroes who can hang around to the endgame and become a thorn in your side.  Next up, look for the section on the final two categories of heroes: Support and Ranged!

Edited by Jedhead

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The final "installment" of my personal rantings is here.  We will begin with category four...

 

4. Support

 

These heroes are a mixed bunch.  Some can magic you a bit, some have decent combat stats, one is Volkmar, and just sucks…(Okay, I won’t pick on him anymore—he gets you extra squad points!)  All told, though, their defining characteristic is not the aforementioned statistics, but is their ability to aid the rest of the squad in some way.  You take them for their ability or squad-enhancing role—stats, if they are there, are just gravy.

 

Heinrich: 

 

Vampire Counts are all about reanimate, and if you are taking Heinrich it is most likely for his ability to bring skeletons swarming back from the dead.  Three magic meets the hero baseline, and his baseline toughness is impressive for a magic user, but you probably aren’t taking him for that, and if you are, you would be served much better by Isabella or Mannfred in a combat role.  Reanimate those skeletons, or you are doing it wrong!

 

I actually find him to be the least beneficial of the VC heroes, but I dislike skeletons, so I may be biased.  I think Isabella is just flat-out better, and Mannfred is an improved reanimation platform, but to each his own!

 

Kairos: 

 

Again, like Heinrich, he packs a decent magical punch, has high toughness, and even adds flying to boot, but his stats don’t really jump out at you in any particular area, so he is not really a combat hero.  Why take him?  Probably so you can drop a Bloodthirster directly on somebody’s head.  Also is useful for dropping the plaguebearer stinkbomb right in the middle of an opponent’s empowered formation.  Overall, a piece that shines in support, and definitely not a front-line combatant.  If chaos casters ever become critical for command cards, his value could spike as well, though Archaon also has that part down pat. 

 

Alarielle:

 

Has some very useful combos, all of which use her healing ability in a support role.  She enhances Tyrion or a sun dragon nicely, can let you use a Hellblaster with impunity, and really just makes anything with stamina that much better.  Her swift counter helps protect her somewhat, though she needs to stay out of heavy combat.  Her magic attack is weaker than others, but pairs nicely with her support role and her need to stay out of the scrum.  Additional points to build your regiment could also come in handy.  Overall classification: support all the way.

 

Mannfred: 

 

Mannfred is a weird disk, in my opinion (well, the VC are a weird army, but that is another discussion).  Mannfred seems designed to do everything that heroes can do, and do it moderately well.  When I first saw his stats spoiled I thought that there must be a Mannfred fanboy on the design team:  “Let’s make a disk with solid, baseline combat stats.  Let’s also give it magic three.  Let’s give him an extra wound!  I know, let’s give him the highest value of a race-specific keyword as well!”  And there you have it: Mannfred.  

 

His main role, though, in my mind, is to reanimate any beefy allies hanging around your discard pile.  If you are jumping into heavy combat with him, he will do alright, but you are probably not getting the most use out of him as he will quickly be pinned and lose most of his utility.  He is also an excellent back-ranks lurker; when your depleted enemy’s forces finally hack their way through endless waves of reanimated minions, Mannfred is hanging out with multiple stamina, magic blasts, and good combat stats.  He can be a real pain to bring down late-game if he has anything left to help him.

 

Volkmar: 

 

For as angry as he looks, Volkmar’s combat stats are not that scary.  He has weak caster-like, below-baseline stats on a disk with no magic ability, and even when empowered only just manages to raise himself to the hero “standard.”  His ability has a nice propensity for arriving where it is needed most, though, and when he is activated with the right card, he can throw down an empowerment twice, so that is something.  Not the most broken combo ever, but not a bad one either.  Really, though, I run him mostly for the extra points he provides, and for the fun of it, as he makes priest-themed armies more fun.  The extra points and the ability=support, and you won’t be taking him anytime soon for his combat stats. 

 

Karl Franz: 

 

Karl is a stud. He has a gryphon, he has a sweet hammer, he flies, he deals impacts hits, he has at-baseline or above-baseline stats everywhere…and that is all secondary

 

Talk about support…just look at that ability!  Knights Panther are scary.  Knights Panther that smack you around twice every round are even scarier.  Do you like Teclis or Sun Dragons?  Well, I like both, a lot, and they just got better too!  Actually, there is no unit that is not better when it gets to be used twice, and rally makes the whole situation even more fun at times.  Even if you don’t use the ability, it’s not like a 5, 5, 5 flying/impact disk isn’t welcome to join the fight.  Karl simply delivers as the ultimate coordinator of your forces, the perfect support hero, or as front-line general, and we will end the category with him.

 

I sum, support is a varied bunch.  Their stats do not define the category, but rather, the abilities that they offer your forces.  Select them for what their abilities do for your army, and anything else is just the icing on the cake. 

