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The Defender will be the next Tie Advanced

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I've also noticed that my opponents are never surprised by the white 4-k turn.  It's pretty much a given I'm going to use it when the opportunity is there.  That being said, my defenders are usually the last ship standing, and they can definitely hold their own in that situation.

 

 

The trick I've found is that, yes, the K-turn is never going to surprise people. However, the 3-turn sometimes will. Or even the 1- or 2-turns. For some reason, a lot of pilots in this game treat hard red moves that are not K-turns as things that nobody should ever do. It's the same problem people had with shuttles when they came out. The same applies to flying over rocks. You can surprise a lot of people and gain a signficant advantage by doing the things you're "not supposed to do," because they may not be prepared for it.

 

That's not to say that you should excecute red maneuvers every turn just to be crazy. But if you think your opponent is playing that 4K, you might be able to set them up by doing a 1-turn or 1-bank instead.

 

The actual movement options on the Defender are actually terrific outside of stress. It has every forward, bank, and turn option except for the 1-forward. It's one of only two Imperial ships that can even perform a 1-bank (the other being the Bomber).

 

 

 

One concern though is paying 9 points to upgrade a 3HP ship you are gonna pay X-wing/B-Wing prices for Tie Fighter Durability (albeit slightly more punch than an X-wing/B-wing)

They do have the option of the defense version of Howlrunner backing them up. A reroll on defense is going to do a lot for the survivability of these ships, who will be throwing four red dice without range penalties.

Edited by PhantomFO

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Oh, and for the people who think Autothrusters will solve every problem Soontir has against turrets, take a closer look at your Decimator. If you look very closely inside that front window, you just might see Vader making a rude gesture at you.

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I don't quite get the knock of the white K-turn being predictable.  It doesn't really matter that it's predictable, it's still a huge advantage.  It's one more direction you can attack from that the other player has to account for.  Additionally, you can combine the K-turn + Barrel Roll, allowing you to do maneuvers that no other ship can pull.  

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The actual movement options on the Defender are actually terrific outside of stress. It has every forward, bank, and turn option except for the 1-forward. It's one of only two Imperial ships that can even perform a 1-bank (the other being the Bomber).

 

One out of three small base. I know we all tend to forget about the Advanced, but it still exist. Then there is the big base: Firespray, Lambda and Decimator. But yeah, the 1 bank is a good option for a slow advance that I like to use with the Defender.

 

From my perspective, the Defender fit more into the heavy hitter/tank group than the nimble one. The nimble one being the Tie Fighter, Tie Interceptor and Tie Phantom; the heavy hitter/tank being the Tie Bomber, Tie Advanced and Tie Defender. It's sturdy and can pack a punch, especially with a HLC. But if you are more into highly maneuvrable sneaky craft, don't take it, cause you'll be disappointed.

 

The white k-turn should not be considered as the only viable option, but under the right circumstances, it can help you stay in the fight 1-2 more turns.

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Hothie faced Vessory in the final round of flight one at worlds.

I was thinking I should check the Worlds and other tournament reports to see how often the Defender does show up.

Myself I have a list with Rexler, w/HLC and 3 Black squad ties with Predator that I rather like.

 

 

Hothie actually faced 2 Vessory squads. And it looks like every Defender pilot had a showing. 

 

This reminds me that I need to finish my Worlds 2014 scripts done tonight to parse the lists, with weighted averages etc. It should be done tonight, although you can see Sozin's website for some details in the meantime.

 

Defender's represented about 4% of all points spent, which is only slightly below average. However their overall placement in the tournament was very poor. None of them made it into the Top 32.

 

 

Out of the 200+ squads, saying anything that didn't make the cut had a poor showing is not the full story. There were a lot of very unique squads that missed the cut because of tie breakers, which can randomly screw people. The 4-2's should all be equally considered good showings. Since Hothie made it in with a 4-2 record, the second Vessory squad he faced likely ended up 3-2, barring him being paired up or down. That is fairly reasonable showing. 

 

 

You are correct, you need to look at some sort of weighted average. Right now I just have one weighted average programmed, and it is attendance / final ranking.

 

Using that metric, the Defenders are still near the bottom of the list. I may try using a 2nd weighting method as well, that is less top-heavy.

 

 

The difference is that none of them  even with decent showing at 64 could even make it into top THIRTY TWO.   Its just so highly suboptimal.  If you've ever played the DPS lists Defender shuttle Phantom/Interceptor, you'll find out why.  That defender gets easily juked by the Falcon and the boosting. 

 

--

 

MJ i think that the current model does show some interesting tidbits.  It really considers how dominant and consistent ships are, versus a few crop ups at the lower levels of a tournament.  losing levels.  

Edited by Blail Blerg

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Pilot stats for Worlds 2014 has been updated, see here:

 

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/125842-2014-worlds-results/#entry1313343

 

The three % columns are:

  1. equal weighting (if you bring it, it counts the same as everyone else even if you lose all your games)
  2. Weighting #1 that is fairly "gradual": weighting = attendance - placement
  3. Weighting #2 that is "top heavy" (old method): weighting = attendance / placement

TIE Fighters, TIE Phantoms, Z-95s, and YT-1300 all had effectiveness coefficients greater than 1: the top-heavy weighting (weighting #2) was higher than weighting #1, which in turn was higher than equal weighting.

 

The HWK-290 had a weighting #1 greater than equal weighting, but weighting #2 was lower than equal weighting.

 

The remaining 11 ships all had purely negative effectiveness coefficients: weightings #2 and #1 were less than their equal weighting.

 

The results in the Top 32 generally matched the results looking at all of the squads.

Edited by MajorJuggler

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Errata the printed barrel roll to printed boost.

Errata white k4 to white k3 and white k5.

 

Ship fixed. 