 

5. Magic/Ranged Damage

 

I sincerely hope that this group will fill out with future expansions, maybe with a few truly dedicated ranged heroes (bows, anyone?).  It consists currently of two individuals whose sole purpose is to deal out ranged damage.  I though about lumping them in with support, but the fact is, these guys lack the army-enhancing vibe of the heroes listed above, and care solely about dropping magic on you in the worst way possible. 

 

Teclis: 

 

Teclis is without a doubt my personal favorite character from the fluff, so I like running him in game as well...I will try not to fanboy too much, here.  His below-baseline stats in combat are spot on, as is his unparalleled magic value.  There really isn’t too much more to say…he exists solely to drop magic on you, and be completely immune to the attempts of lesser magic users to stop him. 

 

Obviously, he pairs amazingly well with Speed of Asuryan, and is the best base in-game for casting the always-popular Arcane Attack, not to mention his ridiculous value when he buddies up with Karl.  Teclis is the closest thing we have in the game right now to a traditional glass cannon, at least as far as heroes are concerned.

 

Ikit Claw: 

 

Ikit, like Teclis, has no other purpose as far as your army is concerned aside from zapping his foes with magic—at long range!  This qualified him to join this select club of heroes who really deal ranged damage above all else.  Of course, Ikit is no slouch in close combat, either, as his baseline stats are impressive for a caster.  Overall, a solid combatant on multiple fronts, and a character just waiting for more of an army to lead!

 

And that sums it all up.  Please feel free to comment, disagree, etc; the more the merrier.  I am just so excited about this game I am willing to spend hours creating posts like this...I am even more willing to talk about it with other human beings!

Edited by Jedhead

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow.  Awesome breakdown.  I'll need some time to digest all of that.  You should consider posting this over at BGG too.  I think they get a bit more traffic, and I think this analysis is pretty darn useful.  Even if someone disagreed with something here, it's a great place to start when looking at how to use your hero's.  Do you think some of the hero's you mentioned as almost belonging to a different category, would move to the the other category depending on what they are being fielded with?  In other words, do you feel like hero's change roles based on their armies composition?  For instance, Azhag in an army that sports the arcane attack, brain bursta, and fist of mork card.  Does he become a ranged hero?  Or just 5x as scary?

 

I know I'm asking a ton here, but I'd love to see a similar analysis of all of the units.  I know, I know...  You may as well start a blog if you're going to do that...  Or just write a book, and be done with it. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, I do think that how you kit out a hero can change their role significantly, or maybe not change it, so much as it expands it.  The more roles you can "add" to your hero's repertoire, the more effective they become across the board.  My thinking goes as follows:

 

Heroes are (usually) naturally very good at one role due to their stats and abilities.  They will always be strong in that area, and are a threat even with no upgrades to their abilities.  That is not to say, however, that such upgrades are impossible.  I would say that Azhag deployed as you indicated above would essentially fill at least two roles, the ranged hero and the impact hero.  His extra stamina already makes him a little bit tanky, and in another sense, he even becomes a hunter-killer to certain degree with all of the magic cards as his burst damage from the cards can clear opposing units off of him.  His increased effectiveness thus makes him much more scary, as he can now dabble in multiple roles.  You can no longer simply pin him, nor can you ignore him.  Multiple roles = increased danger.

 

To use another example, Tyrion can be protected with the shield of spahery, Isha's blessing, and empowerment token to make him into a hunter-killer who also tanks very effectively.  Toss Alarielle in and he is a total pain in the butt to kill, which in turn, makes him much more dangerous to your opponent.     

 

In this manner, you could expand the roles of certain heroes to make them more dangerous to your opponent, but you never have to sacrifice their initial role--it's always there as a back-up plan/enhancement to whatever else you put on them. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Additional analysis on the base army units will further this discussion, but here is a teaser:

 

I think that the type of hero you select can really impact army building, as you want any good army to fulfill a minimum of two roles, and hopefully, it will fill even more.  Thus, if you want to go heavy ranged, you will also want to supplement that with some tanks or some hunter-killers to help keep the enemy off of them while they get the job done.  A hero can help fill one of the roles, but may need help in other areas.

 

Case in point:  Teclis is all about the ranged damage, and in my experience, he benefits greatly from having a sun dragon, Tyrion, or some other form of heavy-combat unit around to help him deal with opposing heavies.  The role diversification makes both parties more difficult to deal with.  Conversely, taking Tyrion and Alarielle means that you can be very aggressive with Tyrion as a combat unit, which frees up the rest of your list-building to feature more ranged damage from your rank-and-file.  This gives you hunter-killer, ranged damage, and a support piece, so everyone is more dangerous.

 

That said, you could always go super-ranged or all-melee, but I find these lists to be a little less successful than a more balanced approach.  The more roles you can occupy, the more responses you have to a given situation—you are not simply stuck with ten copies of the same unit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is a very nice analysis, and pretty accurate from what i have experienced.

 

I was thinking about it at work, for Infantry that fall in the Assassin/Hunter Killer category, the Wood Elf Wardancers definitely fit, becoming 5/5 Swift/Swift when attacking their target as long as they aren't pinned, and Daemonettes fall there as well, Swordsmen of Hoeth maybe, they are kind of brawler-ish with their stat line even with the 5 Swift attack, and only 5 movement compared to Wardancer and Daemonette 6, the Tomb Banshee is another Maybe.

 

Honestly I would like her a lot better with a minor change. In my opinion her skill should be 1d6-1 Min 1, and -maybe- 1 more move. I can understand why they went with 1d6-2, because 1d6-1 that is a 1/6 chance of just destroying chunks of an your opponent's army. However, 1d6-2 with no minimum damage, she has a 2/3 chance of being relatively useless, 1/3 of completely useless, 1/3 of being mostly useless with 1 or 2 damage, 1/6 of being a little bit of a threat with 3, and 1/6 of doing 4 damage.

 

1d6-1 min 1 makes her 1/3 of being mostly useless with 1 damage, 1/3 of being useful with 2-3 damage, and 1/3 of being a threat with 4-5. 

 

As I said, I can somewhat understand why they elected 1d6-2, because statistic wise, you have a 2/3 chance of doing something. However, math wise that isn't the case, since the average roll of a d6 is either 2.5 or 3.5 which..is either nothing or 1 damage on average, and considering she is a priority target for range and really has a Toughness 5, not Toughness 3 half Physical, a 1/3 chance of being useless is just bad odds and bad model.

 

Edit: 1d6-2 with a minimum of one doesn't fix her issue from a math/average point of view, because then she becomes 1/3 of doing 1 damage which, still isn't good for her.

 

Edit Edit: Fixed probability math problems..I think I got them all

Edited by Westonard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is a very nice analysis, and pretty accurate from what i have experienced.

 

I was thinking about it at work, for Infantry that fall in the Assassin/Hunter Killer category, the Wood Elf Wardancers definitely fit, becoming 5/5 Swift/Swift when attacking their target as long as they aren't pinned, and Daemonettes fall there as well, Swordsmen of Hoeth maybe, they are kind of brawler-ish with their stat line even with the 5 Swift attack, and only 5 movement compared to Wardancer and Daemonette 6, the Tomb Banshee is another Maybe.

 

Honestly I would like her a lot better with a minor change. In my opinion her skill should be 1d6-1 Min 1, and -maybe- 1 more move. I can understand why they went with 1d6-2, because 1d6-1 that is a 1/6 chance of just destroying chunks of an your opponent's army. However, 1d6-2 with no minimum damage, she has a 2/3 chance of being relatively useless, 1/3 of completely useless, 1/3 of being mostly useless with 1 or 2 damage, 1/6 of being a little bit of a threat with 3, and 1/6 of doing 4 damage.

 

1d6-1 min 1 makes her 1/3 of being mostly useless with 1 damage, 1/3 of being useful with 2-3 damage, and 1/3 of being a threat with 4-5. 

 

As I said, I can somewhat understand why they elected 1d6-2, because statistic wise, you have a 2/3 chance of doing something. However, math wise that isn't the case, since the average roll of a d6 is either 2.5 or 3.5 which..is either nothing or 1 damage on average, and considering she is a priority target for range and really has a Toughness 5, not Toughness 3 half Physical, a 1/3 chance of being useless is just bad odds and bad model.

 

Edit: 1d6-2 with a minimum of one doesn't fix her issue from a math/average point of view, because then she becomes 1/3 of doing 1 damage which, still isn't good for her.

 

Edit Edit: Fixed probability math problems..I think I got them all

 

I am chewing my way through all of the units now, so look for more on this soon.  Heavy infantry I classify differently than the hunter-killers, and more or less split them into Duelists and Brawlers.  I will hopefully be able to post this stuff either tomorrow or the day after--maybe tonight if miracles happen. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great analysis,

 

I would like to suggest splitting up the Impact heroes into 2 groups.  The first group I will call the Impact heroes and I would keep Azhag, Grom, and Archaon in this group.  I think what sets them apart from the other Impact heroes you named is a couple things.  When I think of these disks I think of them leading the charge.  These disks are all ideal for breaking the enemies front line.  Rush in, pin as many things as possible, deal splash damage, and watch their minions clean up whatever is left.  What allows them to be successful is their high attack, larger disk size (for crowd control), and their ability to damage multiple disks.