 

Also errata in a green bank... even if it's a 3, it needs a way to shed stress besides going straight.

 

Even SHUTTLES have a green bank. The only ship that doesn't have a green bank besides the Defender is the Y-Wing, and that has a turret... and is nearly half the price of the Defender.

Edited by Koshinn

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You see i like that.

 

To me the defender is engines with guns attached.

 

Its great at stormin in but doesnt turn too well.

 

Its the ME262 of Xwing.

 

 

They used to have to scream in at 400mph towards bomber formations then let rips with rockets and cannon... then they'd soar upwards to lose enough speed to be able to turn around and accellearte for another pass.

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You see i like that.

To me the defender is engines with guns attached.

Its great at stormin in but doesnt turn too well.

Its the ME262 of Xwing.

They used to have to scream in at 400mph towards bomber formations then let rips with rockets and cannon... then they'd soar upwards to lose enough speed to be able to turn around and accellearte for another pass.

But that's not how the Defender works in the EU. And frankly that's not how maneuvering works in space. Your ability to change direction in space is 90% dictated by the same factors as straight line acceleration, and the rest is by maneuvering thrusters, which really don't play a huge difference. But the Defender has excellent maneuvering thruster placement as it's closer to a sphere than any other star wars fighter. Edited by Koshinn

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Yeah well, in WW2 there were no floating rocks in the middle of the air, planes weren't restricted to fly inside a 500m x 500m battlefield and 'Boom and Zoomers' had a significant speed advantage over their targets, not to mention they can fly in 3D.

 

So excuse me if WW2 real tactics doesn't translate well to a boardgame that has nothing to do with WW2.

 

Unlike WW2 fighters, the defender has to cope with asteroid placement, can't gain enough distance from its targets to turn safely and doesn't have a speed advantage over other ships.

 

Tough it has the 'Boom', it totally lacks the 'Zoom'.

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If you can keep the Defender alive until there's a one-on-one situation, it'll take any small ship apart. Took my opponents a while to realize that Wedge or Farlander solo has no chance against a Delta with an ion cannon.

Except a Corran, a Phantom, a Soontir, etc...

 

Yes, it can take on glass cannons with low maneuveribility where the defender can abuse the 4k turn. But there are plenty small sized ships which are better and more cost efficient at a 1on1 and they also have an easy time against those targets.

Edited by DreadStar

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The irony of ion weapons (or ion-y), especially turrets for rebels for ages was that they actually worked better against rebels.

 

early in the games dev, given that only really Y wings had ion turrets and they were shooting usually against AG 3 or more ships....

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I think alot of people try to use it like an interceptor and are disappointed, but that's not it's role, use it more like you'd use a large base ship in the opening turns take your time range is your friend as you tear off the other guys shields then you dive in to Finish Things.

Autothrusters dramatically up the interceptors chances against turrets which is great but there will always be that unlucky turn where you take a hit and a crit and direct hit turns up, defenders just don't pop as easily.

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See, what happens when you choose the wrong S-loop? What happens if they are going the opposite direction of where you thought they would go? Suddenly, you have a few ships you can't shoot, that will likely have a few shots on you due to Iggy's large size. 

Try it out with advanced sensors on a ship with impulse and barrel roll as options, you will notice that's hardly an issue.

 

@Hobojebus

 

I doubt people are still trying to play it like an interceptor, in first place, many months have passed and experimenting phase is done, and in second place, it is blatantly obvious that it can't be played as an interceptor because it has a white k-turn paired with only straight greens and no impulse. What defines interceptor play are the green options to remove stress while remaining fairly hard to predict and the ability to do two movement actions, something, a defender really can't do.

 

Or have you seen many lists with PtL, engine upgrade defenders lately ?

Edited by DreadStar

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What i implied with the EU and PtL is people trying to play it out as an interceptor as you stated, which would mean people trying to play it like an interceptor.

 

I actually enjoy playing the defenders, and have tried it a lot and taking them to tournaments. Jonus brothers is one of my favorite lists to play, but it's not on the level of other lists. If I actually care about winning the tournament, i wouldn't bring it (or any list with a defender), after having extensively played and tried to make lists with defenders work. My ability may be lacking and i didn't find the proper way to play them in the currents waves, but i doubt i am alone in my testings.

 

Internet wisdom doesn't matter, most people who try to optimize lists don't follow internet wisdom except to have notions of what he might play against and how to build and play their lists. IE : Worlds, the winner didn't take the already spread through internet Fat han, but a variety that would be favored against those Fat Hans.

 

And at the end, that's the list that make a showing on the tournament data collected, where the defender is very far from being in top spots regularly. It's far fetched to think that people haven't really tried the defender or give it a go.

 

Maybe the comparison with the Tie Advanced is too extreme, because the ship itself isn't a complete paperweight, but there are legitimate concerns about its performance.

Edited by DreadStar

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I think that this brings up an interesting question:  do you think that FFG would correct/re-balance the cost on a re-print of the ship?  It seems an easy fix, seeing at how the ship really isn't playable in a competitive format, what are the chances that they would release either a "corrected" xpac of the ship in subsequent re-stocks or come out with something like the "TIE Defender Mk 2" xpac.  Just a thought...

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I think that this brings up an interesting question:  do you think that FFG would correct/re-balance the cost on a re-print of the ship?  It seems an easy fix, seeing at how the ship really isn't playable in a competitive format, what are the chances that they would release either a "corrected" xpac of the ship in subsequent re-stocks or come out with something like the "TIE Defender Mk 2" xpac.  Just a thought...

 

0% chance. Things like cost and stats can't be errata'd. 

 

Also, people are focused too much on the top tier level. Not all ships are going to be gatekeepers in the meta. It is okay for a ship to be a niche ship or more viable in a fun tournament. 

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