 

I would move Grimgor and Lokhir to a new classification with Valkia.  The name I came up with is Bodyguards.  These three all have either swift attack or fear paired with subpar defensive stats.  I call them bodyguards because I see them as counters to the Hunter-Killers, and are there to kill whatever comes to pin your Impact heroes or other heavy hitters.  These heroes I like to hold behind my front line, and save their activations as long as possible, to ensure that they end up on top of whatever scrums form during the round.  The bodyguards are relatively useless as soon as they are pinned, which ironically makes them more defensive in my opinion.  Without the disk size and splash damage of the Impact disks they do not trade very well in combat when rushed into battle first (aside from the "Holy Grail of pins" by Lokhir).  In response to Westonard, I would classify the Daemonettes, Wardancers, and probably Swordmasters in this new group, instead of hunter-killers, because of the high damage output while attacking but uselessness while pinned as well (Save them for the top of the scrum).

 

I like Luthor as a Hunter-Killer (High stats all around and can lead the charge to take out the single best unit on the other team and is guaranteed to dish out damage from the bottom of the scrum too.  (This relies on him being empowered but then again he wouldn't really be a tank if he wasn't empowered)

 

I was trying to come up with a way to split up the Supports as well (Supports that are competent at something besides their ability? (Not you Volkmar or Alarielle. Heck at least Kairos has Magic 3)

 

What do you guys think?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Welcome to the forums, and your name is truly the greatest! 

 

Also, you can't hide...DeathByRockLobba is my little brother, everyone, and I got him hooked on this game!  I am truly happy to see him on these forums.  He is my chief opponent on the table top...and apparently in this thread as well. ;)

 

I like your suggestions, and agree in part with the impact hero distinction. Grimgor in particular doesn't have the same massive impact while pinning.  However, the massive impact is only part of it--most of their classification depends on their utter lack of impact if pinned.  That is even more defining in some ways, so I'm not sure I would move him (and particularly Lokhir) out of this group.  With more Dark Elves, Lokhir could become support for sure, but until then, I would leave him here.  I like the bodyguard idea, though, maybe as a sub-group of impact heroes.  I am just too stubborn to give up my classifications. :)  

 

I don't think that Valkia belongs with Grimgor and Lokhir, either, as she will most likely be empowered, and will not stink when pinned due to the swift counter.  She is definitely built more to hunt and kill than the other two in light of all the swiftness and flying. 

 

I agree you could remove Luthor from the ranks of the tanks (we should all rap in this forum) due to his extreme rage-issues, but I think of him as a tank for sure...albeit one with killer tendencies. 

 

I also considered splitting support as you suggested.  My split would have been into tactical and strategic.  I would say strategic would be more army-wide effects that have no real replica elsewhere (Karl Franz or Kairos, who enable wholly-new game-changing situations), while tactical would be more the type that actually benefits a specific engagement or hero in close support (Volkmar or Alarielle). 

 

*Edits everywear cuz bad garmmres and splelling...

Edited by Jedhead

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Way to blow my cover!

 

Excuse my misplacement of Valkia :( I don't own my own disks (I use Jedhead's) and I completely missed Valkia's ability in the google image... After actually reading her ability, yes, she is definitely a Hunter-Killer 2nd only to Chakax in my opinion.  That being said I still think Grimgor and Lokhir deserve their own classification.  Their play style is so different than the other impacts despite their base stats having similarities. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with what you said, about the sword dancers and daemonettes being units you always send in after activation, because they are so fragile when pinned. I don't know if I would consider them body guards though. To me that seems more like a role the Greatswords or the elf spearmen would fill, since they have swift counter attack, and force your opponent to move around them, and with the right terrain or even in a good defensive position, could be a definite roadblock to getting to your pinata caster candy or support heroes. Swordmasters would fill this role as well, they are brawlers when pinning, but better when pinned.

Edited by Westonard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 Grimgor and Lokhir deserve their own classification.  Their play style is so different than the other impacts despite their base stats having similarities. 

 

I agree, they play differently, particularly Grimgor.  I may have overreached on the impact hero classification, as the main point is simply not wanting to be pinned and there is definitely room for more nuance. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bodyguard probably isn't the best word for it. I agree that the defensive swift counter units have a more bodyguard feel especially while holding the line for your casters. Grimgor can't save your casters from being impacted because he is purely reactive. I suppose he could block for the casters but that definitely isn't very efficient. :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would say maybe opportunist would be a better term, as it characterizes his use a bit better--he jumps in when he knows he can get away with it, late in the activation phase.  That distinguishes him from, say, Azhag, who likes to be one of the initial contact disks plowing into the enemy on an early activation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...